A technical question

[etrigan]

I'm a little bit confuse about the following: Do you have to declare the full effect of your powers to the target?

For exemple, our fighter challenge the ogre chieftain. Does the Ogre known that he`s mark and that he has a -2 penalty to attack roll and risk interrupted attack if he don`t try to attack the fighter?

Another exemple: Our group is attacked by a mercenary swordmage and his allies. The swordmage use Ageis of Assault again our dwarf barbarian. Does the dwarf barbarian known the consequence of hitting one of the swordmage allies instead of him (before it`s too late and the swordmage teleport behind him to strike him)?

Our human warlord use Viper`s strike against a Kobold Dragonshield... Does the Kobold know that it will provoke an opportunity attack if he use is shifty power?

Our eladrin wizard, want to cast Scorching Burst at a group of goblins... Obviously this attack will be a lot more potent against minions. Does the DM tell us wich one are minions (or a nature knowledge roll is require to determine the type of adversary)?

My take on this is that players need to declare the full effect of their powers and the DM will have to try not to take advantage of this knowledge against the players.
On the other side, the DM should keep secret the effect and let the players try some knowledge rolls to idenfify the possible effect or the source ... but monster knowledge rolls are fine for 'monster' but how do you known that the mercenary is a swordmage? Does a nature roll of 20 can reveal is name, type ,keywords and powers? I don`t think so... Is it common knowledge then? For exemple, if you are cursed by a warlock, do you known by default that you will loose more hit point if he it you? How do you known that you have been cursed by a Warlock since there is not apparent effect?

Thanks!

[Whimsy Chris]

I think you always disclose an effect that you have put on another. This is true in both a metagame and internal sense.

For example, when a Fighter marks an enemy, that enemy knows that if he attacks another he's going to let down his guard and the fighter will have a chance against him.

This works both ways. If a monster puts an effect on a player, the player knows unless the text says otherwise.

That's how I see it at least.

[TGZ101]

I've always played it the same way Whimsy does. If a fighter marks an enemy then that means the fighter is doing something to draw that enemy's attention and keep it on him. Roleplaying wise this could be banter a la Spiderman, an offensive fighting stance (getting up in his face and trying to get him off guard), or a magical compulsion in the case of the swordmage (a strange green glow surrounds the enemy).

It makes much more sense when you look at it through roleplaying terms and not strictly game terms. When my fighter marks a target I play it up as him making it look like his guard is down, giving his enemy an incentive to attack him (like feinting).

It's also much more fun to look at this way. Simply saying "He's marked you, take a -2 penalty," isn't very exciting. Something like "The Chieftain presses down upon you aggressively with his greataxe, attempting to take your full attention. Trying to attack anyone else at this point will cause a -2 penalty," is more akin to what I believe the game is trying to do.

[ProsSteve]

TGZ101 wrote:

I've always played it the same way Whimsy does. If a fighter marks an enemy then that means the fighter is doing something to draw that enemy's attention and keep it on him. Roleplaying wise this could be banter a la Spiderman, an offensive fighting stance (getting up in his face and trying to get him off guard), or a magical compulsion in the case of the swordmage (a strange green glow surrounds the enemy).

It makes much more sense when you look at it through roleplaying terms and not strictly game terms. When my fighter marks a target I play it up as him making it look like his guard is down, giving his enemy an incentive to attack him (like feinting).

It's also much more fun to look at this way. Simply saying "He's marked you, take a -2 penalty," isn't very exciting. Something like "The Chieftain presses down upon you aggressively with his greataxe, attempting to take your full attention. Trying to attack anyone else at this point will cause a -2 penalty," is more akin to what I believe the game is trying to do.

Personally it needs roleplaying 'the orc warriors eyes never seem to leave you, looks like he's got your card marked' the player may ask 'do I think I'm marked' so you can say yes.

I do however never use the -2 Marking ability of Marking for the fighters ability, anyone marked does get the Attack Of Opportunity though. Instead I let the fighter use intimidate in combat 'I cast a look at the goblin, then try to drive him away from the mage' then an intimidate check that if successfull will influence the goblins movement.
I generally make it more interactive, even having minions run away for a round when intimidated. They might not do exactly what the fighter wants and may provide a flank for someone else whilst hiding behind another party member.
Makes combats more fun and brings intimidate into the game. I set the DC's at 10 plus the HD(plus other modifiers) but the intimidate is a minor action.

[Sebastrd]

etrigan wrote:

I'm a little bit confuse about the following: Do you have to declare the full effect of your powers to the target?

For exemple, our fighter challenge the ogre chieftain. Does the Ogre known that he`s mark and that he has a -2 penalty to attack roll and risk interrupted attack if he don`t try to attack the fighter?

Yes. This question specifically was answered on Ask Wizards. A creature is always aware of any effects on it. If a creature is marked, it knows it's marked and what effects that entails.

[Matthew Koelbl]

Sebastrd wrote:

Yes. This question specifically was answered on Ask Wizards. A creature is always aware of any effects on it. If a creature is marked, it knows it's marked and what effects that entails.

It isn't quite as simple as that, though one can certainly run it in such a fashion.

A creature is aware of any effects upon it. It is not necessarily aware of any abilities opponents may have that might trigger on their own.

For example: Mr Fighter marks Mr Ogre. Mr Ogre knows that he is under the 'marked' condition. What he does not know is that Mr Fighter can take an immediate interrupt to attack him if he shifts away or attacks someone other than Mr Fighter, since the 'Combat Challenge' class feature is something inherent to the fighter, not to the 'marked' condition that has been placed on Mr Ogre. He does know that, as per the 'marked' condition, he takes a -2 penalty to attack anyone other than the fighter. (In flavor terms, this is represented by Mr Fighter clearly being in Mr Ogre's face, distracting him from any other targets.)

Now, it would be entirely reasonable for a DM to assume Mr Ogre knows what will happen anyway - either because fighters are common enough in the world that their abilities are reliably known, or because it is obvious that Mr Fighter is so aggressive that not giving him full attention in any fashion will be punished. And, honestly, that has generally be how I have played it - but strictly by the rules, this isn't the case. Similarly, you might take a halfway measure - saying that there are enough visual cues for Mr Ogre to have an idea of what will happen, but not know everything; he might be aware he will get attacked, but not know that Mr Fighter has the Shield Push feat and will push him 1 square if he gets hit.

Note, however, that it would be a different story if it was Mr Ogre vs Mr Paladin. The Paladin's Divine Challenge is placed upon the target directly, which means that Mr Ogre knows the full effect of the power upon him - both that he is marked, and that he will take damage for attacking a target other than Mr Paladin.

The key is generally to look at an ability and determine whether it is acting upon the opponent, or upon the PC. Occasionally it might do both - give a specific PC the ability to retaliate when a specific opponent does something, but usually it is clear where the effect is located. A few examples of each:

Effects enemies are definitely aware of:

Steel Serpent Strike: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is slowed and cannot shift until end of your next turn.

Cloak of Thorns (Level 23 Ranger Encounter Power Hit): Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage per attack. If one attack hits, the target takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn. If both attacks hit the same target, this penalty worsens to –4.

Dire Radiance (Level 1 Warlock At Will Power): Hit: 1d6 + Constitution modifier radiant damage. If the target moves nearer to you on its next turn, it takes an extra 1d6 + Constitution modifier damage.

Viper's Strike (Level 1 Warlord At Will Power): Effect: If the target shifts before the start of your next turn, it provokes an opportunity attack from an ally of your choice.

Effects enemies are not necessarily aware of:

Guardian of Faith (Level 1 Cleric Daily Power): You conjure a guardian that occupies 1 square within range. Every round, you can move the guardian 3 squares as a move action. The guardian lasts until the end of the encounter. Any creature that ends its turn next to the conjured guardian is subject to a Wisdom vs. Fortitude attack. On a hit, the attack deals 1d8 + Wisdom modifier radiant damage.

Cloak of Thorns (Level 23 Ranger Encounter Power Effect): Effect: If any adjacent creature makes an attack against you and misses before the start of your next turn, make a melee basic attack against it with both your main weapon and your off-hand weapon as an immediate reaction.

Shadow Assassin's Riposte (Level 11 Shadow Assassin Paragon Path Feature): Any adjacent enemy that misses you with a melee attack takes damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.

Effects that aren't clear:

Martyr's Smite (Level 23 Paladin Encounter Power): 4[W] + Strength modifier damage. Until the end of your next turn, any time the target deals damage, you can choose to take that damage. The target’s intended victim takes no damage but is subject to any other effects of the attack.

Riposte Strike (Level 1 Rogue At Will Power): Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. If the target attacks you before the start of your next turn, you make your riposte against the target as an immediate interrupt: a Strength vs. AC attack that deals 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

As before, it should be noted that even with the effects that aren't placed on enemies, there are often visual cues as to what is going on. The Cleric's Guardian of Faith is obviously some sort of spirit dude who will interfere in the battle - but what isn't obvious is how he does so. An enemy doesn't know that ending his turn next to it will result in being attacked - at least, not until he has seen it do so at least once.
On the other hand, the counterattacks from a Shadow Assassin's Riposte or Ranger's Cloak of Thorns could go either way. Maybe it is obvious, with the character surrounding themselves in a whirling dance of steel; or maybe that look harmless to lull enemies into a false sense of security, and retaliate instantly when enemies drop their guard. It really ends up as a DM call.

In the end, the key is just to see how the effect is worded. If something says that "the target provokes Opportunity Attacks when it shifts", it is an effect on that target and they know the effect. If something says that "an ally can take Opportunity Attacks whenever an adjacent enemy shifts", that is an effect on the ally, and enemies might not see it coming. If something says, "until the end of your next turn, you can make an Opportunity Attack on the target if it shifts"... well, that is less clear, and probably a DM call as to where the effect is located.

Now, with all that long, elaborate discussion said... 9 times out of 10, effects are on a target, and are completely obvious. Any condition on them, any (save ends) effect - all of these are instantly known to them, and the times when they don't know about something are few and far between. But they do exist - especially when dealing with Class Features like Combat Challenge - and figuring out what each side is capable of can be a very important element to many battles.

[etrigan]

Thanks alot everyone. It`s not that way that we play in 3.5, but it will make it a lot simpler in 4.0. We will try that tomorrow night.