I haven't had time to keep up with all the 4E announcements, but has a 4E version of Planescape been confirmed, any date given or any other tidbits/rumours released?
Nothing has been confirmed, mentioned, or rumored. Personally, I think that Planescape will not return to 4e, but that elements from Planescape will be incorporated into the the core cosmology.
I agree, I don't think that they'll do a Planescape campaign setting per se, but will take the lead of 3rd Edition and incorporate the parts that the designers liked the most into the core setting. This December they are releasing the Manual of the Planes, which is probably your best bet at a guide to plane-hopping campaigns. The product listing is here.
Planescape was my favorite setting, but it got screwed up before 2nd edition was even finished when they kicked the factions out of Sigil - they were the best part!
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Planescape was my favorite setting, but it got screwed up before 2nd edition was even finished when they kicked the factions out of Sigil - they were the best part!
I've heard tales of this so-called Faction War. I've never seen it myself, so I think people were just joking about it.
I haven't had time to keep up with all the 4E announcements, but has a 4E version of Planescape been confirmed, any date given or any other tidbits/rumours released?
I'd thought that Planescape would be a natural option for 4E really as really planescape campaigns are usually more supernatural in nature and the new 4E character have a slightly more supernatural feel to there abilities rather than the mundane feats of 3E fighters and the like.
I hope they do a 4E Planescape, even the Dragonmen, Eladrin and Tiefling would fit a campaign for it.I do still have my 2E Planescape stuff so I might consider doing a campaign for it.
I don't think it will happen, and if it does happen it will be a different setting with the Planescape name stitched onto it - and the potential for that makes me wish on some level that WotC doesn't touch the setting in 4e.
They've already dismantled the Great Wheel / D&D cosmology in the core 4e setting, and they've forced the new PoL cosmology onto the 4e Forgotten Realms. I'm of the firm belief that if WotC did a 4e Planescape, they'd use the generic 4e PoL cosmology as the backdrop along with the 4e flavor assumptions regarding alignment and the radical changes and/or deletions to planar creatures. You think you'll see guardinals in a 4e Planescape from WotC? The Blood War? Archons that aren't crazy, evil elementals?
Given designer comments on some of the core elements from Planescape, the design focus for 4e would very likely mangle an attempt to do a 4e Planescape. It wouldn't just be a swap of ruleset and some advancement within the setting timeline to introduce new things. It would probably be a 4e FR style destruction of the setting and wholesale, radical changes. The end product wouldn't be the same setting. It might be a planar setting with some alternate universe Sigil, but I seriously doubt it would retain the atmosphere, focus, and the majority of its unique and core setting elements.
That said, if WotC ignored my comments about 4e and such and actually approached me to work on a 4e Planescape, and if it wasn't as I think it would be, I'd jump on board to do it in a heartbeat. But honestly, I'm having a ball with Golarion's cosmology right now, much more so than my feelings -such as they are- towards anything planar 4e.
If we're lucky, WotC, after it carves up the corpse of Planescape for parts to put on a new flesh golem, will have the decency not to call the result "Planescape", but acknowledge that it's a different thing by giving it a new name.
But, given that they didn't have such decency with "D&D" or "Forgotten Realms", who knows?
James Wyatt spilled some of the beans about it in his interview in Kobold Quarterly #5.
As best I can tell from his hinting, the Manual of the Planes will adopt some of the Planescape uniqueness and add it to the WotC's own.
If that's the case that'll work fine. Although the planes became a great wheel of alignments it was a little confused(Tiamat was set in the 9 Hells...she's a powerful CE deity!!!), personally I perfer the planes as home to Demons,Devil, Daemons, Angels, Modrons and Awesome gods etc. So I think it'll be easy to manage most of the setting just by adding a Daily Use Faction Power.
The Teiflings and Eladrin are more Natural to the Planescape setting than previously in 3rd edition (Teifling took the level drop which was a pain in the butt). Even Dragonmen would be easier to accept in the planes as the Children of good dragons or a recent appearance in the planes.The 2nd edition box sets are filled with more than enough quality material to design a campaign and I already have all of them.
All in how they do it. Alot of the uniqueness will be lost on the new planes layout,however if sigel is left alone it might be workable. I have no real problem with them using the 4e system it might fit nicely if they nuke it like the realms however...sigh
Although the planes became a great wheel of alignments it was a little confused(Tiamat was set in the 9 Hells...she's a powerful CE deity!!!)
Tiamat has been the Lawful Evil dragon-queen in the Nine Hells since the 1st Ed Monster Manual. Are you confusing her with Dragonlance's Takhisis?
Although the planes became a great wheel of alignments it was a little confused(Tiamat was set in the 9 Hells...she's a powerful CE deity!!!)Tiamat has been the Lawful Evil dragon-queen in the Nine Hells since the 1st Ed Monster Manual. Are you confusing her with Dragonlance's Takhisis?
She not LE in any books I've ever read and I did have the full 1st edition books. She also has a large mass of CE Red dragon followers which reside with her. I'm pretty sure they even had her as CE in the planescape material. I'll take a look tonight when I'm back from work.
In 2nd Edition, she was a former Lord of the Nine (replaced by Bel). She was definitely not chaotic.
In 2nd Edition, she was a former Lord of the Nine (replaced by Bel). She was definitely not chaotic.
Sorry we must have been playing in a different cosmology because she was never lord of the nine. She was the arch enemy of Marduk( who slew her with a spear to one of her throats or something like that).
I ran a placescape campaign for 2 years and she was never lord of the nine in that either.But like all doubting thomas's I'll not believe it till I read it. It might be that I am confusing her with Takhisis but I remember being confused to see her in the plane she was on.
Now I donmt know where I read it but yeah she was LE. Some where buried in a mass of 2e stuff is her AL will see if I can find it ....maybe
FAST LOOK 3E BOOK BUT "Deities and Demigods" Page 93 has her listed as LE will keep looking
FAST LOOK 3E BOOK BUT "Deities and Demigods" Page 93 has her listed as LE will keep looking
That being the case I guess it must have been Takhesis I was thinkin of. Odd really but as Dragonlance books were the first fantasy novell's (other than lord of the rings ) that I read, it must have stuck with me.
well i did find a few things here is some AD&D STATS AND NOT SURE WHERE THERE FROM but here they are
also I did dig up a few planescape books I have alot of em did not find her AL but in a small book on the planes of law they do talk about them and even list both of the dragon gods and compare em....
Anyhow Tiamat is the older of the two however in the old books she was not listed as a god
I may keep looking have so much planescape stuff
well i did find a few things here is some AD&D STATS AND NOT SURE WHERE THERE FROM but here they are
also I did dig up a few planescape books I have alot of em did not find her AL but in a small book on the planes of law they do talk about them and even list both of the dragon gods and compare em....
Anyhow Tiamat is the older of the two however in the old books she was not listed as a god
I may keep looking have so much planescape stuff
To the matter at hand though, I reckon it'd be reasonably easy to implement a 4E game of Planescape merely using the old 2nd edition books and most of the faction abilities could be replicated using the 4E Powers as a basis, most would become a 1/day Power.
I've only recently been digging out my old Planescape Box sets and a number of the associated books which were very good. Much of the material included details but little in the way of stats or the like so conversion should be a doddle.
oh yeah the 4e rules could be used easiy. The issue is I think wotc will mangle the setting to make it fit when really the rules need to be made fit the setting. It would not be hard to use 4e rules with the setting as is .
Takhisis and Tiamat are both LE.
The confusion arises because the people of Krynn call Takhisis' other-planar domain "the Abyss" - which is a completely different place to the plane that the rest of the multiverse calls "the Abyss".
One Planescape supplement mocks the foolish primes of Krynn for being so confused.
I remember being briefly confused about the two, seeing as they seemed to be two different alignments, but then I realised that clearly Takhisis was simply either a chaotic aspect of Tiamat or the people of Krynn were very confused! :)
yeah krynn is often mocked more then other clueless
Planescape supplements go out of their way to point out that Tiamat and Takhisis are similar but different, likewise Bahamut and Paladine.
A pair of things to toss into the mix here:
While in 2e and afterwards, Tiamat and Takhisis were considered to be separate from one another (though both dwelling in Baator/Hell), they were the same deity in 1e in the original Manual of the Planes.
And Tiamat was only considered one of the Lords of the 9 in 1e. In 2e and 3.x, Tiamat was retroactively never one of the Lot9 given that she was a deity rather than a fiend, though she did have a unique (if at times strained) relationship with the baatezu (going so far as to have spawned a child with Cantrum).
I always applied the duck test to Bahamut/Paladine and Tiamat/Takhisis - if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. (This is especially so as Paladine's and Takhisis' Istarian names are suspiciously similar to that of their allegedly separate doubles.)
But some 'ducks' are technically geese. :D
yeah know I never liked dragon lance anyhow...and yep they were the most clueless..clueless
Planescape was my favorite setting, but it got screwed up before 2nd edition was even finished when they kicked the factions out of Sigil - they were the best part!
My favorite setting too, and especially the factions...as for Faction war: If I ignore it long enough it will go away. *puts fingers in ears* LAlaLAlaLAlaLAlaLAlaLAlaLAlaLAlaLAlaLAlaLAlaLAlaLAlaLAlaLAla
ugh I got one worse for planescape ...die vecna die...sigh
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Faction War is great. It is just what the setting needs to clear out the dead weight that the factions had become, a weak railroad club for limiting character initiative and advancement in Sigil. The Lady of Pain is at least a blatant deus ex machina with an open intent to prevent the destruction of the setting. The factions were just excuses to abuse the players if they wanted to be relevant.
Die Vecna Die while having its share of flaws was not particularly horrible in presenting post-faction Sigil, or in giving a few new twists to old NPCs.
James Wyatt spilled some of the beans about it in his interview in Kobold Quarterly #5. As best I can tell from his hinting, the Manual of the Planes will adopt some of the Planescape uniqueness and add it to the WotC's own.
Sort of like Manual of the Planes 3E tried to do and failed?
So no actual news about sourcebooks or what the cosmology would look like?
The vibe I’m getting (and I’ve nothing to support this other than gut impressions) is that the 4e cosmology could be a bit like the lovechild of Planescape and Spelljammer. The “Astral Sea” evokes the feeling of bizarre fantasy ships cruising around a sea of stars, visiting different ports as expressed as varying planar settings. Even Sigil has been described a bit like the Rock of Bral: a massive trade hub in the Astral Sea.
The vibe I’m getting (and I’ve nothing to support this other than gut impressions) is that the 4e cosmology could be a bit like the lovechild of Planescape and Spelljammer. The “Astral Sea” evokes the feeling of bizarre fantasy ships cruising around a sea of stars, visiting different ports as expressed as varying planar settings. Even Sigil has been described a bit like the Rock of Bral: a massive trade hub in the Astral Sea.
yeah It sounds like a neat setting but that's not planescape
I'm far from an expert on Planescape. The only books I got were used as references for planar adventures from the Material, not as a planehopping campaign in itself. But even at first blush I can see a change in the feel of an Astral Sea based Planescape. As the home to gods, angels and devils, the 4e cosmology feels more...I dunno...fantastic than the 2e Planescape setting. Planescape felt like a bunch of people just trying to scratch out a living in an otherwise really bizarre location. There was a neat contrast between the alien world they lived in and the mundane nature of their interests.
I don't see any residents of the Astral Sea having those same sensibilities and that may be (at my best guess) what Planescape fans may be missing the most.
Maybe going back to the Planescape vs. Spelljammer mash-up idea, we can envision an Olympus-like topography to the Astral Sea, where the glorious realms of the gods and angels and such rise up on a pinnacle of golden glory and blah blah blah. Meanwhile, the “dregs” of the Astral Sea cluster around its base…backwater planar entities with no worshippers, simple Outsiders struggling to make a living in the face of godly indifference and the occasional Githyanki pirate raid. There, religious zealouts expound the virtues of the gods in hopes of being noticed and raised to angelic status while mood-smugglers sell slightly-used Jealousy to emotionally numb Modrons.
Does that sound Planescape-y enough?
Maybe going back to the Planescape vs. Spelljammer mash-up idea, we can envision an Olympus-like topography to the Astral Sea, where the glorious realms of the gods and angels and such rise up on a pinnacle of golden glory and blah blah blah. Meanwhile, the “dregs” of the Astral Sea cluster around its base…backwater planar entities with no worshippers, simple Outsiders struggling to make a living in the face of godly indifference and the occasional Githyanki pirate raid. There, religious zealouts expound the virtues of the gods in hopes of being noticed and raised to angelic status while mood-smugglers sell slightly-used Jealousy to emotionally numb Modrons.Does that sound Planescape-y enough?
No it sounds like a mesh of spelljammer and planescape. I dont think 4e can do planescape right really. You need the outlands, sigial, the bloodwar, factions, the greatwheel and all the wonderful oddness to make it feel right anything else is a sad copy
You need the outlands, sigial, the bloodwar, factions, the greatwheel and all the wonderful oddness to make it feel right anything else is a sad copy
Well, I gave it my best.
In hindsight, a non-Planescaper like myself probably isn't the person to go to for re-imagining the setting.
You need the outlands, sigial, the bloodwar, factions, the greatwheel and all the wonderful oddness to make it feel right anything else is a sad copyWell, I gave it my best.
In hindsight, a non-Planescaper like myself probably isn't the person to go to for re-imagining the setting.
Nothing agist you fletch and they sounds cool it's just not planescape. I have almost all of the 2e planescape stuff and astral see , no outlands, no blood war, and no factions just are not planescape.
No do I think you could play planescape with 4e? Sure why not you can play it with true 20 or hell shadowrun 4 rules for all that matter.
Do I think wizards can make planescape 4e without destroying the flavor? NO. I have seen what they did to setting to make them 4e ready.
Now I would prob play in the setting you suggested but I would never call it planescape
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Honestly, it will vary from person to person. For myself, something that captures the flavor and style of Planescape would easily be what it takes to live up to the setting's legacy, and Sigil and the Factions - along with countless other elements, coudl easily fit into the design you envisioned. Other elements like the Bloodwar, the Great Wheel, the Outlands - their absence alone wouldn't be enough for me to dismiss a new setting. For others, their absence might be unacceptable, and exactly how much is key is going to change from one gamer to the next.
A very good point. To me, for instance, the Blood War is an absolutely critical element of the "feel" of Planescape. To others, maybe not so much.
If I had to list the things I considered core to Planescape, I'd say:
* Sigil (complete with inaccessibility other than via portal, Lady of Pain, factions, etc)
* The Blood War
* Reality defined by belief
* Diametrically-opposed planar races based on the traditional alignments.
* The three multiversal rules:
- The rule of three
- The unity of rings
- The center of the multiverse
Of those, only the diametrically opposed planar races is materially inhibited by 4e mechanics. Several of them (Blood War, Unity of Rings, etc.), are in strong opposition to the 4e core setting, however.
I hate 4e tying it's core setting to everything...sigh they will mangle a great many fine setting without a need to
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If I had to list the things I considered core to Planescape, I'd say:
* Sigil (complete with inaccessibility other than via portal, Lady of Pain, factions, etc)
* The Blood War
* Reality defined by belief
* Diametrically-opposed planar races based on the traditional alignments.
* The three multiversal rules:
- The rule of three
- The unity of rings
- The center of the multiverse
Grrr, post eaten.
Short reiteration of it:
I'd throw in the attitude as well. I'd like to see versions of races and characters more reflective of their original PS versions(tieflings and aasimar, the fiends, the celestials, [i]modrons[i], etc.) but that ship has sailed.
Also: Absolutely no stats for the Lady of Pain. I know there are still people complaining about the devs having the nerve to put such a thing in a D&D setting, but then Planescape wasn't really designed with their playstyle in mind.
you can not kill the lady of pain, only the foolish think of attacking the lady of pain....No stats ever. but there prob stat her out for 30 levels...sigh