So I have a bit of a pickle at this point, I have surmised some ways for this to work out but I'm looking for advice.
1) At the end of TinH, the group used good diplomacy and bartering to work out a deal with Rowyn, they aren't guild members but are somewhat partners. After everything it works in both parties interest and at this point they are working for both Lavinia and Rowyn, looking for Vanthus. As one of the players has interest in turning the Lotus Dragons into a dark force for good I see interesting roleplay here, especially since no one is too good for this to work and they know nothing of the assassinations and the like yet. But what does this do to the DIamondback scenerio in BG? Is there a good way to make it work and not be shoehorned? Maybe a rival thieves guild thinking the party Rowyn's bootlickers?
2) Speaking of BG, the party got to Kraken's Cove, fought through to Harliss and after helping her take down the savage pirates they talked with her, and made a diplomacy check. Wouldn't it be my luck they nailed a Natural 20, which we have had a s a long standing tradition as an instant success no matter the odds. So effectively they nailed the dc 40 diplomacy and got Harliss' info and one of her earrings. So since Drevoraz is only hours ahead of them, and alone while the party includes a ranger and are after him to stop his attack on the Vandorboren manor, what happens if they reach him? Would it be crazy of me to curtail it towards they can use diplomacy to talk him down but maybe add in some of the bullywugs and make it a big fight of Pcs and him vs. Bullywugs who are bloodthirsty? It just seems that he's super loyal to her and that since the earring is a pre arranged code that once shown to him if he hasn't made it to the city he may back down. What then?
Hmm won't let me edit, but I forgot one more question. If the pcs are still semi-working for Rowyn and Lavinia (secretly) later when Rowyn is supposed to sneak onto their ship and plague them, who can I use to replace her and why? Just a thought that has occured to me.
So I have a bit of a pickle at this point, I have surmised some ways for this to work out but I'm looking for advice.
1) At the end of TinH, the group used good diplomacy and bartering to work out a deal with Rowyn, they aren't guild members but are somewhat partners. After everything it works in both parties interest and at this point they are working for both Lavinia and Rowyn, looking for Vanthus. As one of the players has interest in turning the Lotus Dragons into a dark force for good I see interesting roleplay here, especially since no one is too good for this to work and they know nothing of the assassinations and the like yet. But what does this do to the DIamondback scenerio in BG? Is there a good way to make it work and not be shoehorned? Maybe a rival thieves guild thinking the party Rowyn's bootlickers?
2) Speaking of BG, the party got to Kraken's Cove, fought through to Harliss and after helping her take down the savage pirates they talked with her, and made a diplomacy check. Wouldn't it be my luck they nailed a Natural 20, which we have had a s a long standing tradition as an instant success no matter the odds. So effectively they nailed the dc 40 diplomacy and got Harliss' info and one of her earrings. So since Drevoraz is only hours ahead of them, and alone while the party includes a ranger and are after him to stop his attack on the Vandorboren manor, what happens if they reach him? Would it be crazy of me to curtail it towards they can use diplomacy to talk him down but maybe add in some of the bullywugs and make it a big fight of Pcs and him vs. Bullywugs who are bloodthirsty? It just seems that he's super loyal to her and that since the earring is a pre arranged code that once shown to him if he hasn't made it to the city he may back down. What then?
1) Both the Vanderborens and the Killanis have enemies - Another noble family would be good - Maybe even swap Rowyn and Avner... There could be that whole Romeo and Juliet thing gone bad.... Avner Spurned by Rowyn is out for revenge.He sees the PCs as rivals.
2) Delay the PCs - Make the big brawl huge if the PC's pull weapons then have the watch turn up and throw them in jail. This gives Devoraz at time least murder the old halfling servant (my PCs went ballistic and chopped him into little bits).
3) Avner can hire Diamond back - Of course the PCs wont know who it is he can also be the one trying to kill them on board the ship. Who would suspect that the rich doofus is the assasin.
Well as for the delay, I'm not too fond of railroading without good sense, so delaying them for the sake of making it go down as planned doesn't sit well overall, and the more I think about it, the more I'm left trying to decide why the mansion infiltration and bullywug combat is so important to the plot outside of save the Jade Ravens and further the pcs rep with Lavinia. To which I might have them meet the half-orcc and his bullywugs but the party finds out that the bullywugs already sent an advance that was to infiltrate and await there arrival and then the remaining bullywugs could be the advance group with the half-orcs place being taken by the chief or a general type. Feels less railroading than you get delayed and never catch him and accounts for them maybe even getting some help from him as Harliss' personal envoy and representative.
As for replacing Rowyn for Avner and then doing the Romeo and Julliete gone worse bit, I very much like it and never even thought about that.... not to mention the other zany ideas about him after his initial use on these boards (like the Avner on a dino with a big crown idea)
The way I think it's going to go down is that the pcs catch up to to Harliss' first mate and some of the bullywugs and do said diplomacy, but the bullywugs are itchin for a fight and if good diplomacy isnt had fighting will be. Meanwhile the rest of the Bullyugs (including the shaman and the Chief) have already advanced to Town using boats or Giant frog mounts or somesuch (Probably Boats) so as to be the initial strike force and are doing the siege waiting on Vanthus or Harliss man to get there so everything happens but the reasoning is a little different.
As for Diamondback and co. I think I'm going to develop Avner as 8th Dwarf mentioned and set him up to be the leader of a rival guild to the Lotus Dragons, a far worse kind that may seem the same but ends up being worse and Diamondback and crew are his guildies, attacking the party because they are as I said before "Rowyn's Bootlickers". Avner gets reworked here and I'm adding 5 levels of Rogue (but I'm thinking dropping the Aristocrat entirely and then make him an assassin?), and making his 2 commoner buddies into a 5th level Wizard, and Rogue2/Fighter3 respectively. Although they get bumped up in level depending on when they become a pain in the party behind. Funny enough this makes them fairly useful if they'll break cover during HtbM (yea right). Assumingly they and their problems will come to a head after the pcs reach farshore, depending on the parties relationship with Rowyn at that point he might make a play to assassinate her and the pcs might confront him there. SO many ideas :P
Quick thought on Avner, for his initial stats I gave him 5 levels of rogue, but the big change was his stats, I bumped up his Charisma to 14 to represent him being a good liar and seducer of many noble maidens. Also as it stood he had a Bluff of +7 at level 3 with an 8 charisma.... with his max ranks would be 6 and he'd suffer a -1 penalty due to his assumingly haughty nature and end up with a +5 Bluff, and since he didn't have the persuasive feat my only other guess was some bonus due nobility? Well he works better as is but he and his two pals might get bumped a few levels by the time they actually become a fight or I may use Turins advanced Badass template (or whatever its called, cant remember) so we'll see. Oh and also I'm using the idea that he pines for Rowyn and Diamondback is his actual lover. They are a mirror of the kind of setup that Vanthus had with Brissa, and Rowyn. Adds good roleplay, especially if it works out that he kidnaps or even kills her later or somesuch.
Well as for the delay, I'm not too fond of railroading without good sense, so delaying them for the sake of making it go down as planned doesn't sit well overall, and the more I think about it, the more I'm left trying to decide why the mansion infiltration and bullywug combat is so important to the plot outside of save the Jade Ravens and further the pcs rep with Lavinia. To which I might have them meet the half-orcc and his bullywugs but the party finds out that the bullywugs already sent an advance that was to infiltrate and await there arrival and then the remaining bullywugs could be the advance group with the half-orcs place being taken by the chief or a general type. Feels less railroading than you get delayed and never catch him and accounts for them maybe even getting some help from him as Harliss' personal envoy and representative.
As for replacing Rowyn for Avner and then doing the Romeo and Julliete gone worse bit, I very much like it and never even thought about that.... not to mention the other zany ideas about him after his initial use on these boards (like the Avner on a dino with a big crown idea)
I didn't find the festival rail-roading.I built up the festival during TBNH. I tried to make it a huge cross of Mardi Gras and Carnival of Venice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival_of_Venice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardi_gras
I had balls and dances - The Merrivanchi's while not directly opposing Lavinia were bank rolling Roywn... so lots of politics were going on. Kidnappings, seductions, attempted assassinations and a lost of social interaction.
So when the characters returned on the day of the parade they were prepared for it. They went by boat as far as they could up the canals getting stuck in precession's and boat races. The brawl happened between boats with people falling in the water.
It was different to the usual hack fest - It got the players using their skills and spells in a different way.
I like it, though my players are on foot. Luckily I have been playing up the coming festival since the beggining of TinH, saying that it is like Mardi Gras and Independance Day. I mention people n clown costumes and banners and paper dragons similiar to Chinese New Year etc. But it has just been background so I don't think they suspect it to become important :P.
I am sort of in a similar situation. My players also negotiated with Rowyn. I used a competing guild, which is larger than the Lotus Dragons (I DM in my own campaign world, so there is no Scarlet Brotherhood).
The PC's have contacts with both guilds with conflicting interests and tried to negotiate. These negotiations did not go very well, and now the larger guild is attacking the Lotus Dragons. Ultimately Rowyn will have to flee and will blame the PC's for her predicament, so she still has a reason to be a stowaway on the Seawyvern.
Incidentally, I am going to add one of the contacts of the other guild as a passenger on the ship (he specifically asked the group's rogue to arrange passage for him) and the PC's are now plotting to kill him and throw him overboard during the voyage. They will probably blame him for all the Rowyn incidents as well. Needless to say I am looking forward to the voyage.
Here are my Changes to the STAP so Far:
Avner is the leader of the Fen Sharks, the rival theieves guild of the Lotus Dragons. He is infatuated by Rowyn Kellani and tries to woo her at every turn but she spurns his advances. This infuriates him to no end, and as such he has secretly declared war on her budding guild. He has his lover, whom he settled for, Diamondback assassinate the Dockmaster and leave clues to indicate that the Lotus Dragons commited the crime. Furthermore as an act of revenge “Hammerhead” has sent his assassin to kill Rowyn’s “bootlickers” Being the twisted degenerate he is, he secretly hopes the “heroes” die and kill Diamondback so that he can be rid of her, as she has grown to close for his nerves. Two birds, one fireball so to speak. He himself a devoted follower of Hextor hopes to take Rowyn by force and with her rule the shadows of all Sesserine. Of course things never work that way, as the meddling agents of Rowyn and Lavinia will no doubt sour his plans, he’ll help “fund” Lavinia Vandorboren’s trip to the exotic locale of Farshore, where he hopes his manservants and himself to make final woprk of the meddling group.
The Stats for Avner and co. on “easy mode” are as follows (I use Notice in my own games, which is Spot & Listen combined. As such consider their spot/listen to be equal to their notice bonus, the same goes for Thievery [Sleight of hand and Open Locks] and Stealth [Hide and Move Silently]):
Avner Meravanchi CR7
Male Human Aristocrat 3/ Rogue 5
LE Medium Humanoid
Ini: +4 Notice: +1
Lang: Tradespeak (Common)
AC 18 Touch 14 Flat-Footed 14
HP 65 (8d8+16)
Fort +4 Ref +10 Will +5
Spd 30’
Melee Shortsword +10 (d6+1)
BAB +5 Grapple +5
Special +3d6 Sneak Attack, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1, Trapfinding
Abilities Str 11 Dex 18 Con 13 Int 11 Wis 10 Cha 16
Feats Persuasive, Improved Toughness, Weapon Finesse (Shortsword)
Skills Bluff +11, Diplomacy +9, Forgery +10, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) +6, Stealth +12, Thievery +12, Tumble +10, Disable Device +8, Use Magic Device +11.
Gear +1 Shortsword, +1 Glamered Studded Leather Armor, Cloak of Resistance +1, Masterwork Thieves Tools, 2 postions of Nutralize Poison, 3 Potions of Cure Moderate wounds, Potion of Bull’s Strength, Oil of Keen Edge, Potion of Blur, Scroll of Mirror Image, Scroll of Haste.
Quenge Asper CR5
Male Human Rogue 2/ Fighter 3
NE Medium Humanoid
Ini: +3 Notice: +9
Lang: Tradespeak (Common)
AC 19 Touch 13 Flat-Footed 14
HP 42 (2d8+3d10+10)
Fort +5 Ref +7 Will +2
Spd 30’
Melee Bastard Sword +9 (d10+3)
BAB +4 Grapple +7
Special +1d6 Sneak Attack, Evasion, Trapfinding
Abilities Str 16 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
Feats Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Weapon Focus (Bastardsword), Dodge
Skills Bluff +8, Stealth +10, Thievery +7, Tumble +8, Disable Device +6, Use Magic Device +8, Search +5, Notice +9.
Gear Masterwork Bastard Sword, Masterwork Heavy Steel Shield, Masterwork Chain Shirt, Masterwork Longbow, 10 arrows, 5 silvered arrows, 5 Cold Iron Arrows, Masterwork Thieves Tools, 2 postions of Nutralize Poison, 3 Potions of Cure Moderate wounds, Potion of Bull’s Strength, Oil of Keen Edge, Potion of Endure elements.
Banaby Chisk CR5
Male Human Wizard 5
LE Medium Humanoid
Ini: +2 Notice: +1
Lang: Tradespeak (Common), Abyssal, Draconic
AC 13 Touch 13 Flat-Footed 11
HP 26 (5d6+8)
Fort +3 Ref +4 Will +6
Spd 30’
Melee Dagger +2 (d4)
BAB +2 Grapple +2
Special Spells
Abilities Str 10 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 8
Feats Scribe Scroll, Combat Casting, Brew Potion, Toughness, Dodge
Skills Concentration +9 (+13), Spellcraft +11, Knowledge (Arcana) +11, Craft (Alchemy) +11, Knowledge (History) +11 .
Gear Bracers of Armor +1, Dagger, Masterwork Hand Crossbow, 10 Bolts, Cloak of Resistance +1, Potion of Blur, Potion of Cure Moderate Wiounds, Potion of Haste, Scroll of Confusion, 2 Scrolls of Fireball, Scroll of Web, Scroll of Waterbreathing.
Spells Prepared (4/4/3/2)
• 0 Level- Open/Close, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Ray of Frost
• 1st Level- Mage Armor, Magic Missile (2), Sleep
• 2nd Level- Blur, Knock, Melf’s Acid Arrow
• 3rd Level- Fireball, Haste
SpellBook
• All 0 level Spells
• 1st Level – Color Spray, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Sleep
• 2nd Level- Bear’s Endurance, Glitterdust, Knock, Melf’s Acid Arrow, Resist Energy
• 3rd Level- Dispel Magic, Fireball, Haste, Magic Circle Against Good.
I will Post My upgraded ideas after I have done them if they indeed do need done, but this is where they stand as of right now.
Here are my Changes to the STAP so Far:
Avner is the leader of the Fen Sharks, the rival theieves guild of the Lotus Dragons.
What are you going to do for SWW? Just throwing a few ideas out there.
Getting no financial support from the other Noble families, Avner backs Lavinia into a corner and forces her to accept his money to finance the trip.
Rowyn due to mounting evidence has to flee the city. She convinces Lavinia to give her passage to at least as far as fort Blackrock.
Lavinia knowing what a pain Avner is assigns him to the Sea Wyvern. Rowyn is in hiding on the Nixie.
When both Avner and Rowyn discover that other is aboard the fleet, Rowyn will attempt to assassinate Avner. Avner will eventually attempt a mutiny because he is a power hungry loony and wants to take control of the ships and Farshore.
Well as of right now I plan on Avner's role in SWW to be as is, just he's there on purpose to get an eye on the pcs and it's his man and himself that cause the sabotage and the imp, and his boy is ready to take the fall if caught. Avner has him all ready to swear he was sent by the Sharks as a test and he actually replaced the real manservent etc. Avner will of course have him "killed", but with a contengency Rez or Clone (not sure I'm thinking Rez) and what not due to the kind of money Avner has access to. He will then have his man teleport to them via some linked gate mirror things (can't remember the name) and plague the pcs the whole trip. He won't actually make a move until HtBM when stuck inland, when he thinks he has a good chance to get rid of them without any witnesses "They died in the wreck" But of course the pcs will probably kill or beat him in which case he retreats or contingency rez's and comes back for revenge later (thats when he comes riding Raptors or some such with the animal control crown or whatever)
As for Rowyn, She probably will be on Lavinia's Boat (Named for her mother as the Nixie burned during the first adventure and Lavinia had a new one commisioned for her trip) and her disgust with Avner will be quite clear (she has no clue as to his thievery ways, but he does hers) and the assassinations may actually come about (he goes to take her, she to assassinate him) and this may actually be some catalyst to blame her for all the wierd stuff.
Just a rough outline of what I'm seeing happening :P
If Avner survives till HTBM it will be nice to cause a little confusion, so that the PC's blame Avner for what Olangru is doing (or vice versa).
Good luck with the changes. I am very curious to hear how it went.