For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
How does this relate to Burnt Offerings?
Well . . .
"If the PC flees, Ven won't follow, but neither will he allow the PC [b]or any of his friends{/b] to shop in his store. Being a well-liked man in town, Ven's displeasure with the PCs incurs a -2 penalty on all Diplomacy and Gather Information checks made in the town until the PCs find some way to make things right with him."
Which leads to . . .
For want of the town's goodwill, the party decides to move on.
For want of heroes, no one raids Thistletop and stops Nualia.
For want of anyone interfering, Nualia eventually frees Malfeshnekor.
For want of power to stop her, Nualia, Erylium, & Malfeshnekor lead a huge army of goblins and crushes the town.
All for want of making a DC 20 Diplomacy roll.
And, it gets better . . .
(For the record, this did not actually happen with my group, but . . .)
I hesitate to ask...but do you think this is a problem?
CJ
I hesitate to ask...but do you think this is a problem?
CJ
Well, it does kind of derail the entire Adventure Path. :(
Creative Director
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Well, it does kind of derail the entire Adventure Path. :(I hesitate to ask...but do you think this is a problem?
CJ
This vastly overestimates how much pull Ven has in Sandpoint. Getting on his bad side won't turn the PCs into outcasts... especially if they've already proven themselves heroes by defending Sandpoint from the goblins. What it DOES do is sets up a voice of dissent in the town—while the majority of Sandpoint's citizens are singing the praises of the PCs, there's a vocal minority (Ven and his pals) who are not. Enough to probably distress some PCs who want to be loved by everyone, sure, and certainly enough to make it so that the PCs don't feel 100% universally loved, but hardly enough to force them out of town. The penalty to the skill checks his displeasure causes is intended to set up a situation where the PCs are faced with a problem they can't solve with combat, to throw a little bit of party strife possibility in the mix ("oh... I'm not friends with that guy... I like Ven!"), and to give the town a little bit of that gossipy rural feel.
In any event, if you feel that the Wrath of Ven would possibly cause too much problems, cutting the Shopkeep's Daughter encounter out of the adventure pretty much doesn't impact anything else in there...
Well, it does kind of derail the entire Adventure Path. :(I hesitate to ask...but do you think this is a problem?
CJ
This vastly overestimates how much pull Ven has in Sandpoint. Getting on his bad side won't turn the PCs into outcasts... especially if they've already proven themselves heroes by defending Sandpoint from the goblins. What it DOES do is sets up a voice of dissent in the town—while the majority of Sandpoint's citizens are singing the praises of the PCs, there's a vocal minority (Ven and his pals) who are not. Enough to probably distress some PCs who want to be loved by everyone, sure, and certainly enough to make it so that the PCs don't feel 100% universally loved, but hardly enough to force them out of town. The penalty to the skill checks his displeasure causes is intended to set up a situation where the PCs are faced with a problem they can't solve with combat, to throw a little bit of party strife possibility in the mix ("oh... I'm not friends with that guy... I like Ven!"), and to give the town a little bit of that gossipy rural feel.
In any event, if you feel that the Wrath of Ven would possibly cause too much problems, cutting the Shopkeep's Daughter encounter out of the adventure pretty much doesn't impact anything else in there...
Except . . . your own words of
I'd interpreted that as "word gets out that these heroes aren't to be trusted near jailbait daughters". A -2 isn't a large modifier; it just means a few folks might be basically "indifferent" instead of "friendly".
"Emmie, as long as you're under MY roof, you stay away from those adventurin' folks! You KNOW how they are: Turn a girl's head with fine words, then off to who-knows-where the next day!"
I'm going to agree with Jason and the others here.
A -2 to Gather Info and Diplomacy isn't all that big, especially if the party has a good spokesperson, (such as a bard with high ranks.)
It just means there's gossip going around, and possible RP challenges where the PCs try and make things better with Ven, or refute his claims to the town public. Or try and get around his purchase ban by getting friends to sneakily buy stuff at the store for them.
For want of anyone interfering, Nualia eventually frees MalfeshnekorNuala doesn't have the resources to free Malfeshnekor
Oh? How hard can it be?
Also, while she hasn't yet found the secret door, with a large goblin workforce, I am suprized that she hasn't tried a more brute force approach to reaching the trapped "demon."
And once you reach him, all you have to do is break the magic circle that is keeping him confined. As most Demonologist eventually find to their sorrow, that is shockingly easy to do.
I'm going to agree with Jason and the others here.
A -2 to Gather Info and Diplomacy isn't all that big, especially if the party has a good spokesperson, (such as a bard with high ranks.)
It just means there's gossip going around, and possible RP challenges where the PCs try and make things better with Ven, or refute his claims to the town public. Or try and get around his purchase ban by getting friends to sneakily buy stuff at the store for them.
For want of anyone interfering, Nualia eventually frees MalfeshnekorNuala doesn't have the resources to free MalfeshnekorOh? How hard can it be?
He's bound with an SRD spell which allows its caster to choose the release conditions. Including "there aren't any," which is what James has said in the past. I'm not quite sure how you get rid of that spell otherwise, though Disjunction should about do it, or Wish. Hard for Nualia to get hold of those....
I gave the spell a sensible release condition, because it would seem odd for Malfeshnekor's captors to have permanently stuck him in their base of operations. My PCs promptly worked out what it was, and went off to do it. They freed him, and the PC leader said, "There's nothing between you and the freedom you crave except me. Go for it." Bloodshed ensued, but Malfeshnekor didn't get away. Very classy, in my opinion, and a complete surprise to the GM.
Mary
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For want of the town's goodwill, the party decides to move on.
...
That would make for a less-than-heroic party of adventurers but since these do exist, a still friendly NPC pointing out that things would get better if they could just "Get things straightened up with Vinder" might do it.
If it's too late for that you could have someone from Sandpoint catch up with them and ask them to come back after a later event of the first chapter. Vinder is still pissed-off but a minority of people (or more if you like) can come around and see they are needed.
Another spin is going with the Scarnetti (who can see the potential for bad things comming up) getting them to come back with money so the family can get more influence over Sandpoint.
Just some thoughts.
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When this came up in my game, the PCs had already become friends with Amiko. She told them that she would "talk" to Ven, and although no one quite knows what transpired between the two, except me and I'm not telling, the next day Ven sheepishly approached the PCs and apologized for the misunderstanding.
** spoiler omitted **
Certainly, it might be easier for the party to "Move On," but it's kind of the point of being heroes to move beyond "the easier thing." A -2 due to the rumor-mongering of one shop-keep shouldn't ruin everything for the PCs, particularly if it's their home town and/or they have good friends there already who don't listen to the lies... which is what the adventure-path is going for.
The thing is, here, Paizo is trying to capture the feel of a small town where interpersonal conflicts do occur, relationships can be built (good or bad,) and consequences happen because of them.
If the only possible result of any action is "Everyone Loves the PCs," it doesn't feel very believable, or alive.
However, if you believe moving on is a serious possibility, or if Players are starting to get OOCly annoyed beyond reasonable levels, you could have furor die down as the town loses interest in Ven's paternal rantings and moves on to a newer scandal, causing the -2 penalties to fade away. (It wouldn't be untoward for a DM to decide this sort of thing's happened before. As written, the girl is a bit hot-to-trot, from what I remember.)
Heck, you could fabricate a new encounter in which Ven or his daughter are in danger, and the PCs have a chance to save his/her life and show him they're not cads.
Another solution would be to do the forbidden thing... talk to your group out of character, GM to Player.
Tell them the problem's not insurmountable, that they're playing heroes and they should rise above it rather than run away from it.
Tell them it's not the end of the world, and public opinion can be corrected through their actions. Encourage them to try to make up with Ven, or to convince folks not to monger rumors. It's the PC's town as much as it is Ven's.
Confess to them that Sandpoint is important to the overall arc of the path, and that dark days are approaching the town.
Tell them you don't have the time and energy to make up an entirely new campaign on your own if they decide to run off to the Land of the Linnorm Kings and join the Vikings! That's why you have the Adventure Path books!
Talk to them!