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Heh. Good thing Time is a non-biased newsource.
The American Myth is one of those myths that people can still participate in. Us small town types are still here. People can still pull themselves up by their bootstraps from nothing to something. And American Life really is not that dour. Even the poorest among us are pretty well off. :D
Heh. Good thing Time is a non-biased newsource.
The American Myth is one of those myths that people can still participate in. Us small town types are still here. People can still pull themselves up by their bootstraps from nothing to something. And American Life really is not that dour. Even the poorest among us are pretty well off. :D
Doesn't say she doesn't have a case. Just that these are the divisions in the country that are really deciding the election.
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Doesn't say she doesn't have a case. Just that these are the divisions in the country that are really deciding the election.Heh. Good thing Time is a non-biased newsource.
The American Myth is one of those myths that people can still participate in. Us small town types are still here. People can still pull themselves up by their bootstraps from nothing to something. And American Life really is not that dour. Even the poorest among us are pretty well off. :D
Shrug
Those are the divisions that always have decided elections. Small town values vs. Big City lifestyles. Urban vs. Rural. Conservative values vs. Progressive values. Satisfaction vs. Dissatisfaction.
Call it what you will. If there were no divisions, there would be no need of elections.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Never have I seen an article that illustrates more clearly that the media are elitist, and that they don't get it.
That's fine. We are constantly in danger of electing a polished president who doesn't stand for anything but agenda and personal gain, so the more snobbery ("still a pig.." indeed) such people have, the better as far as I'm concerned.
I think if you're from that segment of the population that wants to buy into her myth, you're going to see the article as elitist.
But let's be honest, does it really matter who the source is? No matter who says it, there is bias.
The same as if I posted an article about how what Sarah Palin represents is all that is good about America, there's bias.
I think if you're from that segment of the population that wants to buy into her myth, you're going to see the article as elitist.And if you are from that segment of the population who calls it a 'myth,' what would you call the attitude expressed by the author - realistic? Just curious.
I absolutely think it's realistic. A lot of what a presidential campaign is about is getting the voter to identify with you. I don't begrudge the people who can't identify with Obama. That's the battle he's fighting.
I just wish the Presidential election was more about the issues and less about the personalities.
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I think if you're from that segment of the population that wants to buy into her myth, you're going to see the article as elitist.And if you are from that segment of the population who calls it a 'myth,' what would you call the attitude expressed by the author - realistic? Just curious.I absolutely think it's realistic. A lot of what a presidential campaign is about is getting the voter to identify with you. I don't begrudge the people who can't identify with Obama. That's the battle he's fighting.
I just wish the Presidential election was more about the issues and less about the personalities.
I think the reality of the American dream, the decision to continue with the values of the past or seek out new progressive solutions, etc. are, in point of fact, issues.
But I am not sure you understood the question though. Do you think the attitude that what Palin sells is both a "myth" and a "fantasy" is a realistic attitude? Do you think it is impossible (and unrealistic to try) to follow an old-fashioned small town path to happiness and success?
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I just wish the Presidential election was more about the issues and less about the personalities.
True that. I've got Republican friends ambushing me at work to repudiate Obama's speeches or whatever with their latest talking points and I'm like, 'I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't listen to his speeches. I compared his voting record to his opponents, and that's all I care about, not how shiny his teeth are. I'm not buying a horse, I'm voting for a President.'
I could care less what was said at the Democractic convention, which my Republican friends *all* seem to have watched, and want to argue with me about, because I didn't watch the darn thing. It's a dog and pony show. Just like the Republican convention. Just like the Oscars or the Emmys. A big masturbatory wankfest that means nothing to me.
I can't wait for December, no matter who wins, just so that it will be *over* and my friends will stop trying to pick fights with me.
But I am not sure you understood the question though. Do you think the attitude that what Palin sells is both a "myth" and a "fantasy" is a realistic attitude? Do you think it is impossible (and unrealistic to try) to follow an old-fashioned small town path to happiness and success?
Specifically, I think Obama is trying to sell a certain story and John McCain/Sarah Palin are trying to sell a certain story. I think the author uses the word "myth" to describe something intangible and yet unattainable.
Both candidates/parties are selling a myth. The point is which one you agree with.
I think that the Republicans myth is unattainable because of the Democrats and what their voters want. I think the Republican myth is unattainable because America has changed a lot over the past 30 years since the Republicans first started selling this myth and it's because of technology, events happening in the world, and a global economy that the Republican myth is unattainable.
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I think that the Republicans myth is unattainable because of the Democrats and what their voters want. I think the Republican myth is unattainable because America has changed a lot over the past 30 years since the Republicans first started selling this myth and it's because of technology, events happening in the world, and a global economy that the Republican myth is unattainable.
Gotcha. Always good to know where the other guy is coming from.
Personally I think calling it a myth and a fantasy is a bit presumptious as there are those of us still living that 'myth,' and Sarah Palin has, in fact, gone from small town Mom to Governor of a state to Vice presidential candidate. Its not a made up story. :)
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I think if you're from that segment of the population that wants to buy into her myth, you're going to see the article as elitist.And if you are from that segment of the population who calls it a 'myth,' what would you call the attitude expressed by the author - realistic? Just curious.I absolutely think it's realistic. A lot of what a presidential campaign is about is getting the voter to identify with you. I don't begrudge the people who can't identify with Obama. That's the battle he's fighting.
I just wish the Presidential election was more about the issues and less about the personalities.
I think the reality of the American dream, the decision to continue with the values of the past or seek out new progressive solutions, etc. are, in point of fact, issues.
But I am not sure you understood the question though. Do you think the attitude that what Palin sells is both a "myth" and a "fantasy" is a realistic attitude? Do you think it is impossible (and unrealistic to try) to follow an old-fashioned small town path to happiness and success?
An old-fashioned small town American can still become a tyrant - just as easily as a Harvard educated elitist. The myth is that one lifestyle is somehow more moral than the other.
I think that the Republicans myth is unattainable because of the Democrats and what their voters want. I think the Republican myth is unattainable because America has changed a lot over the past 30 years since the Republicans first started selling this myth and it's because of technology, events happening in the world, and a global economy that the Republican myth is unattainable.Gotcha. Always good to know where the other guy is coming from.
Personally I think calling it a myth and a fantasy is a bit presumptious as there are those of us still living that 'myth,' and Sarah Palin has, in fact, gone from small town Mom to Governor of a state to Vice presidential candidate. Its not a made up story. :)
Some times fact is stranger than fiction, or the disney movie of the month.
I just wish the Presidential election was more about the issues and less about the personalities.
But Obama was running on a charismatic platform. He would still be if Palin hadn't pulled the rug out. The whole Europe crown prince tour, the "waters receeding and the Earth beginning to heal" remark, the Democratic acceptance speech in that huge sports arena with the Greek columns and the fake presidential regalia. It's all been sizzle over substance. One of the first political things I posted here said that I thought Obama was very charismatic, that's why I disliked him as a candidate. If he was charismatic with the chops to back it up that would be one thing. But, he is a little light on actual policy change.
Issues should be in the forefront, that much I agreee with you. But we as a nation have gone into the tank for soundbites, attacks and muckraking (and that's BOTH sides). We as a nation and a planet face serious crises, and not just for four years. We need to tighten our belts, invest our tax dollars wisely and try to shrink spending, earmarking, pork barrel, WHATEVER you want to call it. We have become a nation addicted to governmental aid. To quote a certain president from days past:
"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."
It all boils down to personal responsibility. It is not the government's function to care for everyone. It has shown time and time again that it does a LOUSY job of it. Tax money wasted on ridiculous projects, political patronage jobs, bloated bureaucracy, makework positions, perpetual welfare, all these things are draining our country dry. THEY ALL DO IT! Instead of fixing the problems we bleat about "oo Palin said God" or "oo Obama wants our kids to speak Spanish".
How about, "oo let's go through the Congressional Budget with a fine tooth comb. Once we are through with that we can go through the employment rolls of the Federal Government. Then we can put a cap on payraises for congressfolk. Then we can appoint some local comittees to go visit everyone receiving Welfare from the government and check on their status. Then we can change the cockamamie law that cuts Federal departments' budgets because they didn't spend their entire allotment of funds by the beginning of the fiscal year. Let's reward them instead (how many of you fed workers/military folks have been shopping these last few weeks in anticipation of Oct 1st -- shamefull)"
ARGGH! Why do I get sucked into these political threads!
Monkey scurries back to the PbP threads to nurse his headache
It all boils down to personal responsibility. It is not the government's function to care for everyone. It has shown time and time again that it does a LOUSY job of it. Tax money wasted on ridiculous projects, political patronage jobs, bloated bureaucracy, makework positions, perpetual welfare, all these things are draining our country dry. THEY ALL DO IT!
Sorry Patrick, that too is an issue in this campaign.
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"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."
It all boils down to personal responsibility. It is not the government's function to care for everyone. It has shown time and time again that it does a LOUSY job of it.
I agree. There's a place for government oversight. (I sure as heck can't monitor how much lead is in the stuff that gets imported from China!) But there's also a place for people to work for what they want.
At one college speech, a candidate who shall remain nameless told a crowd of late-teens, early-20s that they shouldn't *expect* a hand from the government to pay for their education or to give them student loans, but that they should be expected to work off their education, either through community-service work-programs, charitable work (Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, etc.) or military service. I kind of like that idea, even if it could create an unpleasant flashback to watching Starship Troopers, of a citizen being expected to give to the society if he expects to get something back from it.
He got a standing ovation, from a crowd of young people that any old fogey would swear are self-involved and expecting a handout and good-for-nothing entitled brats (much like their grandparents said about their generation).
Later he got some flak for speaking up on Father's Day saying that parents, particularly men, particuarly men of color, *need* to get more involved in their parental responsibilities and not think that they can just walk away from that situation and expect the kids they've abandoned to be taken care of by someone else.
Meanwhile, this country is loaded up with welfare queens, and the worst of them work on Wall Street and get golden parachuted out of danger to the tune of eight figures after destroying the retirement funds of hundreds of thousands of American citizens.
Meanwhile, this country is loaded up with welfare queens, and the worst of them work on Wall Street and get golden parachuted out of danger to the tune of eight figures after destroying the retirement funds of hundreds of thousands of American citizens.
Obama wants to give tuition breaks to students who spend a specific amount of time (1 year I think but I'm not sure) in community service.
Sounds legit to me, of course, as long as it's legit community service.
Something like this for example...
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At one college speech, a candidate who shall remain nameless told a crowd of late-teens, early-20s that they shouldn't *expect* a hand from the government to pay for their education or to give them student loans, but that they should be expected to work off their education, either through community-service work-programs, charitable work (Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, etc.) or military service.
My main beef with said candidate's position in this regard is that when he talks of community service he makes clear that, to him, community service is ultimately and primarily government service. When he talks of young people being encouraged to give back, he invariably segues into serving in the beuracracy. Other forms of service come across to me as an afterthought on his part. YMMV
EDIT: It was interesting to me watching the 9-11 presidential forum on community service the other night, both McCain and Obama had very similar answers to several of the questions and yet, if one listened closely, it was clear they were coming from two very different philosophies and that ultimately their words, though they sounded alike, meant two very different things. McCain, in talking of community service, seemed to be more often refering to private segment community service whilst Obama, in talking of community service seemed to be more often refering to government sponsored community service and government jobs.
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Sounds legit to me, of course, as long as it's legit community service.
And there's the rub.
Someone who wanted to torpedo the entire thing and keep up the 'Democrats promote a welfare state!' and 'Democrats don't get anything done!' lies would immediately pressure for church missionary work to be included under such an umbrella, which would lead to separation of church and state arguments and scuttle the entire initiative, and end with the prepared arguments that not only do Democrats want to promote a welfare state, but they also are anti-religionists.
It would be shamelessly using and exploiting the religious folk of this country, but it's not like *that* would be anything new.
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TIME - "Sarah Palin's Myth of America"
Joe Klein is also a writer for the New Republic which is an admittedly left-wing liberal publication. This is becoming a trend for Time. However this Time article is pretty good.
TIME - "Sarah Palin's Myth of America"Joe Klein is also a writer for the New Republic which is an admittedly left-wing liberal publication. This is becoming a trend for Time. However this Time article is pretty good.
I wasn't necessarily trying to talk about Sarah Palin. I think this quote from the article I linked to says it best:
"But Americans like stories more than issues. Policy proposals are useful in the theater of presidential politics only inasmuch as they illuminate character"
That is actually something I can agree with Mr. Obama on. I have often said that there should be a manditory 2-year service to country when you turn 18. I think it would benefit folks to have a 2-year experience before college to expand and grow. I always figured it would break down into four categories:
1. Military service
2. A WPA-style infrastructure maintenance corps
3. An international Peace Corps-style institution
4. An independent project for those who couldn't fit their vision into any of the above three.
The thing is, once again, the government should have oversight, but not build another bureaucracy to handle it. They should subcontract it out to private agencies. My problem with government isn't that it does things for people, I know it does, and I have even been the beneficiary of some of the government's programs. The problem I see is when government expands and expands, taking on more facets of society, making it easier for people not to do for themselves. Americans have gotten lazy, and we more often say "Why isn't the government doing something about this?" than "Why aren't I doing something about this?"
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Heh. Good thing Time is a non-biased newsource.
The American Myth is one of those myths that people can still participate in. Us small town types are still here. People can still pull themselves up by their bootstraps from nothing to something. And American Life really is not that dour. Even the poorest among us are pretty well off. :D
The story is just one more piece of meaningless pablum. This guy isn't trying to reflect the spirit of the times at all. He's trying to influence the election. Don't fall for the trap of his framing of the conditions our society, it's oversimplified like most propaganda. Don't let this even frame the conversation, or define the terms of it.
It's a reflection, but a warped one like in a funhouse.|
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I wish the politicians and the media would stop throwing hate at each other and talk more about the issues that are important to people....
Political positions of Barack Obama
Political positions of Joe Biden
Political positions of John McCain
Political positions of Sarah Palin
Comparison of United States presidential candidates, 2008
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TIME - "Sarah Palin's Myth of America"Joe Klein is also a writer for the New Republic which is an admittedly left-wing liberal publication. This is becoming a trend for Time. However this Time article is pretty good.I wasn't necessarily trying to talk about Sarah Palin. I think this quote from the article I linked to says it best:
"But Americans like stories more than issues. Policy proposals are useful in the theater of presidential politics only inasmuch as they illuminate character"
Ah, but the article was about Sarah Palin. And Barack Obama has one of the greatest stories in American politics. He is the American story, the person who rises from nothing to become one of the most successful people in America. The problem is, he cant tell his story, because it is the story that he is trying to convince people is impossible in America unless the government does it for them. It is not as Joe Klein insists that "the Democrats have no myth to counter this powerful Republican fantasy." It is that the Obama myth runs contrary to the other myth the Democrats are trying to seel, which is that no one in America can make it without the government giving them everything.
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which is that no one in America can make it without the government giving them everything.I would have been screwed if the Government did not provide me with an Education... SCREWED!!!!
But if you are like me, then you were expected to either pay the government back or provide service to your country in exchange for that education. I have nothing against the government creating opportunities for people, I don't like when they start giveing handout though. And helping you get an education is not the same as giving you everything.
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But if you are like me, then you were expected to either pay the government back or provide service to your country in exchange for that education. I have nothing against the government creating opportunities for people, I don't like when they start giveing handout though. And helping you get an education is not the same as giving you everything.which is that no one in America can make it without the government giving them everything.I would have been screwed if the Government did not provide me with an Education... SCREWED!!!!
Though I agree with you Education is not EVERYTHING..
Americans do pay for the Public education through Taxes..It is not handed to them for free.. Just like A health system will not be handed to them for free.. It will need to be payed for by taxes..and anyone who wants a Public health Care system and expect it to be free..is Delusional.
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But if you are like me, then you were expected to either pay the government back or provide service to your country in exchange for that education. I have nothing against the government creating opportunities for people, I don't like when they start giveing handout though. And helping you get an education is not the same as giving you everything.which is that no one in America can make it without the government giving them everything.I would have been screwed if the Government did not provide me with an Education... SCREWED!!!!Though I agree with you Education is not EVERYTHING..
Americans do pay for the Public education through Taxes..It is not handed to them for free.. Just like A health system will not be handed to them for free.. It will need to be payed for by taxes..and anyone who wants a Public health Care system and expect it to be free..is Delusional.
Agreed, however the politicians are out there presenting the idea to the American people like it would be free.
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McCain, in talking of community service, seemed to be more often refering to private segment community service whilst Obama, in talking of community service seemed to be more often refering to government sponsored community service and government jobs.
The idea of our tax money going to pay for the educations of people who worked for private entities bugs me. I don't care if that private entity is Enron or Greenpeace. Our government has no business at all paying for people who are working for a third-party.
If someone wants to qualify for some sort of federal benefit to help pay for college or whatever, they should be working for the fed. Military, disaster relief, cleaning beaches, parks and services, building infrastructure (hey, I hear there are some bridges that could use a little somethin' somethin'), etc. This country has NO shortage of things that need to be done, infrastructure that needs to be repaired or replaced or just maintained, garbage that needs to be picked up, etc.
If somebody wants to work for the private sector, then the private sector can pay their way. The last thing big business needs is yet more handouts.
I've got a relative who is retarded, functionally barely more than a four-year old, and they put her to work on an assembly line or dishing out food in a cafeteria for her benefits. If she can work for her benefits, so can anyone who isn't in a damn coma, IMAUO. Someone's got to stuff all those envelopes I get from my congressman that I throw in the trash unread, might as well be someone who's on disability and can use the money and the sense of self-worth that comes from doing work and being regarded as a functional citizen.
I'm not sure that I'd be fond of a two-year mandatory service for *everyone,* but as an option for someone that wants college bennies from the government, it sounds ideal. If some kid on a farm in Oklahoma isn't going to go to college, and is going to run the farm along with his folks, then he's got no reason at all to waste two years of his life doing work for the fed for benefits he's never going to need, and, if he changes his mind later, it's not like he can't sign up then. A forty year old can do public service as easily as a seventeen year old.
Heh. Good thing Time is a non-biased newsource.
The American Myth is one of those myths that people can still participate in. Us small town types are still here. People can still pull themselves up by their bootstraps from nothing to something. And American Life really is not that dour. Even the poorest among us are pretty well off. :D
Hey Wicht,
Out of curiousity, are you or have you ever been among the poorest? Do you know from experience or is that just an extrapolation based on your home town?
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Hey Wicht,
Out of curiousity, are you or have you ever been among the poorest? Do you know from experience or is that just an extrapolation based on your home town?
While not the absolute poorest, I've been legally classified as being in poverty for most of my life (Childhood to Now). Which has always made me think that the government classification is pretty meaningless because I've never gone without and it normally never feels like poverty. Still, when you hear those figures about such and such a number living in poverty, statistically, yeah, I'm probably there.
And as one near the bottom of the income ladder, I have a car, a big screen tv, internet, phone, hot water, sewage, food, a great family, and normally just enough extra money to support my gaming and reading habits. Life's not bad here in America.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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It is true that poverty and other numbers are influenced - kind of a statistical gerrymandering. Especially unemployment. And you can bet if it wasn't done already, that the poverty level will be increased because minimum wage went up, and will go up again.
And what sucks, is that since minimum wage increases help drive inflation, and since cost of goods purchased by low-income types increase, it will make sense that the poverty level goes up.
Instead, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Raise minimum wage, milk and pizza goes up. People still can't afford milk and pizza.
I hate minimum wage.
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I hate minimum wage.
Speaking as a low salaried man - me too. It actually makes people at my income level suffer the worse IMO because the cost of living rises just enough to pinch. The last year has, in honesty, been one of my hardest financially and a bit of that is the raising of the minimum wage IMO.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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As a restaurant manager, it is already so hard to find and keep good people. When you raise minimum wage, your worst workers feel entitled and work no better, and your best people become upset that so-and-so is now making as much as they are. Follow that with the need to raise prices just to keep your margins from dipping too much, and the fact that prices go up right away, but fixed incomes don't. You can actually watch your sales go down while the government is telling you how much they've helped you.
If minimum wage were ever a good idea, why not make it $10? $20? You never hear of a Laugher curve or whatever where minimum wage is a good idea up to a certain GDP. You only hear how much its proponents are helping. And some of them do mean well, but it doesn't help.
And a lot of them know it. They're just cashing donation checks and accusing their opponents of more "tax cuts for the rich."
Meanwhile, someone's factory or restaurant is closing because they can't afford the rising costs of doing business.
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As a restaurant manager, it is already so hard to find and keep good people. When you raise minimum wage, your worst workers feel entitled and work no better, and your best people become upset that so-and-so is now making as much as they are. Follow that with the need to raise prices just to keep your margins from dipping too much, and the fact that prices go up right away, but fixed incomes don't. You can actually watch your sales go down while the government is telling you how much they've helped you.
If minimum wage were ever a good idea, why not make it $10? $20? You never hear of a Laugher curve or whatever where minimum wage is a good idea up to a certain GDP. You only hear how much its proponents are helping. And some of them do mean well, but it doesn't help.
And a lot of them know it. They're just cashing donation checks and accusing their opponents of more "tax cuts for the rich."
Meanwhile, someone's factory or restaurant is closing because they can't afford the rising costs of doing business.
If you look at BLS statistics, there is a direct corrolation between the rise in the current unemployment numbers and congress raising the minimum wage. That is another thing that is never brought up, that raising the minimum wage often results in the loss of jobs for the people that it was intended to help.
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As a restaurant manager, it is already so hard to find and keep good people. When you raise minimum wage, your worst workers feel entitled and work no better, and your best people become upset that so-and-so is now making as much as they are. .
I see the same thing with Affirmative Action.
I have witnessed workers who believe legally their job is save because there needs to be a certain racial ratio in the workforce they feel safe in not working as hard or as well because they do not need to worry about being fired, which reduces the morale of those that are working hard and doing their job well but making the same as those that are not.
Affirmative action has, as witnessed by me, reduced the skill set of workers, people get hired because of their race not because they know the job.
Race should not be a factor, only if you can do the job should be a factor.
Race should not be a factor, only if you can do the job should be a factor.
Personally I disagree. I think race should be a factor just a very low one. If you have two equally qualified individuals for a position, then I see nothing wrong with choosen one because you want more diversity in your work force, I mean you have to decide on some basis at that point. Now that doesn't mean that they should feel safe in that position, if they slack off fire them and see if the other person is still available. Race should not trump ability or effort.
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I just wish the Presidential election was more about the issues and less about the personalities.True that. I've got Republican friends ambushing me at work to repudiate Obama's speeches or whatever with their latest talking points and I'm like, 'I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't listen to his speeches. I compared his voting record to his opponents, and that's all I care about, not how shiny his teeth are. I'm not buying a horse, I'm voting for a President.'
I could care less what was said at the Democractic convention, which my Republican friends *all* seem to have watched, and want to argue with me about, because I didn't watch the darn thing. It's a dog and pony show. Just like the Republican convention. Just like the Oscars or the Emmys. A big masturbatory wankfest that means nothing to me.
I can't wait for December, no matter who wins, just so that it will be *over* and my friends will stop trying to pick fights with me.
True 'nuff
And if the Democrats do lose, IMO, it was because the Democrats were too stupid to come out and say they oppose and would end an unpopular war.
Indeed, I always find it funny when the antiwar people protest Republican events but don't protest at Democrat ones. Obama has made it fairly clear that he is not going to stop the armed conflicts, he just wants to change the theater it takes place in (Iraq -> Afghanistan). When Bush recently sent some more troops to Afghanistan, Obama said that more should have been sent.
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And if the Democrats do lose, IMO, it was because the Democrats were too stupid to come out and say they oppose and would end an unpopular war.Indeed, I always find it funny when the antiwar people protest Republican events but don't protest at Democrat ones. Obama has made it fairly clear that he is not going to stop the armed conflicts, he just wants to change the theater it takes place in (Iraq -> Afghanistan). When Bush recently sent some more troops to Afghanistan, Obama said that more should have been sent.
Not all people against the Iraq war are 'Antiwar'.
many are just against the War in Iraq.|
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Not all people against the Iraq war are 'Antiwar'.
many are just against the War in Iraq.
Yup. It was protectionist Republicans that tried to keep us out of World War 2. Protesting Vietnam, on the other hand, was more of a Democratic thing.
Everybody has their point at which something becomes either acceptable or unacceptable. Hunting down Osama bin Laden in Pakistan or Afghanistan would have been acceptable to me (although I think he's been dead for a couple years), but going to Iraq to punish Saddam because Bush Jr. was upset at Bush Sr. for not 'finishing the job,' doesn't seem like enough of a reason to sacrifice thousands of American lives and trillions of American dollars.
If anyone needed to be 'punished' for 9/11 it should have been A) bin Laden and B) the country who supplied 15 of the 19 hijackers and all of the financial support, a country we should probably stop giving nuclear technology to and buying so much oil from.