Which (to stretch the metaphor a little) seems to be what is happening on the boards these days...
Only a little :/
Hey, may I just point out that here we're discussing the quality (or lack thereof) of totally non-gaming rules-free stuff, as it is the usefulness (or lack thereof) of an AP overview?
What is the point of making it about the edition war rag?
I found SoW 1 pretty weak for an AP start; I found out SoW 2 rather good for atmosphere, encounters and possibilities for NPC interaction. It does actually show promise for the AP.
I recently got the FR1 module and it does give a good vibe too: its design of a large area to explore, with multiple open-ended encounters and factions is a great change (I still get a wee crazy about how monster-overpopulated the actual dungeons are, I could have done with more rooms with just traps, puzzles or natural hazards, but that's a minor quirk). The overall premise is quite original and the connection to FR "texture" is great, though, as they promise, highly adaptable. Wizards staff is starting to produce some adventures which deserve consideration when compared to their previous editions' high quality stuff. Great.
Then, I feel quite OK with saying that the AP overview does not deserve such a name. The materials are useless for a DM who wants to anticipate important NPCs, brew integrated subplots for the characters to go through, or what Paragon paths his party could walk towards. They read like advertising blurbs. We "know" it's gonna be exciting, epic, engaging, etc. People asked for a reference overview, not a vacation brochure. The release feels condescending for people who take campaign running seriously (hell, they even put a spoiler button, what's spoilt?) and more a statement of "we've the whole thing well planned out", than an actual attempt to answer requests.
And that's the way I feel the week I am also thinking that WotC is indeed learning intriguing adventure design for 4e. So, that's not about 4e haters here. Probably a few are in my same position and just getting some misplaced anger.
|
I found SoW 1 pretty weak for an AP start; I found out SoW 2 rather good for atmosphere, encounters and possibilities for NPC interaction. It does actually show promise for the AP.
I recently got the FR1 module and it does give a good vibe too: its design of a large area to explore, with multiple open-ended encounters and factions is a great change (I still get a wee crazy about how monster-overpopulated the actual dungeons are, I could have done with more rooms with just traps, puzzles or natural hazards, but that's a minor quirk). The overall premise is quite original and the connection to FR "texture" is great, though, as they promise, highly adaptable. Wizards staff is starting to produce some adventures which deserve consideration when compared to their previous editions' high quality stuff. Great.Then, I feel quite OK with saying that the AP overview does not deserve such a name. The materials are useless for a DM who wants to anticipate important NPCs, brew integrated subplots for the characters to go through, or what Paragon paths his party could walk towards. They read like advertising blurbs. We "know" it's gonna be exciting, epic, engaging, etc. People asked for a reference overview, not a vacation brochure. The release feels condescending for people who take campaign running seriously (hell, they even put a spoiler button, what's spoilt?) and more a statement of "we've the whole thing well planned out", than an actual attempt to answer requests.
And that's the way I feel the week I am also thinking that WotC is indeed learning intriguing adventure design for 4e. So, that's not about 4e haters here. Probably a few are in my same position and just getting some misplaced anger.
I'm probably harder on SOW(2) than I need to be but with such a weak intro from one and lets be honest a weak, weak overview even as a freebie I'm not inclined to run this AP.
I suppose if the rest manage a U-turn I'll give it a second look and work on the first few.
I think I said earlier but just in case, I find most of the stand alones pretty good but not spectacular for the most part (with one or two possible exceptions).
So I just picked up the Shackled City hardcover (I've been meaning to get it forever but finally got around to it). I'm given to understand that there are some weak points in that AP but in terms of starting stuff to play with its really phenominal.
Lists of the recurring NPCs including their role in the story and even how they will level up over the course of the campaign, a really good overview of the city, great maps, an over view of the region, history of the local, rumours, a great introduction on the main plot line thats running through the adventure and so on.
While I recognize that this is really part of the enhanced package that one gets for buying the AP hardcover it really highlights how one goes about making a great AP and all the material thats missing from SoW that would take it to the next level.
|
I'm torn due to the fact that I personally don't make an AP outline, I just do what people like and/or what behooves me at the time. I'm more into the 1 shot episodes of X-files, rather than the overarching megastory.
That being said, you'd think that people offering an AP would have a set overarching megastory down; it's part of having your crap together.
Enough people seem to rely on that to make it if not a necessity, then at least a very helpful gamemaking resource.
And what's more, I really don't care. I'm not emotionally invested here. I got Pathfinder, so to heck with it. Far from an overreaction; I'm the guy with a great opinion because WOTC is NOT MY GIRL.
Contributor
|
I have been debating running the SoW AP, and in fact did a playtest session with the first few encounters from Rescue at Rivenroar.
So far, I feel it's not great, but it has potential.
Soon, I will be deciding whether or not to subscribe to the DI.
They need to convince me that this AP is worth buying, and what they have given me so far has not done so. They really need to realize that subscription sales (well, at least one) may well hang on the AP outline being effective and useful. Otherwise I'm going to assume that there really is no more story than what they've said so far, and I'll run something else, like Goodman's 4E adventures.
The Rambling Scribe
|
|
I have been debating running the SoW AP, and in fact did a playtest session with the first few encounters from Rescue at Rivenroar.
So far, I feel it's not great, but it has potential.
Soon, I will be deciding whether or not to subscribe to the DI.
They need to convince me that this AP is worth buying, and what they have given me so far has not done so. They really need to realize that subscription sales (well, at least one) may well hang on the AP outline being effective and useful. Otherwise I'm going to assume that there really is no more story than what they've said so far, and I'll run something else, like Goodman's 4E adventures.
The Rambling Scribe
I'm going with a mix of Goodmans DCC's and the stand alones. I can't wait another 15 months to get the full picture of the AP.
Only problem with the DCC is that they need some work to integrate them into a continuous story since none of the NPC's or locales are assumed important outside of the individual adventure.
Dragora's dungeon appears a good compromise but I've yet to see another Master dungeon on the list 8-(
Only problem with the DCC is that they need some work to integrate them into a continuous story since none of the NPC's or locales are assumed important outside of the individual adventure.Dragora's dungeon appears a good compromise but I've yet to see another Master dungeon on the list 8-(
Wow, same feeling here. DCC 53 read like a mini Big Trouble in Little China and it felt kinda "random" and a bit too fast-paced for being a "Dungeon Crawl", plus, as you say, it's funny to have a 'Crawl in the middle of a big campaign city without any consequences (outside of what the DM brews up).
Dragora needs lots of personalizing for your setting, but feels quite better. Still, a bit of a stretch for 1st level characters.My surprise with 4e GMG is that "X edition rules, 1st edition feel" is pretty much gone (if you exclude some of the art, even the layout has gotten revamped). They pulled it for 52-odd modules, but their development of 4e stuff so far (I just saw DCC 53 and Dragora's) feels quite close in texture (continuous series of creature or creature/trap encounters, smaller dungeons with more action and less exploration time) to the WotC products (I am looking at H1-3). I don't know if it is a marketing choice: with some (many? i don't know) "Old timers" expressing some resistance to 4e, perhaps they find safer to go with what everybody's cooking right now adventure-wise. Or perhaps they are fine tuning their proven dungeon design skills to the new power balance of encounters, benchmarks, healing surges and so on.
|
|
Only problem with the DCC is that they need some work to integrate them into a continuous story since none of the NPC's or locales are assumed important outside of the individual adventure.Dragora's dungeon appears a good compromise but I've yet to see another Master dungeon on the list 8-(
Wow, same feeling here. DCC 53 read like a mini Big Trouble in Little China and it felt kinda "random" and a bit too fast-paced for being a "Dungeon Crawl", plus, as you say, it's funny to have a 'Crawl in the middle of a big campaign city without any consequences (outside of what the DM brews up).
Dragora needs lots of personalizing for your setting, but feels quite better. Still, a bit of a stretch for 1st level characters.My surprise with 4e GMG is that "X edition rules, 1st edition feel" is pretty much gone (if you exclude some of the art, even the layout has gotten revamped). They pulled it for 52-odd modules, but their development of 4e stuff so far (I just saw DCC 53 and Dragora's) feels quite close in texture (continuous series of creature or creature/trap encounters, smaller dungeons with more action and less exploration time) to the WotC products (I am looking at H1-3). I don't know if it is a marketing choice: with some (many? i don't know) "Old timers" expressing some resistance to 4e, perhaps they find safer to go with what everybody's cooking right now adventure-wise. Or perhaps they are fine tuning their proven dungeon design skills to the new power balance of encounters, benchmarks, healing surges and so on.
Your right about Dragora but in fairness they do warn you to that effect out of the box. Well worth the time and effort though. I definitely agree with the Robert E Howard Conan comparisons.
Don't get me wrong I REALLY like sellswords of Punjar, it's a great adventure. But if I were to run a series of DCC's in that vein back to back without laying some setting background and integrating the PC's/NPC's my players lose interest.
It's nothing like the wotc modules IMO, they are a little more modern in attitudes and styles 8-(. I definitely feel & think it has a 1st edition feel, and I like to think I have enough 1E adventures to compare 8-) it to.
I think the biggest culture shock is that whilst you can certainly capture 1E in story (and I feel they do), 4E is too dynamic to allow the play to be the same.
Also there is definitely some truth in what you say about them finding their feet with a new system, I did get that feeling a little.
My surprise with 4e GMG is that "X edition rules, 1st edition feel" is pretty much gone (if you exclude some of the art, even the layout has gotten revamped). They pulled it for 52-odd modules, but their development of 4e stuff so far (I just saw DCC 53 and Dragora's) feels quite close in texture (continuous series of creature or creature/trap encounters, smaller dungeons with more action and less exploration time) to the WotC products (I am looking at H1-3). I don't know if it is a marketing choice: with some (many? i don't know) "Old timers" expressing some resistance to 4e, perhaps they find safer to go with what everybody's cooking right now adventure-wise. Or perhaps they are fine tuning their proven dungeon design skills to the new power balance of encounters, benchmarks, healing surges and so on.
I simply think they have recognized the trend in what the customer base is demanding.
When 3rd was first released there was a really strong demand for 'back to the dungeon'. There was also a strange phenomena of people suddenly choosing, after long absences, to pick up the dice again and a lot of them wanted to try and recapture some of that Ghost Tower of Iverness or Lost caverns of Tsojcanth feel that they had back when they first started playing.
However I don't think that this idea of making 1E feeling adventures really had much stamina. Companies that went beyond this formula to release products rich in detail with strong themes (be they horror, swashbuckler, intrigue or what have you) are the companies that get mentioned over and over again and their products are the ones that everyone is holding up as the shining light of the industry.
In the end I think that only a small minority actually wants 1E feel. Most would rather have something feel like its from a great novel or a great movie.
Thus Goodman is pretty much getting with the program and making products that might be able to compete with some of the stuff Paizo or Malhavoc has historically done in terms of feel.
It's me!
Anyway, I guess since everyone else is tossing their two cents in on the new AP, I might as well do so, too.
Well, firstly I'll state that I like Pathfinder. I will also state that I like 4e. Also, I will add that I like 4e enough to write it, and would write for Pathfinder as well, given the opportunity. Both are great games, both have great ideas and interesting stuff going on.
I actually like the SoW adventure path. I loved Red Hand of Doom, and I'm kind of excited to see all the inside references to it in the new AP. I also noticed that message about the lack of a general overview of the Scales of War. Now, there's a part of me that really wants that overview, so I can really cannibalize it for my own campaigns. I want to know what's coming too. However, like I always have to tell myself when I'm staring at that pile of presents under the Christmas tree, sometimes it's better to wait to be surprised. I am looking forward to using the 4e material for all it's worth, but I really want to be able to open up that PDF and say "Woah, that's really cool!" or "The PCs have to fight a WHAT?"
Also, this was on Digital Insider #6. It's kind of what you were asking for. It gives at least a brief look at the next couple of adventures, while not giving away the big reveals.
In addition, there's another installment of our grand Scales of War Adventure Path.
As regards Scales of War, we've been getting a lot of feedback about our decision to hold the key plot elements pretty close to our chest. Some DMs like the suspense of being able to read along and watch as things unfold over time, and we've done our best to make the Path really easy to DM (with us seeding in cool plot hooks and NPCs ourselves), but we also recognize that other DMs prefer to have more context so that they can elaborate and expand things on their own. In order to help out that latter kind of DM, R&D has put together a couple of sentences worth of overview on each episode from the heroic tier along with a paragraph about the paragon tier and another on the epic tier (recall that this path is designed to take PCs all the way from level 1 to level 30). This overview is available to those who want it (and it's surrounded by spoiler tags for those who don't, though there's not a ton of spoiler info in there since we're still not revealing the details of the plot... just its overall trajectory). Meanwhile, episode 3, "The Shadow Rift of Umbraforge" (which includes a significant clue about how things will unfold along with the nature of the conflict in Elsir Vale) should be up within a week.
Scales of War Heroic Tier
Episode #3: The Shadow Rift of Umbraforge
On returning from the Vents, the characters search for clues behind the well-armed orcs that sought passage beneath the mountains around Overlook. Their investigation takes them beneath the city, and then to another plane!Episode #4: The Lost Mines of Karak
A dwarven clan of Overlook - once renowned for their wealthy mines has fallen on hard times. But the rediscovery of one of their mines could spell relief for the city's war efforts, and redemption for a once worthy name.Episode #5
The heroes are summoned back to Brindol by an unexpected source. Their new ally then guides them to a long-lost fortress now inhabited by all manner of foul creatures.Episode #6
The characters return to Overlook to find the city marshalling for war. But something rotten lurks in the city's heart, and further investigation reveals that the city faces a threat as great from within as the army marshalling at the gates of Bordrin's Watch.Scales of War Paragon Tier (Episodes #7-12)
The scope has changed. By the end of the heroic tier, the heroes finally learn that the war in Elsir Vale is on a much larger scale than they imagined. Not only their small slice of the world is in danger, and the forces of good need powerful champions. The characters venture across the planes as a small, elite strike team, pursuing missions few champions of their world would dare to undertake. There, they must make new alliances to further their war effort, while sundering those of their enemies. Finally, they uncover the magnitude of the true threat facing their home.
Scales of War Epic Tier (Episodes #13-18)
The stakes increase. As the heroes cross into the epic tier, they learn that their world is truly under siege from all sides. Pursuing numerous threats only they can deal with, they single-handedly have the potential to turn the tide of war in one direction or the other. As the balance teeters on a razor's edge, disaster strikes the characters allies, and they must act swiftly before their world and possibly more is lost to an age of darkness unlike any other.
I think that'll do it for me for now. More later, I'm sure.
I actually like the SoW adventure path. I loved Red Hand of Doom, and I'm kind of excited to see all the inside references to it in the new AP. I also noticed that message about the lack of a general overview of the Scales of War. Now, there's a part of me that really wants that overview, so I can really cannibalize it for my own campaigns. I want to know what's coming too. However, like I always have to tell myself when I'm staring at that pile of presents under the Christmas tree, sometimes it's better to wait to be surprised. I am looking forward to using the 4e material for all it's worth, but I really want to be able to open up that PDF and say "Woah, that's really cool!" or "The PCs have to fight a WHAT?"
Well for one I should note that you could always skip reading the overview.
However I want to go beyond that and point out that this is absolutely not about cool Christmas presents and wanting to know what you will get. This is not really about the DM at all - its about the players.
In fact I'd go so far as to say that it is flawed DMing. The DMs number one job after 'everyone should have fun' is to provide the players with the best possible game that he can manage. That means the ability to introduce key NPCs early for foreshadowing, it means working characters backgrounds into the plot line it means integrating the characters into the area and entwining their lives with the NPCs. A DM that eschews all of this in order to get more bang out what amounts to the reading portion of game prep is essentially gipping his players. He is running a game that is not as good as it could be if he knew where the plot was really going and the payoff is that its more interesting to read the adventure. That, I feel, amounts to misplaced priorities. The players fun at teh table is simply more important.
So I was reading through The Shadow Rift of Umbraforge and came across one of the sidebars entitled "Key to the Shadowfell Gate".
a dark one emissary in the boiler room in the
Vents. This emissary’s name was Iranda, and
he reported directly to Modra, the dark creeper
villain of this adventure, something the characters
will learn over the course of this adventure.
Iranda kept a key to the Shadowfell gate below
Overlook. If you’ve already run “Siege of Bordrin’s
Watch,” feel free to give the PCs the key
before this adventure begins. Alternatively, it’s
possible Iranda stashed it somewhere in Overlook,
and the PCs need to track it down at some
point during “The Shadow Rift of Umbraforge.”
This latter tactic is especially handy if the characters
are not quite halfway to 5th level when
this adventure begins. Finally, consider including
the key among the possessions of the shadar-kai
witch at the transfer portal (see page 19).
So, what really caught my eye was the idea that, if you've already ran Siege of Bordrin's Watch", there was apparently an important item that the DM would need to retcon into the game somehow. While I appreciate the suggestions of how to work it into the game (ok...most of the suggestions...'Just give it to them' was a bit lame), it seems to me that this ommission brings into question the idea that they have this AP pretty much mapped out. It jsut seems like this is kind of a big slip up...
|
While I appreciate the suggestions of how to work it into the game (ok...most of the suggestions...'Just give it to them' was a bit lame), it seems to me that this ommission brings into question the idea that they have this AP pretty much mapped out. It jsut seems like this is kind of a big slip up...
A slip up like this is not a big deal and can happen in your homebrew AP.
But this is something that should not happen to the "Leaders" in the RPG industry!If I would be editor for an AP I would create a flowchart with Items/Informations/NPCs that appear in or link more than one adventure.
Then I would know that Item A carried by NPC B from adventure 2 will come handy in 6. Easy, yes?
|
|
While I appreciate the suggestions of how to work it into the game (ok...most of the suggestions...'Just give it to them' was a bit lame), it seems to me that this ommission brings into question the idea that they have this AP pretty much mapped out. It jsut seems like this is kind of a big slip up...A slip up like this is not a big deal and can happen in your homebrew AP.
But this is something that should not happen to the "Leaders" in the RPG industry!
If I would be editor for an AP I would create a flowchart with Items/Informations/NPCs that appear in or link more than one adventure.
Then I would know that Item A carried by NPC B from adventure 2 will come handy in 6. Easy, yes?
And you would still make mistakes.
Unless your not human. **Nervously eyes avatar**
to err human, to forgive divine. Or something like that.
Whilst I'd like to see Wotc's editing team kicked in the jacksie lets not put the targets at a ludicrously celestial height.
|
|
And you would still make mistakes.
Unless your not human. **Nervously eyes avatar**
to err human, to forgive divine. Or something like that.
Nah, the avatar is a statue of my Lord Orcus. I am simply a humble priest of his dark Majesty*.
Whilst I'd like to see Wotc's editing team kicked in the jacksie lets not put the targets at a ludicrously celestial height.
IMO WoC could do and should better.
Errors happen, but WoC has a very bad track record when it comes to editing.I am far more willing to accept errors in 3PP products than in WoC products.
And even most errors do not matter much if the adventure is really cool.
But my overall impression is that this is not a carefully crafted AP but some mediocre adventures that are connected by a thin thread.
Though I am still willing to admit that I was wrong if the next adventures blow me away.
We will see.
* I know that the Priest of a Demonlord does not have a place in Cheliax. So in my other life I am a simple Priest of Asmodeus**
**Yes, pretty chizophrenic, why do you think I call myself "Damned"?
|
Whilst I'd like to see Wotc's editing team kicked in the jacksie lets not put the targets at a ludicrously celestial height.
Except for the fact that a selling point of the online magazines was supposed to be their dynamic nature. Why does the sidebar not read:
"This important key was intended to be included among soandso's inventory, and that error has been corrected. For groups who have already completed the previous adventure, here are a couple suggestions for putting this item into your player's hands."
Something that has started to annoy me as a player in the first adventure of this AP is that it feels to static.
I've not actually read it - as I'm a player, but I'm getting the impression that the adventure just sits there and waits for us to 'trigger' encounters.
Now as a long time DM I understand that 'triggered' events are one of the most powerful tools in a DMs arsenal for telling a great story. Many events should be essentially triggered so that the cool stuff is happening when the players enter the scene.
The problem however is that the very first adventure of the AP essentially puts the players on a time limit (save the hostages before Hobgoblins use them as the main course for a feast or some other bad thing) without putting these events on some kind of a time line. I get the impression we could take a long rest in nearly every room and nothing bad would actually happen - the hostages would all still be there waiting for us whenever we finally got around to rescuing them.
This is basically bad campaign design. In order for the the DM to be able to use the powerful 'triggered' encounter design technique its important that the DM first establish in the players minds that the world is dynamic and that events continue to move forward even if they choose to stop.
Hence there should be a strong theme that we are on a time limit - maybe hostages die at a certain rate and we get less of a reward. Do this early in the campaign and we'll be conditioned to behave as if this was a living breathing world. At this point its OK for the DM to use more 'triggered' encounters as we won't have as easy a time recognizing that the plot is simply waiting for us.
I think this is a particularly important point in 4E were the players often have a lot of leeway in terms of how often they rest and how they play in each encounter. I'm finding this point is made very salient in our game by the fact that we have a sword mage thats constantly running out of healing surges long before the rest of the players need to rest. Of course once he's out of healing surges we need to rest and, since their appears to be no draw backs to resting, there is no real reason to get the sword mage player to play a little more cautiously and have the rest of the party take some of damage.
We could easily rework our tactics to allow us to press on a little more before taking long rests and I don't think it would take that much in terms of adventure design to make that type of tactic something we'd actually do but the adventure seems so static that we just don't bother.
I think it would improve the players experience at the table if the adventure gave the DM more of a stick to beat us with if we meta-gamed to much and became slow pokes.
|
|
Bah. Using the word "impactful" makes you a moron. The fact that a mass of morons are incorrect in sufficient numbers to get Webster to conform does not somehow transform the word from empty corporate speak into a valid method of human communication.
Maybe its just the pretty, pretty pony, or perhaps its the concentrated bile in so few words, but this post has made me reconsider my long held desire to burn the lawyers.
FOLLOW THE LAWYER! BURN the PR PEOPLE INSTEAD!*
*runs off to get torch and pitchfork
|
|
Maybe its just the pretty, pretty pony, or perhaps its the concentrated bile in so few words, but this post has made me reconsider my long held desire to burn the lawyers.
FOLLOW THE LAWYER! BURN the PR PEOPLE INSTEAD!*
*runs off to get torch and pitchfork
Poor underling!
Another lost soul fallen under the spell of the Devil-Pony!Somebody do something!