So I'm going to need some guns for my home brew campaign and I thought that might be an interesting topic to consider.
So anyone have any interesting suggestions on how to incorporate gunpowder weaponry in 4E?
Also I have an interest in ideas on how I might make the specific guns in use in my homebrew might mechanically work. I recognize that my long winded post on the topic certianly won't be of interest for everyone and is probably not as interesting as the general topic of guns in 4E so I've spoilered it, but, if you do have specific suggestions for me in this regard I'm definitly interested.
Guns in the Haddath Empire Campaign Setting.
I have five guns in my campaign world that are divided into 3 distinct categories.
General Gun Design Goals: Guns are not Crossbows; Since guns, in my home brew, are pretty uncommon they can be a little more complex then a crossbow. That said, since at least one player is likely to be using them, they can't be so unwieldy that its a major slow down on the game.
Guns of the Chin-Tuo:
Arquebuses - Used by the Warlords of the Chin-Tuo en masse to arm peasant levies. These simple weapons are little more then a metal tube attached to some kind of a stock. In recent times there have been some improvements. They now usually come with a trigger that lowers a slow burning wick into a touch hole to fire the weapon.
Arquebus Design Goals: This weapon is unusual among my fire arms in that it needs to be balanced as a simple weapon. The rest of the guns are either limited by class or at least require an exotic weapon feat. This gun is used by masses of peasants so its got to be a simple weapon. I'd like to see it be a slow reloading weapon. Something thats worth it for a single use in combat but then is not worth continuing with. I'd also like to have two modes of fire. Some kind of purpose built bullet and a less effective alternative that involves jamming it full of stones and nails and such as an ad-hoc weapon.
Guns of the Matriarchy of Zenitia:
This conservative, reactionary, society just barely manages to eke out a living as subsistence agriculturalists in the harsh northern jungle. The use of extreme regimentation of the populace including gender segregation allows them to extract just enough food from their surroundings to survive from one year to the next. Males practise a brutally labour intensive form of nomadic agriculture involving clearing new swaths of jungle every few years in an environment that is not conductive to beasts of burden while females are trained from birth to patrol the areas around these hold fasts fending off the endless incursions by goblinoids and other threats with the use of stealth, camouflage and ambush as well as a series of superb gunpowder weapons.
Zenitian Gun Design Goals: The following weapons don't need to be as well play balanced. Players choosing to be Zenitian Jungle Warriors would be playing a specific class whose powers focused on the traits associated with their style of fighting and their guns and even, at paragon levels, an art that involved applying spells to the bullets and firing these spells at their opponents along with the bullets. So some of the play balance can be handled in the power section of the class. That said its conceivable that players could get access to these weapons and then use exotic weapon feats master them. Guns should be problematic to load. The mechanics should encourage a Zenitian Jungle Warrior to cycle through her guns. After all she is a walking arsenal so its most interesting if she actually uses all her guns. There is also an interesting tension in the game when she begins to run out of of guns to fire and things start to go downhill.
Hold Out - This small one handed pistol is used as fall back weapon when her other guns have run out of ammunition or have otherwise been rendered unusable. A Zenitian Jungle Warrior often carries two to four of these and its popular to conceal them.
Hold Out Design Goals: This weapon should be small and concealable. This gun needs to be slow enough to use that its still worth it to keep cycling through them but fast enough to load and fire that the gun can be loaded and fired in a round, though its OK if thats all that can be done in that round.
Pistolle - The standard backup weapon of a Zenitian Jungle Warrior. Usually two are carried and this is the go too weapon of a Zenitian Jungle Warrior that finds herself unexpectedly in combat.
Pistolle Design Goals: This should be a fairly good weapon but too slow to reload to make that an effective option in combat.
Culivar - This awesome weapon has two barrels one stacked atop the other. It can be fired twice before it needs to be reloaded and comes with a complex mechanisms to allow it to be fired twice. This is a long barrelled gun and is somewhat cumbersome.
Culivar Design Goals - While it can be fired twice it should not be possible to do fire it more then once per combat round without using some kind of encounter power of some such. This thing is large calibre and should really pack some kind of a punch. Its cumbersome so if its not already in hand it should not be the go to weapon. Possibly it comes with some kind of penalty to drawing it that makes it a longer action to get this out compared to a hold out or pistolle.
The Gun Priests of Grumash:
Starwheels - The final guns in my campaign world are the Starwheels of the Gun Priests of Grumash. These weapons are enigma. There is no evidence of any evolution of these weapons. They appear on the historical record in their present state with no sign that they were built up from simpler mechanisms. Among the membership of The Tribes, who are as numberless as the stars themselves, Gun Priests of Grumash often serve as powerful lackys of those who gather and lead a Horde against one of the other societies of Haddath Isle. Though Gun Priests of Grumash tend to be lackeys they always have some other agenda in the service of their divine patron. Where the Gun Priests come from and how they get their hands on Starwheels is unknown. A Starwheel has a cylinder with five chambers, while it takes an excruciating time to load because it has to be cycled back through the whole process in reverse loading each chamber in turn its still a phenominal weapon that can be fired five times before reloading.
Starwheel Design Goals: This weapon actually exists as cool treasure. No player that has ever sat at my table has ever acquired one of these before 8th level at the earliest. This is a high level weapon. You just don't encounter low level Gun Priests of Grumash and you can't buy one of these. So this weapon does not have to be thought of as having to be balanced against other mundane weapons. Its essentially a magic item, even if its not actually magic. Something that I'll give to higher level players, probably by arranging an encounter with a Gun Priest of Grumash. Especially if one of my players is a Zenetian Jungle Warrior as her guns will begin to get boring and some what out of date as she gets into the later stages of the Heroic Path. That said my fluff tells me that this thing can't be loaded quickly.
That wraps up the gunpowder weapons I use in my homebrew. Long winded I know but if you can snag a good idea thats great and I'm certianly interested in any suggestions on how I might mechanically incorporate guns into 4E.
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You got some nice gun ideas there...I created steam weapons for my 'Druid Revolutionary War campaign.
ARTILLERY PIECES Cannons and Mortars were created to be used by driuds in Sieges of Castles when it came time to 'put down' the human populations who had become a destroyer of forests. They were upward of thirty Tons with a one ton shot and a mile range.
STEAMKOLBEN Hand weapons that simply require the Druid to fill with water, Load shot (Lead, Silver, or Demon dung) and cast a heat metal.
KOLBENMENThis is simply a group of rifle infantrymen each with a heavy Kolben all linked by a Metal chain so the Druid Field officer can cast heat metal and they all fire as one.
Send me an email requesting steamkolben and i'll send you a picture of a steamkolben:) : yellowdingo@hotmail.com
Jeremy, did you see this excerpt from Adventurer's Vault? It seems to be you could treat guns as alchemical items, and possibly give them levels (or maybe just set them at a certain level) in terms of determining appropriate damage/other qualities.
Cheers! :)
PS: Some pretty interesting ideas though. :)
I'm my 3.5 campaign, I have alchemical guns. They have 50 charges and fire eldritch blasts (1 charge), lines of eldritch energy (2 charges), or cones of eldritch energy (3 charges).
So I'm going to need some guns for my home brew campaign and I thought that might be an interesting topic to consider.
So anyone have any interesting suggestions on how to incorporate gunpowder weaponry in 4E?
...
General Gun Design Goals: Guns are not Crossbows; Since guns, in my home brew, are pretty uncommon they can be a little more complex then a crossbow. That said, since at least one player is likely to be using them, they can't be so unwieldy that its a major slow down on the game.
In the original Forgotten Realms campaign setting, it was specifically noted that the physics of gunpowder did not work on Toril and that the closest approximation was an alchemical compound that was notoriously unstable. While effective, the instability prohibited widespread use.
Be careful when incorporating such weapons, as they can seriously goof the balance of the setting if they are too reliable.
This plot-device style modification of physics was (and is) useful for preventing all manner of mayhem that could basically undo the fantasy setting. Once you have reliable guns that don't need magic, magic users become either targets or useless and will be relegated to legend in a few short years.
Regarding crossbows: Hand crossbows are a relatively new invention, though I would guess there were a very few rare ones in the way-back. Most crossbows were of the heavy and light varieties and were of no use after the first shot in close combat due to their reload times. Repeating crossbows are pure fantasy. What was far more common was the use of short bows (composite or otherwise) and long bows, with the short bow being the only bow generally useful in short-range combat.
Basically, guns are too inaccurate and dangerous to the shooter in the long run and are generally only useful for one shot in an encounter where combat closes to melee in short order. Crossbows are too heavy and impractical if played accurately and are also limited to one effective shot. Long-bows are awkward (6 or 7 feet long) and need too much distance, being most effective for ranges over 100 yards. Repeating crossbows are complicated and heavy (if even possible without magic). Short-bows and hand crossbows (given a swift reload method) are most useful and effective.
Of all of these - the best all-around adventurer's ranged weapon is a laminated composite short bow. Such is good for hunting rabbits, nailing goblins and slaying dragons (given the right arrows). A short bow is easy to carry, easy to maintain, easy to use, can be used while mounted and ammo is as close as the nearest sapling.
For historical reference to the effectiveness of the short bow, check out the Mongols.
Be careful when incorporating such weapons, as they can seriously goof the balance of the setting if they are too reliable.
This plot-device style modification of physics was (and is) useful for preventing all manner of mayhem that could basically undo the fantasy setting. Once you have reliable guns that don't need magic, magic users become either targets or useless and will be relegated to legend in a few short years.
Well, as you note, once we get really realistic about things a great many of the weapons in the game become unrealistic. Its perfectly possible to treat gunpowder weapons the same way and we don't really loose anything by it.
Also a mage is capable of doing a lot more then a gun. The existence of reliable magic stunts gun development much more then gun development stunts the existance of wizards and magic in general.
Finally I strongly question the idea that there would be wide spread adaption and advancement of the technology. The historical record does not really support this contention. Gunpowder probably travelled to Europe from China via the Arabs sometime in and around the 13th century. However there is little evidence that the Chinese made significant advancements in gunpowder weaponry until the 19th century. The Ottoman Turks made a bunch of impressive advances for a hundred years or so and then simply stopped significantly advancing the weaponry. The Europeans introduced gunpowder weaponry to pretty much every part of the world during their long colonial period. Little evidence that the natives of North or South America advanced the weaponry same deal with the varous societies of Africa, India, The Spice Islands, Japan, etc. etc. In fact gunpowder weaponry advanced in Europe and Europe alone. So one or more things unique to Europe drove weapon development.
Without the Europe of the Renaissance one rarely sees significant weapon advancement at least not of any speed. For example you note that the Mongol Composite Bow was a phenominal piece of technology. Heck they used it to kick the behinds of half the varous peoples of the Old World over a short period of time. Seems clear that everyone would adopt this phenominal weapon right? Well actually no - despite how impressed modern archery enthusiasts are with the Mongol Composite Bow the weapon was not adopted by societies outside of the Mongols.
Weapon technology usually spreads slowly and fitfully. Societies don't normally adapt new weapon technology particularly quickly - the exception seems to be Europe after the Dark Ages. In fact many other technologies seem to be much more likely as candidates for adoption compared to weapon technology. The Iron Age likely spread rapidly less because of iron wielding invaders (though there are a few spectacular examples of such invaders) but because iron is a phenominal tool for agriculture. Societies with iron plows grow a lot more food much more easily then societies without iron plows.
So why Europe? Well Europe provided the perfect melting pot for the expansion of military technology. The French kicked off the show when they rolled down the Italian Peninsula using cannons to knock down the walls of one city after another in rapid succession. This put the rest of Europe on notice that they needed to start developing new methods for waging war.
- Small Size: The small size of the continent makes the transfer of ideas fairly easy.
- Constant War: War was a constant in Europe. Every State was always either at war or preparing for the next war. Unlike the rest of the planet there was a clear arms race and everyone new they were engaged in it.
- Many States: A large number of different states helps push technology forward by providing a large number of venues any one of which might make a breakthrough. We see this dramatically in Europe were the leader in a weapon system was in constant flux. It might be the Spanish who were on top only to have their lead taken over by the Swedes after which it could pass to the French, then English before Prussia becomes top dog. The constant shifting of who was the leader of the pack spurred those states that were falling behind to renewed vigour in order to catch up.
- Reasons for War are Trivial: War needs to be constant but the reasons for war should not actually be important. The rulers of Europe were, with the exception of the wars of religion, engaged in what amounted to a game until the advent of nationalism. This allows all the participants to stay abreast of each other since your subjects are more then willing to sell any advancements to rival kingdoms for personal rewards - they have little real loyalty to their leaders. Thus any advancement by one state is soon copied by the other states, one of whom will probably shortly over take the original state and that of course will spur the original state to keep striving - now to catch up. This essentially greases the wheels of the arms race.
- Culturally Similar: Like the above its far easier for technology to pass between states that share a similar culture. This also helps with the constant war aspect. Its easy to dream and scheme constantly in order to acquire every one else's provinces if they are full of people much like your own.
- Victory is Impossible: While there needs to be constant war to spur the arms race no one can ever actually win - or the technological advances will stop. Europe historically proved to be impossible to actually conquer. A few rulers got kind of close for a short while but in general all the peninsula's blocked off by mountain ranges meant that any victory was only of a temporary nature. Even if you acquired a state by marriage there was always a fairly good chance that your subjects in the newly acquired state would decide that they did not like you - or one of your descendants, after all. If they revolted you'd not likely be able to reacquire the way ward province unless it was close to your centre of power.
Hence its actually unlikely that gunpowder weaponry would have advanced at anything except a slow incremental crawl. There is no evidence that, in a world without Europe, we'd have made the rapid advance in technology that we have experienced in the last thousand years. Outside of Europe advances in technology between the 11th century and the 19th were very small and very incremental just as advances in technology had been prior to the Europeans engaging in a race to carve up the whole planet.
Beyond all of this my campaign world is similar to the Romans of the 4th century in terms of technology in the sense that there is essentially a main Empire in decline and the Empires Scholars, Like the late era Roman ones, take note of and write about the fact that their ancestors had mastery over technology that they now use without knowing how or why it works and in fact have lost the ability to utilize many technologies. Its a world descending, slowly but inexorably into a dark age.
Also a mage is capable of doing a lot more then a gun. The existence of reliable magic stunts gun development much more then gun development stunts the existance of wizards and magic in general.
Depends upon the number of people with guns vs. the number of mages.
Finally I strongly question the idea that there would be wide spread adaption and advancement of the technology. The historical record does not really support this contention. Gunpowder probably traveled to Europe from China via the Arabs sometime in and around the 13th century....
Actually, it was not until the invention of smokeless powder cartridges with percussion caps in the 19th century that proliferation became both (ahem) explosive and truly effective. Even so, the gun had already started making significant civilization-altering changes and is to be given much credit for allowing the European expansion into the Americas. The development of weapons and defenses in general has always (since the dawn of time) been the primary (but not singular) motivator for technological advancement. Only recently has that begun to change.
In fact gunpowder weaponry advanced in Europe and Europe alone. So one or more things unique to Europe drove weapon development.Without the Europe of the Renaissance one rarely sees significant weapon advancement at least not of any speed. For example you note that the Mongol Composite Bow was...
Given that most FRPG settings are modeled mainly after European themes, governments and motivations and that the game is largely written and played by folk of European descent, it follows that the same base motivations that drive the Europeans to make such advances would also occur in the typical fantasy setting. Namely: greed. Both in economic and territorial terms, whether blatant or cloaked in nationalism and/or religious zeal. In Europe basic territorial motivations were primarily economic in nature, but were made popular by professed divine providence.
The care must be taken in setting weapon limitations, either in performance or availability of the weapon and any derivation thereof.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, just raising a caution flag. In fact, it might be an interesting experiment...
Mechanically, you might be able to make them work by allowing gunpowder attacks to target the Reflex defense (instead of AC), and giving them a proficiency bonus of +0 (reflecting their inaccuracy and balancing them for the Reflex defense). Use that as your baseline and work from there.
Mechanically, you might be able to make them work by allowing gunpowder attacks to target the Reflex defense (instead of AC), and giving them a proficiency bonus of +0 (reflecting their inaccuracy and balancing them for the Reflex defense). Use that as your baseline and work from there.
Hmmm... something that travels over a thousand feet per second pretty much negates reflex... unless the target is actively dodging and/or running (normal rate movement should not count as defense against a bullet), in which case a simple -2 modifier to the to-hit may apply. Armor helps somewhat(not a lot, unless it's kevlar or some composite material). Chain over padding is good, Plate over chain over padding is better, but makes for a nice slow target.
It might be best to use an average of AC and Reflex, with armor check penalties applied. The armor check penalty could also reduce damage on a hit, since the heavier armor that makes a better target may also reduce damage a little.
Jeremy, did you see this excerpt from Adventurer's Vault? It seems to be you could treat guns as alchemical items, and possibly give them levels (or maybe just set them at a certain level) in terms of determining appropriate damage/other qualities.
Cheers! :)
PS: Some pretty interesting ideas though. :)
Adventurers Vault looks like it will be chalk full of good stuff. I like the idea of using alchemy and levelling the weapons to get better versions at higher level. That might reduce the problem of the guns simply going out of date as better magic makes an appearance in the campaign.
I'm my 3.5 campaign, I have alchemical guns. They have 50 charges and fire eldritch blasts (1 charge), lines of eldritch energy (2 charges), or cones of eldritch energy (3 charges).
You don't find it a pain to track the charges? That'd be my main concern wit ha weapon like this.
Mechanically, you might be able to make them work by allowing gunpowder attacks to target the Reflex defense (instead of AC), and giving them a proficiency bonus of +0 (reflecting their inaccuracy and balancing them for the Reflex defense). Use that as your baseline and work from there.
I certianly like this as a starting place. Its difficult to hit fast moving targets after all and guns were quite good a punching through most of the armours we'd find in the game.
I'm my 3.5 campaign, I have alchemical guns. They have 50 charges and fire eldritch blasts (1 charge), lines of eldritch energy (2 charges), or cones of eldritch energy (3 charges).You don't find it a pain to track the charges? That'd be my main concern wit ha weapon like this.
Not really. I DM, so I don't have to worry about charges. And the PCs have raided a factory that made them, so they have a whole bunch. They're actually on a quest to retrieve the last of them, since they killed the only alchemist/artificer (that they know of) who knows how to make them.
The crystal-pistols ("crystols") have 2 trigger/hammer mechanisms; pull back the left one for 1 charge, the right one for 2 charges, and both for 3 charges. 1 charge does 3d6 points of alchemical eldritch energy damage as a ranged touch attack with a range of 120 feet; 2 charges is a 60' line for 6d6 points of damage with a Reflex save of 13 + the wielder's Dex modifier; 3 charges makes a 30' cone for 9d6 points of damage with a Reflex save of 16 + the wielder's Dex modifier.
They are based on the kraftpistoles from J. Gregory Keyes's "Age of Unreason" tetrology.
Mechanically, you might be able to make them work by allowing gunpowder attacks to target the Reflex defense (instead of AC), and giving them a proficiency bonus of +0 (reflecting their inaccuracy and balancing them for the Reflex defense). Use that as your baseline and work from there.Hmmm... something that travels over a thousand feet per second pretty much negates reflex... unless the target is actively dodging and/or running (normal rate movement should not count as defense against a bullet), in which case a simple -2 modifier to the to-hit may apply.
In D&D combat you are always assumed to be actively dodging, ducking, weaving, juking, diving and sliding out of the way of attacks. It's less that the target is avoiding the bullet (or arrow, or eldritch blast, or magic missile) and more that the target is making it difficult for the attacker to fire a well-placed shot in the first place.
All of your other suggestions, I think, turn gunpowder weapons into much more of a separate subsystem than they need to be.
It might be best to use an average of AC and Reflex, with armor check penalties applied. The armor check penalty could also reduce damage on a hit, since the heavier armor that makes a better target may also reduce damage a little.
This is to probably to complicated. Having a whole AC that exists just for the extremely uncommon event that some one shoots you with a gun is not worth the trouble. Having to look up armour check penalties is not entertaining. I'd stay far away from any mechanic that failed to be entertaining.
It might be best to use an average of AC and Reflex, with armor check penalties applied. The armor check penalty could also reduce damage on a hit, since the heavier armor that makes a better target may also reduce damage a little.
This is to probably to complicated. Having a whole AC that exists just for the extremely uncommon event that some one shoots you with a gun is not worth the trouble. Having to look up armour check penalties is not entertaining. I'd stay far away from any mechanic that failed to be entertaining.
Agreed. Simple AC should suffice for 4e, perhaps with appropriate bonuses applied to the gun itself, depending on construction and magical enhancement. Something more complicated might be warranted if guns were common and the system was OGL.
I have made homebrew rules for guns for my Ptolus campaign (which I am converting to 4E).
My biggest concern has been how guns interacted with Powers, because aside from that, they work just like other missile weapons. In other words, they shoot at AC, they have a proficiency rating a reload of minor and so on.
The thing is, I need to able to visualize it... If a player is using a power to move and fire twice - my mind drift to various gun-fu movies. And it looks cool as he throws himself sideways while firing at the ogre. Buuuut....
If the gun is a frontloaded contraption - the illusion falls apart. How could he possibly fire twice (or even 3 times on later levels) and still have time to pour gunpowder and bullets down the barrel. No way.
So my approach has been one of fanstical technology. Something stated already in the Ptolus book (to the effect that technology in Ptolus were not meant to be realistic - it was fantasy-technology after all).
So the end is that the so called dragon-pistols of Ptolus can fire several shots at a time before reload is needed.
In D&D combat you are always assumed to be actively dodging, ducking, weaving, juking, diving and sliding out of the way of attacks.
Don't you mean Dodge, Dip, Dive, Duck, and Dodge? ;-)
I have made homebrew rules for guns for my Ptolus campaign (which I am converting to 4E).
My biggest concern has been how guns interacted with Powers, because aside from that, they work just like other missile weapons. In other words, they shoot at AC, they have a proficiency rating a reload of minor and so on.
The thing is, I need to able to visualize it... If a player is using a power to move and fire twice - my mind drift to various gun-fu movies. And it looks cool as he throws himself sideways while firing at the ogre. Buuuut....
Don't you find this basically true with all the powers? I'd think that Gun-Fu would fit right in and it'll certainly be part and parcel of of how I do the powers. To each their own of course.
Let me just say that all guns, cannons included, are -8 to hit.
The only ways to negate this is special training in the form of a class, profession, martial power, or high level feat.
If not chosen at the start, the character must find a master and train for 2D6 weeks.
Hitting against reflex is good.
If it misses the main target, check another thing in front of the gunner. Not an issue in ship to ship combat.
Cannon balls do structural damage or 3D20.
Firearms do 1D20.
I tried to use a gun once, with my mother supervising, and I found out it was not easy. Also I have heard of a case where a crook and a shopkeeper emptied their pistols at each other well within point blank range and did not hit each other at all. If you are going to use Criticle Hit cards, use them for guns.
Let me just say that all guns, cannons included, are -8 to hit.
The only ways to negate this is special training in the form of a class, profession, martial power, or high level feat.
If not chosen at the start, the character must find a master and train for 2D6 weeks.
Hitting against reflex is good.
If it misses the main target, check another thing in front of the gunner. Not an issue in ship to ship combat.
Cannon balls do structural damage or 3D20.
Firearms do 1D20.I tried to use a gun once, with my mother supervising, and I found out it was not easy. Also I have heard of a case where a crook and a shopkeeper emptied their pistols at each other well within point blank range and did not hit each other at all. If you are going to use Criticle Hit cards, use them for guns.
Again, this all is way more complicated than it needs to be. Train for 2d6 weeks? Why not simply make them all superior weapons, requiring a feat to be used properly?
1d20 damage? No one is going to use anything else, regardless of how long it takes to train.
You're making up hodgepodge rules for things that are already handled well by the game. Totally unnecessary.
I have made homebrew rules for guns for my Ptolus campaign (which I am converting to 4E).
My biggest concern has been how guns interacted with Powers, because aside from that, they work just like other missile weapons. In other words, they shoot at AC, they have a proficiency rating a reload of minor and so on.
The thing is, I need to able to visualize it... If a player is using a power to move and fire twice - my mind drift to various gun-fu movies. And it looks cool as he throws himself sideways while firing at the ogre. Buuuut....
Don't you find this basically true with all the powers? I'd think that Gun-Fu would fit right in and it'll certainly be part and parcel of of how I do the powers. To each their own of course.
Yeah, maybe I wasn't clear on my thoughts :-)
The thing is I was tempted, as a GM, to impose all sorts of complicated restrictions on guns... but then I thought, what about Crossbows? Do they work with powers?The answer to that is yes! It clearly states so in the reload time description - that reload is considered part of the power.
So I did not want the dragonpistols in my campaign to be worse off than other weapons. So it all boiled down to visualizing it. Maybe the crossbow guy loads two bolts to his crossbow. Maybe dragonpistols could fire more than once (multiple barrels).
Here are my dragonpistol rules for those who are interrested.
Dragon Pistol:
Prof. +2, Range 10/20, Damage 1d12, Reload Minor
In addition I gave the pistol an item power! As if it was magical, which it is not. But it functions the same way. Doing it this way, made it clear that your could use that power in conjuction with other powers.
Scattershot (standard, at will)
Area burst 1 within 10
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Target: Each creature in burst.
Damage: 1d6 + dexterity bonus
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Here are my dragonpistol rules for those who are interrested.
Dragon Pistol:
Prof. +2, Range 10/20, Damage 1d12, Reload MinorIn addition I gave the pistol an item power! As if it was magical, which it is not. But it functions the same way. Doing it this way, made it clear that your could use that power in conjuction with other powers.
Scattershot (standard, at will)
Area burst 1 within 10
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Target: Each creature in burst.
Damage: 1d6 + dexterity bonus
So if you roll a natural one on your to hit roll, does the dragon come alive and bite the user?
I am allowing a ranger to use a Rifle in my current campaign
Rifle - 1d12 dmg 40/80 range, Improved Critical.
Drawbacks are cost (75gp), rarity (he is almost out of ammo and the only dwarven merchant in Rock's End who has access is charging him a lot!), on a Roll of a 1 the gun jams (std action to fix), and of course a feat is necessary.
So far it seems balanced. Yes it does a lot of damage, especially coupled with the Ranger's ranged abilities. But the 1 comes up a lot more than you'd think, and he is seriously down to about 10 bullets which has/will lead to no end of RP hilarity.
But the 1 comes up a lot more than you'd think,
I bet it comes up 5% of the time if you use it long enough.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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WOuld it be useful to make a sort of hand cannon: a weapon that is used as an encounter power?
Attack Vs Reflex, blast 3. 3d8 damage. Can't be effectively reloaded in combat.
Or even have variants that entangle or do fire damage or that create difficult terrain in the areas affected?
But the 1 comes up a lot more than you'd think,I bet it comes up 5% of the time if you use it long enough.
ZIiiing
Here are my dragonpistol rules for those who are interrested. -SNIP-So if you roll a natural one on your to hit roll, does the dragon come alive and bite the user?
He he, very funny!
I did not name the dragon-pistol, it comes with the Ptolus setting, along with a lot of other steam-tech stuff, courtesy of one Monte Cook!
Let me just say that all guns, cannons included, are -8 to hit.
The only ways to negate this is special training in the form of a class, profession, martial power, or high level feat.
If not chosen at the start, the character must find a master and train for 2D6 weeks.
Hitting against reflex is good.
If it misses the main target, check another thing in front of the gunner. Not an issue in ship to ship combat.
Cannon balls do structural damage or 3D20.
Firearms do 1D20.I tried to use a gun once, with my mother supervising, and I found out it was not easy. Also I have heard of a case where a crook and a shopkeeper emptied their pistols at each other well within point blank range and did not hit each other at all. If you are going to use Criticle Hit cards, use them for guns.
Again, this all is way more complicated than it needs to be. Train for 2d6 weeks? Why not simply make them all superior weapons, requiring a feat to be used properly?
1d20 damage? No one is going to use anything else, regardless of how long it takes to train.
You're making up hodgepodge rules for things that are already handled well by the game. Totally unnecessary.
Well that was brutal.
I'm adding this to the list of topics I don't visit or post on.I think if I ever play 4th edition I will make a gnome wizard who uses magic to destroy anyone who has a gun because it's a fantasy world anyway. At least I won't play any modules that have guns in them.
I would have justt deleted the earlier post but this messageboard is defective that way.
To each their own, but guns wouldn't work for my group.
IMO compromises to maintain play balance would eliminate a lot of the believability (and perhaps a lot of the point). In real life guns require little to no special training (they're not superior weapons in the rules-sense) and do a disproportionately large amount of damage. There are no real trade-offs in terms of advantages & disadvantages -- which is bad ju-ju in 4e!
But in terms of implementation, it occurs to me that reloading within the frame of a combat round is not particularly practical, so a gun might be the equivalent of an encounter power you can buy (as others have suggested).
And I think making them magic items with associated levels turns them into just that -- magic items. Not guns.
Your mileage may vary :)
Which reminds me. Since I need to make a whole bunch of powers associated with a class that uses guns can anyone suggest some good 'Gung-fu' movies I can watch for inspiration?
Underworld had some sort of magic rounds.
Bullets that emit a sunburst especially when they hit.
There was a TV show Mercs? One member was a sniper.
In Hawaii Five 0, Danno was a police sharpshooter.
There was a SWAT movie.
Ultra Violet used guns.
The Three Amigos had a trick shooter.
Actually, the taking aim feat suggested elsewhere is useful here as well. Basically you spend a move action to get +2 to hit your target. As long as you do not move or change targets you still have the bonus to hit.
Since the Dragonpistols in my campaign are just regular items, just like any other weapon they can be found in magical variants (or enchanted).
That way you can have a +1 Thundering Dragonpistol or a +4 Flameburst Dragonpistol.
But just like there are no +X arrows in 4E, I think you should stay clear of various types of magical ammo (see phb p.232).
I have allowed silver bullets though!