Can you use power attack and combat expertise in the same round, and would the penalties stack? If yes could you please provide a reference so I may show to my group.
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In my opinion you can use both power attack and combat expertise in the same round. I think that the penalties would stack.
For reference take a look at page 92 of the players handbook for Combat expertise, and Page 98 of the players handbook for power attack.
For combat expertise take a look at the first sentence in the description. The operative word is “When”. To me this means that using the Combat expertise is a “non action”. It is part of your attack or full attack action.
For Power attack feat, look at the first sentence of the power attack feat description. I would also call using the power attack as a “non action” because you decide to make use of your power attack feat, on your turn but before you make your attack roll.
I would say that the penalties stack, because the text states, in both descriptions of the feats power attack and combat expertise, that you have to take a penalty to your attack roll in order to get the bonus the feat allows for.
I am not sure where in the player’s handbook or the DMG where a “non action” is defined, but I found a definition on page 7 of the Rules Compendium. I am sure a non action is defined somewhere in the SRD.
I hope this helps. I am not a rules lawyer and dislike dealing with them. I have found a good way to shut them up is to give them a notebook. Tell them you are making a ruling now, add the caveat that you might make a mistake here and there, and if they have an issue with your adjudication of the rules, ask them to write down the points they would like to go over with you. Tell them that you will go over these points at either the end of the gaming session, or if there isn’t time, you will read the points over the week, and at the beginning of next games session, you can go over the rulings with them.
I have found that this strikes balance between shutting a player down entirely and letting someone tie the game up for 20 minutes as the rules are parsed this way and that.
I have also found that some people simply like to argue a point.
The DMG is full of all sorts of useful tidbits. I suggest looking on page 6 of the DMG at the section on adjudicating. On page 8 there is another interesting paragraph with the heading “ The bottom line”. Finally I would suggest on page 13 of the DMg there is a short section on “knowing the rules”.
I hope this helps. I apologize for going on and on. I can get pedantic sometimes. Here you have asked simple question about weather the feats power attack and combat expertise can be used in the same round, and if their penalties stack, and in turn I have deposited a dump truck load of thoughts about dealing with rules lawyers and how to adjudicate the game, which I am sure you know how to do quite well.
I hope this helps.
Can you use power attack and combat expertise in the same round, and would the penalties stack? If yes could you please provide a reference so I may show to my group.
As Elyas said, yes, to both your questions.
The key (and I've had the same urge) is that both feats require a penalty, not a reduction to base attack bonus. They are simply limited by base attack bonus. And all penalties stack (they are untyped as of 3.5).
One way of thinking about it that might break out of the confusion is that you can use *more* than your base attack bonus in penalties. For instance if you had a +6 Base attack bonus, you could power attack for 6, *and* Combat Expertise for 5, for a total penalty of -11.
In my opinion you can use both power attack and combat expertise in the same round. I think that the penalties would stack.
For reference take a look at page 92 of the players handbook for Combat expertise, and Page 98 of the players handbook for power attack.For combat expertise take a look at the first sentence in the description. The operative word is “When”. To me this means that using the Combat expertise is a “non action”. It is part of your attack or full attack action.
For Power attack feat, look at the first sentence of the power attack feat description. I would also call using the power attack as a “non action” because you decide to make use of your power attack feat, on your turn but before you make your attack roll.
I would say that the penalties stack, because the text states, in both descriptions of the feats power attack and combat expertise, that you have to take a penalty to your attack roll in order to get the bonus the feat allows for.
I am not sure where in the player’s handbook or the DMG where a “non action” is defined, but I found a definition on page 7 of the Rules Compendium. I am sure a non action is defined somewhere in the SRD.
I hope this helps. I am not a rules lawyer and dislike dealing with them. I have found a good way to shut them up is to give them a notebook. Tell them you are making a ruling now, add the caveat that you might make a mistake here and there, and if they have an issue with your adjudication of the rules, ask them to write down the points they would like to go over with you. Tell them that you will go over these points at either the end of the gaming session, or if there isn’t time, you will read the points over the week, and at the beginning of next games session, you can go over the rulings with them.
I have found that this strikes balance between shutting a player down entirely and letting someone tie the game up for 20 minutes as the rules are parsed this way and that.I have also found that some people simply like to argue a...
Oh I dont mind you going on. I appreciate your help.
