So I'm going to be giving up my DM screen to one of my players for our first 4E campaign. The player in question has a pretty tough task in front of him as he's never DMed before and, maybe worse for him, I created a real hardcore 'Player vs. the DM' environment in our 3.5 campaign. I'm pretty sure thats not going to be his style but I'm not sure how quick the other players will be to give up their antagonism. Especially for two of the players that have played under me for decades and now have 'The DM is ENEMY #1' engraved into their psyche.
In a related note my DM will almost certianly run the new Dungeon Magazine AP which may not provide him as much support for running a good game as would be ideal (especially if your DMing for the first time for a group of players used to playing under a very experienced and generally very [over]confident DM).
So whats some good advice for a player playing under a fledgling DM in order to make the game a better experience for everyone at the table?
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This happens to you all the time in organized play. I have sat down at convention tables on many occasions and had DMs who were way behind me and several players at the table in terms of their rules knowledge and skill set.
In general however, good players grow good DMs.
I would say keep focused on the story. Let the DM make rules errors as long as they are not lethal. Coach him after thefact so he knows what he missed. If another player calls him on an error, let him handle it if he can, if not, chime in with your opnion and encourage everyone to stay focused on the story and moving the game forward.
I would also be as "pro-Dm" as you can be. That is, don't get sucked into the us vs. them. My DM style has always been about collaborative. Help him move the narrative forward.
4.0 is much, much, much, much simpler to DM than 4.0. He should be fine on the rules very quickly. The harder thing for most folks to master is the "soft elements" of basic acting, NPC differentiation, and narrative pacing.
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I created a real hardcore 'Player vs. the DM' environment in our 3.5 campaign. I'm pretty sure thats not going to be his style but I'm not sure how quick the other players will be to give up their antagonism. Especially for two of the players that have played under me for decades and now have 'The DM is ENEMY #1' engraved into their psyche.
Have you spoken to the other players about this new emphasis? Have you asked them to tone it down, until everyone's got used to the new rules?
Also, talk to the new DM (if you haven't already). Let him know that if you do make suggestions or corrections, it's for the good of the game, and not an attempt at a coup to get 'your' game back.
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I created a real hardcore 'Player vs. the DM' environment in our 3.5 campaign. I'm pretty sure thats not going to be his style but I'm not sure how quick the other players will be to give up their antagonism. Especially for two of the players that have played under me for decades and now have 'The DM is ENEMY #1' engraved into their psyche.Have you spoken to the other players about this new emphasis? Have you asked them to tone it down, until everyone's got used to the new rules?
Also, talk to the new DM (if you haven't already). Let him know that if you do make suggestions or corrections, it's for the good of the game, and not an attempt at a coup to get 'your' game back.
That would be the best advice - put the problems you might have in the open, discuss them, maybe come up with a way for you to help in game when the DM wants it (sometimes a simple "I'm not sure about this...')
When you do help, make sure you explain WHY, and not just WHAT.
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How about dividing up some of the DMing chores between the players?
In-game stuff like initiative tracking, rule-checking, etc.
At the least, each player should be clear how their own powers work, and have the text to hand, to avoid any delays. Delays lead to nervousness and flustered mistakes or hasty rulings.
Well I was thinking the thread might expand a little more on general advice for playing under a green DM instead of specifically dealing with my issues.
But since we do mostly seem to be talking about me (one of my favourite topics, really).
Lets see. My green DM won't be week on the rules. Normally he's the rules lawyer of the group. I actually worked hard to make sure I was at least as knowledgeable as he was when I was DMing (you look everything you have any doubts about after the session and you take notes on everything you have doubts about.) Rules will be his strongest point, he'll know them as well or better then the rest of the table.
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Well I was thinking the thread might expand a little more on general advice for playing under a green DM instead of specifically dealing with my issues.
But since we do mostly seem to be talking about me (one of my favourite topics, really).
Lets see. My green DM won't be week on the rules. Normally he's the rules lawyer of the group. I actually worked hard to make sure I was at least as knowledgeable as he was when I was DMing (you look everything you have any doubts about after the session and you take notes on everything you have doubts about.) Rules will be his strongest point, he'll know them as well or better then the rest of the table.
I would suggest then sitting with him for a prep session, giving him tips on how to make things work for him. Custom stat blocks, initiative tracking, PC tracking for secret rolls (if he goes that route), what books to have on hand, NPC personality guides, whatever you find makes your prep time easier.
Most of the joy of DMing can be won or lost with a prep session. It's like homework. If you can do it well, you may not realize the benefits, but once you do get them it is worth it!
I've not really spoken to the other players on the topic of trying to be nice to the new DM and I'm not really sure if I should. This whole thing is kind of 'tribal'. It acts as a team building exercise in some sense - its one of the reasons I encouraged it at my table when I was DMing.
Thing is I'm not sure if trying to get them to cool it will dampen the mood. If everyone goes listless instead of being high energy even if it comes with constantly needling the DM I'm not sure I'd get thanks from the new DM. That said I don't have to participate in the aspects of these tribal antics that involve heckling the DM and can still join the tribe by participating in the antics that are not anti-DM like high fiving each other and hoisting the girls into the air after we win a big victory.
I'm really not sure how easy it is to sit down and talk logically to the other players. Nothing about this 'tribal' behaviour is logical or rational and it never has been. Its got all the rationalism of sports fanaticism.
How about dividing up some of the DMing chores between the players?
In-game stuff like initiative tracking, rule-checking, etc.
At the least, each player should be clear how their own powers work, and have the text to hand, to avoid any delays. Delays lead to nervousness and flustered mistakes or hasty rulings.
This won't be a problem - I gave new DM well house broken players. They'll keep track of initiative, conditions, hps, help with the mapping and looking up the rules. He may need to sometimes direct them on what he wants done but they've become very good at this sort of thing and show every sign of continuing like this under new DM.
Also, talk to the new DM (if you haven't already). Let him know that if you do make suggestions or corrections, it's for the good of the game, and not an attempt at a coup to get 'your' game back.
I've talked with him regarding what kinds of players he has if you want to slot them into some of the types devised in the 3.5 DMG II or 4E DMG. Covered some of the areas of conflict like which players are point whores, the fact that we have a player that really would rather role play all night long in a group dominated by munchkins.
He's actually got a bit of a personal issue he should try and quickly overcome as a DM. Basically he often personally got into conflict with my explorer player and yet the explorer player is one of the most important players to watch in the group. While he is not the natural leader of the players and he can be annoying, he is usually one of the few players paying really close attention to the world, the plot and any interesting mysteries or anomalies in the plot. That means that when the players come to a fork in the road chances are most of the players realize that they have no idea what they are doing and why they are wherever they are in first place because they have been discussing their awesome new smack down combo during all the plot exposition parts of the adventure. At these points its the explorer player that generally decides what the party is going to do next by framing the possible options for the leader types in such a way that the explorer players favourite option sounds the most appealing.
Hopefully new DM can see past any personal differences he has with the player and quickly learn to capitalize on the fact that he has at least one player thats paying attention to the words coming out of his mouth even when there are no sounds of dice rolling in the background.
Beyond some discussion of the basic traits within the group I've not really tried discussing how to be a DM with new DM as I don't get the feeling he wants my advice on these topics right now.
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So I'm going to be giving up my DM screen to one of my players for our first 4E campaign. The player in question has a pretty tough task in front of him as he's never DMed before and, maybe worse for him, I created a real hardcore 'Player vs. the DM' environment in our 3.5 campaign. I'm pretty sure thats not going to be his style but I'm not sure how quick the other players will be to give up their antagonism. Especially for two of the players that have played under me for decades and now have 'The DM is ENEMY #1' engraved into their psyche.
In a related note my DM will almost certianly run the new Dungeon Magazine AP which may not provide him as much support for running a good game as would be ideal (especially if your DMing for the first time for a group of players used to playing under a very experienced and generally very [over]confident DM).
So whats some good advice for a player playing under a fledgling DM in order to make the game a better experience for everyone at the table?
Yes, you've set him up well. The antagonism isn't a great thing.
A good DM is like a good Director for a movie. He sets the scene, sets the mood, puts in some background or foreground props then lets the actors act out the scene. They're not antagonists, you're both there to have fun and create something unique.
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Lead the other players by example. I ran a game where the players were simply too passive at roleplay and focused on the number crunching. They had little storytelling skills. So I actually wrote a short adventure for someone else to run (a city based chase, encounter with thugs, fast-talking the city watch "they started it officer", and a final showdown). During the adventure I was a player and made a point to roleplay. I rolled a wizard with a sever limp (-10 movement) and a wand of expeditious retreat. He was ill-tempered, rude, and had a nasty habit of picking his over-sized nose and wiping the...results...on his robes which I pantomimed frequently. I went over-the-top since it was a one-shot character (who would want to roleplay nose-picking all the time? ugh) but it really helped the other players figure out what to do.
I'm not saying your players need help roleplaying, but regardless of style, YOUR play style will inspire the others. Just try not to hog the spotlight, that can be a bad "old dm" habit. For example, because my character was not charismatic in the least, the other characters were mechanically suited to diplomacy checks, but that didn't mean my character shut up. Oh no...his inappropriately worded pass at the female watch commander is a frequent (jokingly) tag line we use to mean "bad pick up lines"...it doesn't seem funny typing it, but its one of those things that made that game memorable..."Your hips are a bit narrow, but your breed-able. When does your shift end?"..it's the "your breedable" that stuck, lol.
anyway, thats my 2cp: Lead by example.