Crush attack: attack roll required?

[eastuart]

It's likely going to become relevant in tonight's AoW session (when fighting Brazzemal in KotR), and I can't find a clear rule that covers this, online or in the books. Does a dragon's crush attack require an attack roll?

(Ability description says you make a Ref save to avoid being pinned, but it doesn't seem to apply to the damage.)

Also, it feels like a missed Ref save should also result in being prone as well as pinned, but I don't see that this is an actual effect - please let me know if I'm missing something there.

My current opinion is the following:

- Damage is automatic if you're affected (i.e., under his body when he lands)
- Ref save avoids being pinned (and Freedom of Movement doesn't help here, since it's a save, not a grapple check)
- PCs who save pick a square adjacent to the dragon and aren't prone
- PC's who don't save are pinned but aren't prone if/when they escape

Any well-supported contradictory takes?

Thanks!

[Peruhain of Brithondy]

The rules are a bit ambiguous. Here's my take:

Dragon lands on victims as standard action.

Victims make reflex save, and if they succeed they manage to get out of the way (and are moved to the nearest square adjacent to the dragon's "footprint" on the battle board).

Those who fail reflex save take bludgeoning damage and are pinned.

Next round, if dragon wishes to maintain pin, it makes a grapple check at normal bonus against each currently pinned victim. If it succeeds against a victim, the victim is pinned and takes crushing damage again. If it fails, that particular victim gets loose and can crawl out from under the dragon. (Dragon can't make an AOO at this point unless all the victims are free, since it is "in a grapple.")

Freedom of movement prevents you from being pinned, but you still take the initial bludgeoning damage if you fail your reflex save.

[Jeremy Mac Donald]

I don't see any indication that a roll is required to perform a Crush Attack. The rules here look a little, well ragged around the edges, but I have no doubt that you could play them exactly as written and they would work after a fashion.

I'll also point out that by the time the Dragon is likely to be able to use this kind of an attack the PCs are going to be very powerful. I suspect that they won't have any trouble getting out of this sort of situation. Dangerous grapples are just to problematic for PCs not to develop counter measures by the time your beginning to head for the high levels.

A Dragon can probably jump on a 17th level character but I serously doubt that they character won't have an out to remove itself from the grapple. Not to mention that Grapples, according to the Rules Compendium, are not really something that a Dragon wants to do since it can do far more damage using its claw/claw/bite routine, though I suppose that it could transfer a PC to its claw or mouth and take him away for some more 'private dinning'. Still thats the kind of theory that won't work in practise - the players will have some way of countering this.

[drsparnum]

I don't think you need to move PCs who make the save out of the dragon's square...

A dragon can only use the crush attack on an opponent 3 size categories smaller than itself (MM p68).

Creatures 3 sizes larger or smaller can move through one another's square (PH p148).

I guess it doesn't specifically state the two can stop in one another's square, only move through, so it's somewhat vague. But if you say they can't sit in one another's square, do you really want to force a colossal dragon to use an overrun action to get to your PC druid when your PC summons a normal owl between himself and the dragon? I'd just let them sit on one another's square (and take appropriate AoO).

[Peruhain of Brithondy]

Forgot about the point DSParnum is making. I'd let them co-occupy the square as he says.