Hello. I've been playing 3.5 D&D for ~7 months now, all as a DM. Mostly the previous stuff has been a bunch of fun oneshots, with lots of silliness thrown in. However, my three players and I want to try something new and more serious: the Savage Tide Adventure Path. I need to know:
1. How easy is it to DM this?
2. Will I be required to make many adaptations?
3. Do you have any tips on DMing Savage Tide in general?
4. Where can I find the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan conversion that is rumored to exist somewhere on these boards? My searches have failed me.
Here are the characters, all starting at level one:
Human Scout
Human Dragonfire Adept
(race undetermined) either a Wu Jen or a Warmage, probably Warmage
The main problem is the lank of a real "tank" to take damage and be a frontline fighter. The scout plans to do more ranged combat than melee. Player 2 plans to spam his breath weapon and cast a lot. Player 3 is unpredictable, so I'm not sure what his combat style is going to be like.
I think I might have to stick in a Fighter (for tanking) or a Cleric (fairly good fighter and useful for buffs/healing) DMPC, but I would like to avoid that if possible. The players are not opposed to it, but they feel they would rather go it with their characters alone.
Thank you for your input.
Hello. I've been playing 3.5 D&D for ~7 months now, all as a DM. Mostly the previous stuff has been a bunch of fun oneshots, with lots of silliness thrown in. However, my three players and I want to try something new and more serious: the Savage Tide Adventure Path. I need to know:
Sounds like exciting times.
My advice would change a little depending on how you answer two other questions. How old are you personally? How old are your players? How long have you and them been involved in RPGs in general? The younger you are and the less general experience with RPGs you have the more you want to be very conscious that your the cheerleader for a social gathering. Loosing control of the group is more likely if your younger and if your less experienced with RPGs. Your most important balancing act will be maintaining authority with your group (your the DM) and insuring that you never misuse this authority.
I'd suggest getting your hands on the DMG II and reading the tips for DMing in the beginning of that book if you have not already.
1. How easy is it to DM this?
Its got a couple of curve balls but I would not think its really that much tougher then most one shots. They tricky parts are linking the adventures (motivating the players to go on the next adventure), keeping the story going forward and avoiding burn out. This will take a fair bit of time and the players and you need to be on board for an epic.
2. Will I be required to make many adaptations?
Not unless you want to.
3. Do you have any tips on DMing Savage Tide in general?
They need to be hooked up to Lavina and they need to want to help her. There are a variety of options early on in which the players can switch sides or otherwise choose not to be tied to Lavina's apron strings. I think these options are sub-optimal under any circumstances but with only 7 months DMing experience I think their a recipe for disaster. Don't give your players the option to work against Lavina - those options are better used by a very experienced DM that really knows how to motivate their players.
The adventure generally works best if the players are willing to be hero's. They should generally be good - those that are not good should be particularly tied to Lavina. A neutral player thats just a mercenary gets hard to motivate. One that has some kind of life long debt to Lavina or some other story reason why he'd never abandon her is viable however.
Because Lavina is an aristocrat its very easy for her and the players to end up at logger heads. We don't much care to cow tow to authority in rel life and in a role playing game we can buck authority without obvious consequence. Don't play her snooty or greedy or haughty or anything else thats going to rub your players the wrong way. They need to like her and want to help her.
Play up the story between her and her brother. Thats the most interesting story in the entire AP. This AP often moves from dramatic scene to dramatic scene so your going to want to try and emphasize the drama.
Make a contract with your players before you begin to actually play. Get them to agree that they have to work with you to stay on plot and that they will help you tie their characters to their patron. Be ready to remind them of this as its very easy to get into 'acquire lucre' mode as a player and the other players feed into that in a kind of feedback loop. They need to work with you at finding cool story reasons why their characters want to participate in this Epic. Remind them of that if they get to far off track.
This AP is brutally tough. How experienced are your players? How much do they power game? If their not experienced powergamers give you may want to start them at 2nd level and give them a better then average point buy.
4. Where can I find the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan conversion that is rumored to exist somewhere on these boards? My searches have failed me.
Not sure what your talking about here.
Here are the characters, all starting at level one:
Human Scout
Human Dragonfire Adept
(race undetermined) either a Wu Jen or a Warmage, probably Warmage
I only count three - even four is kind of short handed for this AP. If you only have three players I'd start them at 3rd.
The main problem is the lank of a real "tank" to take damage and be a frontline fighter. The scout plans to do more ranged combat than melee. Player 2 plans to spam his breath weapon and cast a lot. Player 3 is unpredictable, so I'm not sure what his combat style is going to be like.
Lack of a tank is an issue. I also think Warmages are not really very good mages once your moving into higher levels. The Mages job is to solve the parties problems - to fix whatever the hell has just gone wrong. Warmages are useless in that role. They basically just archers with unique arrows. Surviving at higher levels without either a Sorcerer who has been very careful about spell selection and bought lots of scrolls (just in case we need this spell) or a proper wizard is pretty difficult. I'm not really familiar with the Dragonfire Adept class - is that a cleric? I sure hope its basically a cleric.
A scout archer build? Does that work with the skirmish damage?
We should get to come to this thread and offer some suggestions on making a good Scouter Archer Build. I'm pretty concerned with this character. Especially if you only have three players.
I think I might have to stick in a Fighter (for tanking) or a Cleric (fairly good fighter and useful for buffs/healing) DMPC, but I would like to avoid that if possible. The players are not opposed to it, but they feel they would rather go it with their characters alone.
Your players are probably right, DM PCs are usually bad news, but I'd give them some levels and have Lavina throw around a lot of charged items (wands, potions, scrolls what have you). That way if they do start to get to powerful for the AP she can 'run out' of magic items to give them and they'll eventually run out of charges. I'd also at least double the rewards she's offering them.
The biggest danger with a 3 player party is what happens when one player goes down. With only two remaining players it can be really hard to recover from any kind of a set back.
Hi Cowjuicer,
Jeremy has done an excelent job of fielding your questions. I've just strated this campaign after a 4 year shackled city AP. I'll add some input of my own.
1. How easy is it to DM this?
It's pretty straighforward, as long as you keep the story on track. Your players will want to leave the AP's sugested course occasionally. You'll have to decide if that's OK, and how much work you want to put into getting them back into the AP.
2. Will I be required to make many adaptations?
From what I can see, no. But we'll find out soon enough.
Here are the characters, all starting at level one:
Human Scout
Human Dragonfire Adept
(race undetermined) either a Wu Jen or a Warmage, probably WarmageThe main problem is the lank of a real "tank" to take damage and be a frontline fighter. The scout plans to do more ranged combat than melee. Player 2 plans to spam his breath weapon and cast a lot. Player 3 is unpredictable, so I'm not sure what his combat style is going to be like.
I think I might have to stick in a Fighter (for tanking) or a Cleric (fairly good fighter and useful for buffs/healing) DMPC, but I would like to avoid that if possible. The players are not opposed to it, but they feel they would rather go it with their characters alone.
Thank you for your input.
The AP was designed with the 4 roles in mind. I think a party without healing or a tank will find some chalenges too tough to overcome. You should try to find a way to incorporate all roles. Perhaps multiclassing or using the gestalt rules offers a solution.
anyway, good luck!
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1. How easy is it to DM this?
I cant say from experience how hard it is to run this camapign is but I would suggest thinking about it as 12 separate adventures and deal with them one at a time.
2. Will I be required to make many adaptations?
If your a new DM or new to RPG's in general I wouldnt bother trying to do this. This campaign is HUGE! Your hands will be full as it is.
3. Do you have any tips on DMing Savage Tide in general??
All I can suggest is keep in mind that this campaign is HUGE. With a group playing every week for a good 4-5 hours it will take roughly 1.5 - 2 years to finish this thing. So if you want to do it, ask your players if theyre willing to make that kind of commitment. I would also suggest that if you are a new DM to run this more or less buy the book.Focus on the adventures as written and dont try to get to fancy by adding things or changing monsters ect. If you see that your players are getting it to easy tehn consider buffing the encounters a little.
4. Where can I find the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan conversion that is rumored to exist somewhere on these boards? My searches have failed me.?
Again I wouldnt bother with this while small the section on Tamoachan is a fun little romp and anything more may cause you to burn out before you finish the actual campaign itself.
Here are the characters, all starting at level one:
This is where I have some major concerns for you. Three players is going to be tough. As mentioned already above all the AP's are tough and can be real meat grinders to even Min/Maxed characters. Not only that but it seems as if you dont have the 4 basic D&D food groups covered to well(Fighter,Cleric,Rogue,and Wizard).
I can understand you want them to play (and they themselves as well)what they want to play but keep it mind that unless you make things easier on them they will get their asses handed to them. That first encounter on the Blue Nixie is a real killer.As mentioned before DONT let them be evil. This will really screw you and the campaign.
Im not sure what else I can add except thins is probably the best of the Dungeon APs.It can be a little railroading at times but you should make it feel as if it was the characters choices that direct the campaign flow. And most importantly keep in mind that your doing this to have fun with your friends and dont take it too seriously!
I agree with the previous post that much of the answers to your questions depends upon you, your group and your collective maturity, both in gaming and generally. However, I’d like to throw out some tips that will be helpful to you regardless.
First, as with any module or campaign setting, you, the DM, should read all the material all the way through at least once. Have a good understanding of the overall story and what it all leads up to. An Adventure Path is a journey, and if you don’t know the destination, that journey is going to be very challenging. Additionally, you’ll want to peruse these boards for ideas and tips that others have shared (it sounds like you’ve already done some of this). As you do, you will find in very short order many instances of phrases like “I wish I’d thought of this/that when I was running this AP.” That’s your cue not to miss an opportunity. If there is some story element that would be great to see come to fruition in “Tides of Dread,” it may be necessary to have already planted the seeds during “The Bullywug Gambit,” for example.
Second, it is best to think of Savage Tide as an episodic television serial. What are the things you enjoy most about your favorite program? Plot is key, but the STAP has given you a good framework for that. The “special effects” are entirely in how you describe things as a narrator. However, one of the most important elements in a TV program is character development. There should be now character in your adventure that is without purpose. The AP gives a good deal of information about the NPCs – their backgrounds, motivations, etc. Think through how they will relate to the PCs. Remember, you are not playing a video game, you are playing a role playing game, and its success varies directly on how well you play the roles. Frankly, I can’t stress this enough. It will never become boring if the players care about the characters. Long stretches at sea can be glossed over, but if you do that, you are missing a wonderful opportunity to build the story elements, reveal some of the effort you have put into developing the NPCs and inject life into otherwise flat NPCs.
This leads directly into my third point, and this is a bit touchy. Again, this depends entirely on the maturity level of your group. There is a strong insinuation in the AP of romance. A relationship between Lavinia and the dominant PC seems to be expected. There are several other NPCs who logically seem to lend themselves to potential romance. Also, as the previous post alludes, the relationship between Lavina and Vanthis suggests some adult themes which are discussed elsewhere in the these boards. It is up to you to determine how mature a “rating” your adventure takes, anywhere from “15” to “18” (or PG-13 to NC-17, using the U.S. rating systems). This decision is critical to success of your campaign and cannot be made lightly.
Lastly, search out the plethora of blogs that players and DMs have done as they have gone through this AP. I think that http://savagetidewithfiretrolls.blogspot.com/ is one of the best, though that group has not yet completed the STAP.
I hope these suggestions have been helpful. Cheers!
1. How easy is it to DM this?
I won't lie...it's a big task. I'd advise you to read, at the very least, the adventure summaries at the beginning of each adventure before beginning the path. This will give you a quick idea of the direction of the whole path so that you can keep the "big picture" in mind as you go. I'd advise to read up an adventure or two in advance of where you're at, too, so that you can setup/tie-in things to come. It's a big task at the beginning, but it'll make it easier to stay on top of things as you go.
2. Will I be required to make many adaptations?
That's 100% up to you. You don't have to, but I'd encourage you to do so. Nobody knows your group like you do. Do what "feels" best for your group once you get comfortable in the GM seat.
3. Do you have any tips on DMing Savage Tide in general?
The best advice I've ever heard is "think of what could be the most awesome thing to have happen in the moment, and make it happen." Seriously, I don't think I've ever heard anything better than that. My own advice would be to not be afraid to stray from the path if it's not working for you.
4. Where can I find the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan conversion that is rumored to exist somewhere on these boards? My searches have failed me.
Not sure what you're talking about. Having just passed the Tamoachan part, I hope I didn't miss out on something awesome!
Here are the characters, all starting at level one:
Human Scout
Human Dragonfire Adept
(race undetermined) either a Wu Jen or a Warmage, probably Warmage
I think that a scout could work pretty well in this campaign. Not sure what a Dragonfire Adept is...but without a cleric or wizard, your group might struggle. My group has a multi-class cleric/wizard as its only caster, and that makes things difficult enough. Having neither might be a death sentence...or at least require wands/potions/scrolls galore.
I think I might have to stick in a Fighter (for tanking) or a Cleric (fairly good fighter and useful for buffs/healing) DMPC, but I would like to avoid that if possible. The players are not opposed to it, but they feel they would rather go it with their characters alone.
There are going to be a LOT of NPCs in this game, especially when you hit Sea Wyvern's Wake. I'd be hesitant to add another, but a cleric could really help your group. If you're going to add a DMPC, I'd keep him a level or two below the rest of the group. They are to be the heroes, and don't like being shown up by a pet DMPC.
Thank you for your input.
You're welcome. Good luck and have fun!
WOW. All of you are so helpful. Let me answer as many questions as I can:
1. Maturity Level/Commitment: We are all in the 14-15 age group. A one- to two-year commitment might be a bit much; I will ask the players if they are willing to commit and willing to follow along with the plot. I do not think they will mind the second point, but the first might be a bit daunting. As the upcoming year is part of high school there is the large possibility of not being able to play very often during the school year, thus leading to stagnation and boredom. (?)
2. Basic stats on the Dragonfire Adept: d8 HD. Gets a breath weapon, fire damage, that goes from 1d6 to 9d6 or 10d6, can't remember. Also gets invocations, like a warlock, but only 8 instead of 12, and it's a different list. To make up for the lost invocations, the Adept gets 5 or 6 "breath weapon effects" to make their breath weapon more effective, such as Slowing Breath which makes enemies caught in the breath half-speed, or Fivefold Breath of Tiamat, which shoots 3 cones and two lines of energy damage, each at full damage for the breath. So yeah... a blaster. NOT the cleric you guys hoped for.
3. The Warmage guy: He's really excited about playing "this cool class that gets to blow people up AND wear armor! AWESOME!" and the only other class that interested him was... Dread Necromancer. Would this be a better choice, as it could create mooks to work as semi-tanks?
4. Romance: I don't plan to go too far into this... The players might jokingly try to hit on Lavinia, but I doubt it will go anywhere serious.
Do you have any plans for romance if this goes farther?
5. The scout: plans to act as the party Rogue, seeing as he gets the important Rogue ability of Trapfinding at level one. Also, this player has told me that if he needs to he will play a Fighter so as to give the party a tank... but then there will be no Rogue.
Another thing worth mentioning: The players are more hacker-slashers then roleplayers. Their characters will interact with NPCs, but they have a hard time "acting as their character"---the most RPing they do is respond to NPC questions/comments. I realize that this can be a problem, but I don't know how to motivate them to truly roleplay and explore the game world around them. Do you have any tips on how to interest them in a bit more RP?
The "most awesome thing to happen right now" is something I have already heard about and plan to use. It keeps the players that much more focused on the game and the task at hand. I appreciate you bringing it up!
4. Romance: I don't plan to go too far into this... The players might jokingly try to hit on Lavinia, but I doubt it will go anywhere serious.
Do you have any plans for romance if this goes farther?
Given the age range you are in, MY gut says stay clear. Romance is difficult to manage with an otherwise mature group of adults. No offence intended, but it might be nigh impossible with teens. The ONLY way it can work is if it is taken seriously by you, as the DM, and by the subject PC. My advise is to understand Lavinia’s character and play her appropriately. She is a proper lady of nobility and will not respond positively to oafish skirt-chancing. Unless you have a serious romantic in your group, I’d play Lavinia as “Let’s just keep this professional – you work for ME.”
Another thing worth mentioning: The players are more hacker-slashers then roleplayers. Their characters will interact with...
That’s very unfortunate. While there is a lot of combat to be had here, culminating in the D&D dream combat, the AP is very rich with role playing possibilities and it would be a shame for your group to look back on it years from now and regret what they missed. Think of Star Wars if it was all lightsaber combat, shootouts and dogfights without the Skywalker family story, the Han/Leia romance, the rise and fall of Anakin, etc.
I don't know how to quote, so I will just directly reply...
1. Romance: Good, this is what I was thinking of doing as well. "I'm paying you, so no fooling around" seems a good mentality for Lavinia.
2. As to the roleplaying... Do you have any tips on encouraging PC development and RP during the campaign path?
Also: if the guy who wants to play a Warmage decides to play a Dread Necromancer, how will it affect the make-up of the party? I'm not very familiar with DN but I can of course read up on it over the next six days before Week 0 char-gen.
I don't know how to quote, so I will just directly reply...
If you look just above the post you wish to quote, you'll see a link that says "reply." Clicking that link will allow you to reply/quote.
1. Romance: Good, this is what I was thinking of doing as well. "I'm paying you, so no fooling around" seems a good mentality for Lavinia.
It's likely to become a distraction if the group isn't mature enough to handle it. I'd recommend sticking to the business relationship aspect.
2. As to the roleplaying... Do you have any tips on encouraging PC development and RP during the campaign path?
The best way to encourage PC development and role-playing is in how you portray your NPCs. Have the NPCs react appropriately to the way your PCs behave. When the players realize that what they do actually effects the NPCs in the game, they'll start to play into it. (Or I would hope so, anyway.)
Also: if the guy who wants to play a Warmage decides to play a Dread Necromancer, how will it affect the make-up of the party? I'm not very familiar with DN but I can of course read up on it over the next six days before Week 0 char-gen.
I'm not sure exactly about the Dread Necromancer, either, but it's probably more versatile than the Warmage. The player will LOVE the Parrot Island part, but may be disappointed in the long-term lack of undead. Still, whatever the player wants to play will ultimately be more interesting than something you push on him. Feel free to tweak things to make it more suitable for your group.
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First off: Welcome to the Savage Tide, and I hope you'll enjoy it like we did.
Secondly: Be prepared for a long and drawn-out campaign if you want to go all the way from 1-20. Not sure if you've ever done that, but this was the first time for us, and we've been playing 3.5 together for at least 4 or 5 years.
Thirdly: I would highly recommend you read the "Adventure Synopsis" for all 12 adventures, possibly getting a hold of dungeon 138 (think thats the one...with the preview for all 12 of the ST adventures). Being able to plan ahead for the next big plot tie-in will make your life so much easier.
As far as tips for actually running this AP: Be prepared to TPK the party you described above. No major AC, no Wizard, no Cleric means they will likely be killed off in the 2nd or 3rd adventure. No fault of yours or (likely) theirs, but there are some nasty nasty encounters in there, and without all the bases covered, they're looking at some hurt.
Consider Gestalt rules (see www.d20srd.org for more info...under alternate rules near the bottom middle of the page) if you can't pick up another player, and consider the Leadership feat. I had 6 players, 3 of which had cohorts. Check the savage tide obituaries for their deaths (and there were many) and for other parties that had more than 4 players.
Gestalted characters can't make up for the actions in combat, but will likely have the necessary bases covered when bad stuff happens (like being able to cure ability damage or remove diseases...very important in the early adventures)
As far as RP'ing....if YOU as dm RP your npc's, try to avoid the movie-quotes and OOC comments, they will eventually pick up on your habits and begin to emulate you. That is, EVENTUALLY...sometimes never, oftentimes after much time has elapsed. Don't fight it, just strive to be the best RP Role-Model you can, and if they don't want to, let it slide.
The game is all about having fun with your buddies, so i generally try not to get all antsy on game-days.
As a Hack-N-Slash campaign, the party will miss out on a bunch of RP opportunities and chances to really flesh out the characters and story, but there's PLENTY of fightin' to go around...generally about 1/2 to 3/4 of our gametime was devoted to combats, especially in the 14-18th lvl range.
enjoy, peruse the STAP boards for more treasure troves, and dont forget to add your Glories and Obituaries to the ongoing threads (plenty of great reading in there, as well!)
-t
2. As to the roleplaying... Do you have any tips on encouraging PC development and RP during the campaign path?
Indeed, I have several.
First, and possibly most important, is Tracer’s suggestion above: You set the mood and you set the example by how you play the NPCs. Think them through as if they were your characters (in essence, they are). If you flesh out their stats, give them a back-story, think through their manner and motives, it should come somewhat naturally.
Think through the story you want to tell. Think of it as your favorite movie or TV program. Then try to run the game accordingly. You are the writer/director and the payers are actors. When you run combats, imagine what they would look like on the screen and describe the action in that way. Instead of saying, “He missed you. What did you get? 18? His AC is 21. You miss,” say, “You duck low avoiding his swinging blade, though you feel it ruffle your hair. You take the opportunity to thrust your sword up into his side, but it glances off his breastplate…”
Don’t shy away from improvisation. Don’t just read what an NPC is meant to have said in the text. Engage the PCs in conversation. Become the NPC; think like the NPC.
Although I am not suggesting LARPing (Live Action Role Playing), props can be very helpful. Anything that helps the players visualize, from miniatures on a map to handouts to an actual bag of prop coins. Miniatures are great when you have a large monster to fight – this gives the “Oh, sh--!” factor. A handout of a letter, scroll, journal entry, or whatever, let’s the players read for themselves without your voice unintentionally drawing attention to clues they might miss on their own. It also gives them something to refer to later as their characters would. And there is noting like haggling with a merchant and actually tossing some coins on the table and hearing the clinking sound.
Lastly, when you have envisioned how you want the role-playing to go, share that vision with your players out of context. Let them know what you are trying to do and garner buy-in from them directly. Just as someone mentioned trying to establish an agreement with your group regarding how long the AP will take, likewise establish a partnership with them regarding rich role-playing. Explain that you want this campaign to be different, more dramatic and narrative. Use the analogy of a movie or TV program.
I hope it works out for you.
2. As to the roleplaying... Do you have any tips on encouraging PC development and RP during the campaign path?
Indeed, I have several.
First, and possibly most important, is Tracer’s suggestion above: You set the mood and you set the example by how you play the NPCs. Think them through as if they were your characters (in essence, they are). If you flesh out their stats, give them a back-story, think through their manner and motives, it should come somewhat naturally.
Think through the story you want to tell. Think of it as your favorite movie or TV program. Then try to run the game accordingly. You are the writer/director and the payers are actors. When you run combats, imagine what they would look like on the screen and describe the action in that way. Instead of saying, “He missed you. What did you get? 18? His AC is 21. You miss,” say, “You duck low avoiding his swinging blade, though you feel it ruffle your hair. You take the opportunity to thrust your sword up into his side, but it glances off his breastplate…”
Don’t shy away from improvisation. Don’t just read what an NPC is meant to have said in the text. Engage the PCs in conversation. Become the NPC; think like the NPC.
Although I am not suggesting LARPing (Live Action Role Playing), props can be very helpful. Anything that helps the players visualize, from miniatures on a map to handouts to an actual bag of prop coins. Miniatures are great when you have a large monster to fight – this gives the “Oh, sh--!” factor. A handout of a letter, scroll, journal entry, or whatever, let’s the players read for themselves without your voice unintentionally drawing attention to clues they might miss on their own. It also gives them something to refer to later as their characters would. And there is noting like haggling with a merchant and actually tossing some coins on the table and hearing the clinking sound.
Lastly, when you have envisioned how you want the role-playing to go, share that...
Thank you very, very much. I should be able to convince them that roleplaying and description make an impact and help build a campaign that's at least ten times as memorable. The thing you wrote here...
When you run combats, imagine what they would look like on the screen and describe the action in that way. Instead of saying, “He missed you. What did you get? 18? His AC is 21. You miss,” say, “You duck low avoiding his swinging blade, though you feel it ruffle your hair. You take the opportunity to thrust your sword up into his side, but it glances off his breastplate…”
is something I already do to some extent. I see what I rolled or what they rolled, then try to at least say something along the lines of "Your morningstar crushes the skeleton's ribcage, sending bone shards bouncing off the walls. It slumps and the skull rolls off." This lets them know that it is dead. If it wasn't dead, I would say "The morningstar breaks off a few bones from the skeleton's ribcage. It recoils a bit, then turns its eerily grinning head toward you, raising its axe." After a statement such as that, I may or may not state damage (in case they are cursed but don't know it or somesuch unknown effect upon their combat prowess).
WOW. All of you are so helpful. Let me answer as many questions as I can:
1. Maturity Level/Commitment: We are all in the 14-15 age group. A one- to two-year commitment might be a bit much; I will ask the players if they are willing to commit and willing to follow along with the plot. I do not think they will mind the second point, but the first might be a bit daunting. As the upcoming year is part of high school there is the large possibility of not being able to play very often during the school year, thus leading to stagnation and boredom. (?)
I can't really answer to the time commitment problems as high school can be a really tough time for gaming (parties as well as girls (or boys if some of your players are female) are one hell of a distraction at this age). Certainly it was a significant factor when I was DMing at 14. On the other hand you can do sessions that no adult can really handle. At that age we'd sometimes play for the better part of a weekend - you can get a lot of gaming done if you play for 18 hours (even with breaks to totally empty out the hosts parents fridge of everything thats even vaguely edible).
My biggest problem with DMing at this age was the arguments. Striking a balance between having the authority to run the game and not abusing that authority is critical. Avoid letting frustration allow you to make poor choices. Don't single out any player for special treatment - try and give some good spotlight time to all your players. When your DMing all the players are equally your friend and your enemy, no one gets special treatment.
Drama is tough at this age - DMing a good game can be pretty corny - especially if you want it to be fun and engaging in a mostly hack and slash game. Try and let go of the fact that your making an idiot of yourself while you DM. Part of your job as the DM is to make an idiot of yourself while playing the monsters and other NPCs.
There is a podcast *here* thats meant to show off 4E. Ignore the aspects of 4E. What I'd like you to look at is the DM David Noonan as I think he is doing a bang up job of being an action orientated (read hack and slash) DM in this session.
2. Basic stats on the Dragonfire Adept: d8 HD. Gets a breath weapon, fire damage, that goes from 1d6 to 9d6 or 10d6, can't remember. Also gets invocations, like a warlock, but only 8 instead of 12, and it's a different list. To make up for the lost invocations, the Adept gets 5 or 6 "breath weapon effects" to make their breath weapon more effective, such as Slowing Breath which makes enemies caught in the breath half-speed, or Fivefold Breath of Tiamat, which shoots 3 cones and two lines of energy damage, each at full damage for the breath. So yeah... a blaster. NOT the cleric you guys hoped for.3. The Warmage guy: He's really excited about playing "this cool class that gets to blow people up AND wear armor! AWESOME!" and the only other class that interested him was... Dread Necromancer. Would this be a better choice, as it could create mooks to work as semi-tanks?
You might well want to consider letting them Gestault. This AP is tough for players that know trick involving 10' poles garnered over 20 years of gaming. Without that your players are going to have an even tougher time.
Head over *here* to check out the Gestault rules. Since your missing every role but rogue get each player to pick up a second class. Some one should take a cleric or Favoured Soul as their second class at the very least.
4. Romance: I don't plan to go too far into this... The players might jokingly try to hit on Lavinia, but I doubt it will go anywhere serious.
Do you have any plans for romance if this goes farther?
Yeah - this is a tough age to do romance if your a bunch of guys. It always just seems...awkward. You don't have to excise it totally from your game even if your uncomfortable delving into the details. You don't have to role play out that your character is falling in love if you don't want to. One can just announce it in 3rd person.
As the DM you might want to try and lead by suggesting that it'd probably help the story along if one of the players volunteers to have their character go all weak in the knees for Lavina. I'm suggesting that you handle this on a meta game level after they have dealt with her for a bit. Literally suggest outside of the game, as a DM to your players, that plot is going to run a lot smoother if at least one of the characters is motivated by more then greed (and the other players need to want to help the first player whatever the stakes). For plot purposes its helpful to have one of the characters hell bent on saving and protecting her. There comes a day when the players are so powerful and wealthy (from looted treasure) that no wealth she could offer them is even meaningful anymore. They are far richer then she will ever be and yet the AP works better if they are still keen to help and protect her.
You can come up with other reasons beyond love - Maybe the character serves her as all the members of his family have done before for generations because her family saved them from a fate worse then death generations ago. Maybe one of the characters God has told them to protect her at all costs as part of a prophesy. She's a secret childhood crush one player never got over - he loves her in secret. etc. Work with your players, suggest some ideas, get them to make some suggestions of their own.
The thing is as the players grow more powerful over the course the AP Lavina transforms from a powerful patron to a junior stake holder in the PC group and yet her story remains the most compelling until near the end of the AP and helping her remains the main motivation behind why the PCs do things. There comes a day when her saying 'you work for me' won't cut it anymore. She's offering a pittance to players that are expecting to clear about 50,000 GP this level.
Thus, if your not going to be able to hook your players in by role playing a Damsel in Distress so compelling that your players will be desperate to save her in game then its more important then ever to work out a contract outside of the game that says that they need to want to work for Lavina and they have emotional reasons why their characters would face death unblinking to help her. Negotiate this with your players and consider their suggestions.
Another thing worth mentioning: The players are more hacker-slashers then roleplayers. Their characters will interact with NPCs, but they have a hard time "acting as their character"---the most RPing they do is respond to NPC questions/comments. I realize that this can be a problem, but I don't know how to motivate them to truly roleplay and explore the game world around them. Do you have any tips on how to interest them in a bit more RP?
First off this will run even if heavy RPing is not really your thing.
In any case your first job is to lead by example. Your second job is to not get to frustrated when your players don't follow your example - you just keep leading by example. The breakthrough into more RP intensive gaming does not necessarily come about in that first campaign. Your doing this partly to make yourself a better DM - so a big part of trying and trying again with good roleplaying is for yourself and to make yourself a better DM. Your players should come to appreciate this in their DM even if they fail, substantially, to follow suit.
That said don't get so carried away that your boring your players. You want to dive in head first with the role playing, even if you feel like an idiot (pretend its stand up, it basically is) but keep your talking under control. The players did not come to listen to you babble for 15 minutes at a time. Make them do something like choose an option or answer a question or some such within two minutes at the very most.
As a younger group you have a tough balancing act to follow. Teenagers have a low tolerance for a wide number of things that the D&D game kind of thrives on. They are not huge fans of corny, sappy, cliches plots and events and yet these all tend to crop up in the game. I'd not try and hide them really - its sort of part and parcel to a D&D game (and adults tend to love this stuff - we cling to it like its a security blanket).
So role play when its called for and put your best into it but don't worry to much. You get better with practise and the plot keeps going even when that last little scene did not exactly convey the effect you were hoping for.
News: The guy who wanted to play a Warmage says that he is considering a Duskblade instead, which would mean (thankfully) a gish to help out the party. He'll have the same HD as the other two guys, some spell-slinging power, and not be all that bad in melee. Is this news as good as I think it is?
Also: How do I edit my posts? I found it yesterday but can't seem to find it today.
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News: The guy who wanted to play a Warmage says that he is considering a Duskblade instead, which would mean (thankfully) a gish to help out the party. He'll have the same HD as the other two guys, some spell-slinging power, and not be all that bad in melee. Is this news as good as I think it is?
Also: How do I edit my posts? I found it yesterday but can't seem to find it today.
Cowjuicer, Im getting the impression you and your group are pretty new to D&D. This aint a bad thing this is great! Take this for what its worth. The APs pretty much run themselves. Everything you need is there for you. As the DM you need to sort of feel out your group. Your going to learn what works and what dosnt. Youll make mistakes and mess things up, all DMs do it(even the experienced ones). But youll learn and adjust as time goes on. So all I can say is dive in and give it your best shot!
PS.The edit function only lasts for a short time, though how long Im not sure.
PS.The edit function only lasts for a short time, though how long Im not sure.
One hour.
News: The guy who wanted to play a Warmage says that he is considering a Duskblade instead, which would mean (thankfully) a gish to help out the party. He'll have the same HD as the other two guys, some spell-slinging power, and not be all that bad in melee. Is this news as good as I think it is?
Also: How do I edit my posts? I found it yesterday but can't seem to find it today.
Sadly this is not really the perfect answer. A Duskblade is not a Mage. He's a fighter that sort of self buffs. High level play almost requires a versatile Mage (one that can teleport and cast wall of force etc. and a Cleric (somebody has to heal the party and eliminate the poison damage and nerf the level draining etc.)
Now in some sense the AP will self correct for only having three players - they'll gain XP much faster then normal and they'll jump up levels. Keeping them alive until this kicks in is the big stumbling block. Furthermore only having three players makes them very vulnerable. If two of them are stunned by Monster X and the third has no magic to counter the stunning ability the players are substantially screwed.
News: The guy who wanted to play a Warmage says that he is considering a Duskblade instead, which would mean (thankfully) a gish to help out the party. He'll have the same HD as the other two guys, some spell-slinging power, and not be all that bad in melee. Is this news as good as I think it is?
Also: How do I edit my posts? I found it yesterday but can't seem to find it today.
Sadly this is not really the perfect answer. A Duskblade is not a Mage. He's a fighter that sort of self buffs. High level play almost requires a versatile Mage (one that can teleport and cast wall of force etc. and a Cleric (somebody has to heal the party and eliminate the poison damage and nerf the level draining etc.)
Now in some sense the AP will self correct for only having three players - they'll gain XP much faster then normal and they'll jump up levels. Keeping them alive until this kicks in is the big stumbling block. Furthermore only having three players makes them very vulnerable. If two of them are stunned by Monster X and the third has no magic to counter the stunning ability the players are substantially screwed.
So in essence, we have a almost-Fighter, a nearly-Rogue, a sort-of Caster, and a bunch of Wands and Scrolls will likely stand in as a Cleric.
Jesus, and I thought I might be able to pull this off! How the F*CK do I run this kind of party through the various meatgrinders and challenges in this AP? Mannn... I guess weakening the encounters a bit should help... Bleargh.
Ohhhh... I have an idea... is there any BASE class (not Mystic Theurge) that is somewhere between the cleric and wizard? Maybe one that gets arcane AND divine spells, but only up to 4th level of each or something... Please, does anyone know of such a class? Perhaps the Dragonfire Adept's player will agree, for the good of the party, to go this route and I'll give him a draconic feat for his trouble (he loves the dragony flavor of the class.)
Or perhaps I could explain to the players that, due to the semi-meatgrinderness of the STAP and the lack of a player, we are:
A) going to use gestalt, limited to Core classes for sake of simplicity and
B) I have a group of three recommended builds for the guys so they will cover all the player roles and won't have to worry about "F*CK the NPC cleric died" or "SH*T the wand's outa charges".
Barbarian-Fighter
Wizard or Sorcerer-Cleric
Monk-Rogue
Or perhaps
Barbarian-Cleric (d12 HD, d12 Greataxe, AND is healing everyone, NICE. Also, it means that both arcane and diving spells can be cast in the same round.)
Wizard or Sorcerer-Ranger (ranged spells and normal damage. I realize Rogue might be better than Ranger, but I don't want player 3 feeling like a 5th wheel)
Rogue-Monk or Rogue-Bard (2nd one gives some buffs and Arcane casting. Also serves as the party face.)
I much prefer the second option, although one player really hates playing casters and might not want to play the Bbn-Clr. I also prefer Route #2 because divine and arcane spells can be cast in the same round as they are not tied up with one character. Either way, this covers all the roles in the party.
Do you think these solutions work?
News: The guy who wanted to play a Warmage says that he is considering a Duskblade instead, which would mean (thankfully) a gish to help out the party. He'll have the same HD as the other two guys, some spell-slinging power, and not be all that bad in melee. Is this news as good as I think it is?
Also: How do I edit my posts? I found it yesterday but can't seem to find it today.
Sadly this is not really the perfect answer. A Duskblade is not a Mage. He's a fighter that sort of self buffs. High level play almost requires a versatile Mage (one that can teleport and cast wall of force etc. and a Cleric (somebody has to heal the party and eliminate the poison damage and nerf the level draining etc.)
Now in some sense the AP will self correct for only having three players - they'll gain XP much faster then normal and they'll jump up levels. Keeping them alive until this kicks in is the big stumbling block. Furthermore only having three players makes them very vulnerable. If two of them are stunned by Monster X and the third has no magic to counter the stunning ability the players are substantially screwed.
So in essence, we have a almost-Fighter, a nearly-Rogue, a sort-of Caster, and a bunch of Wands and Scrolls will likely stand in as a Cleric.
Jesus, and I thought I might be able to pull this off! How the F*CK do I run this kind of party through the various meatgrinders and challenges in this AP? Mannn... I guess weakening the encounters a bit should help... Bleargh.
Ohhhh... I have an idea... is there any BASE class (not Mystic Theurge) that is somewhere between the cleric and wizard? Maybe one that gets arcane AND divine spells, but only up to 4th level of each or something... Please, does anyone know of such a class? Perhaps the Dragonfire Adept's player will agree, for the good of the party, to go this route and I'll give him a draconic feat for his trouble (he loves the dragony flavor of the class.)
Mystic Thuerge is in the DMG. Yes it does cover both the cleric and the wizard rolls. Its definitly a good class if the party is short handed though the player often ends up pretty stressed. Reality is you can mostly only cast one spell at a time - a lot of the time thats a healing spell 'cause the next hit against the fighter will kill him.
Don't weaken the encounters - too much work. Strengthen the players. You get two benefits from making the players stronger. #1 they usually like it. #2 its a lot less work for you. Give them a good point buy - say 32. Give them some charged items (that way the items eventually run out if they get much stronger later in the AP) and start them off at 2nd or 3rd level (this gives them more staying power early on and yet essentially self corrects as the XP system is inherently self correcting - you get less XP if your higher level and more if your lower level when contrasted against the CR of the monsters).
Or perhaps I could explain to the players that, due to the semi-meatgrinderness of the STAP and the lack of a player, we are:
A) going to use gestalt, limited to Core classes for sake of simplicity and
B) I have a group of three recommended builds for the guys so they will cover all the player roles and won't have to worry about "F*CK the NPC cleric died" or "SH*T the wand's outa charges".
Barbarian-Fighter
Wizard or Sorcerer-Cleric
Monk-RogueOr perhaps
Barbarian-Cleric (d12 HD, d12 Greataxe, AND is healing everyone, NICE. Also, it means that both arcane and diving spells can be cast in the same round.)
Wizard or Sorcerer-Ranger (ranged spells and normal damage. I realize Rogue might be better than Ranger, but I don't want player 3 feeling like a 5th wheel)
Rogue-Monk or Rogue-Bard (2nd one gives some buffs and Arcane casting. Also serves as the party face.)I much prefer the second option, although one player really hates playing casters and might not want to play the Bbn-Clr. I also prefer Route #2 because divine and arcane spells can be cast in the same round as they are not tied up with one character. Either way, this covers all the roles in the party.
Do you think these solutions work?
This solution should work (but give them something like a 32 point buy anyway).
That said your Scout, Duskblade, Mystic Thuerge party was viable. I'd start them at 2nd level and but it'd probably work. Scouts the party rogue, Mystic Thuerge is the rather overworked caster and the Duskblade, despite initially appearing to be a mage is actually the tank. They still probably need some extra goodies if their not Gestault. Bonus scrolls and potions would fit the bill...or you could cut back a little on the goodies and give them all a higher die of HPs. Essentially instead of d6s and d8s they'd get d8s and d10s.
Oops - for some reason I read that Mystic Thuerge was your solution. I'm not really aware of a base class that gets both cleric and mage powers.
Why don't you like Mystic Thuerges?
Oops - for some reason I read that Mystic Thuerge was your solution. I'm not really aware of a base class that gets both cleric and mage powers.
Why don't you like Mystic Thuerges?
The main problem with it is that it's a prestige class. :P
As such, it's not like they can start playing one right away.I might do Gestalt and say, "OK, you need a divine caster to heal, an arcane caster to be versatile and kill things, a tank-like character to engage the nasties up close and personally, and a sneaky type to open locks, disarm traps, and act as the party's 'face'. With all that in mind,
here's one more thing: Using these optional rules, you pick two classes and add their stuff together. *I explain gestalt*, and I have some suggestions for you that will make you able to get through this."
I found a Base Class (20 levels) of the Mystic Theurge on the Internet! Hurrah. I believe this will solve my problem. The table is pretty f*cked up, but here it is:
Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Lvl BAB Save Save Save 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Special
1 +0 +0 +0 +2 3 1 - - - - - - - - Familiar, Aura
Bonus languages
2 +1 +0 +0 +3 4 2 - - - - - - - - Signature spell
3 +1 +1 +1 +3 4 3 1 - - - - - - -
4 +2 +1 +1 +4 4 4 2 - - - - - - - Turn Outsider
5 +2 +1 +1 +4 4 4 2 1 - - - - - - Signature spell
6 +3 +2 +2 +5 4 4 3 2 - - - - - -
7 +3 +2 +2 +5 4 4 4 3 - - - - - - Enspell Outsider
8 +4 +2 +2 +6 4 4 4 4 1 - - - - - Signature spell
9 +4 +3 +3 +6 5 4 4 4 2 - - - - -
10 +5 +3 +3 +7 5 4 4 4 3 1 - - - -
11 +5 +3 +3 +7 5 4 4 4 4 2 - - - - Signature spell
12 +6 +4 +4 +8 5 4 4 4 4 3 1 - - -
13 +6 +4 +4 +8 5 4 4 4 4 4 2 - - -
14 +7 +4 +4 +9 5 5 4 4 4 4 3 - - - Signature spell
Divine Augmentation
15 +7 +5 +5 +9 5 5 4 4 4 4 4 1 - -
16 +8 +5 +5 +10 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 2 - -
17 +8 +5 +5 +10 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 3 1 - Signature spell
18 +9 +6 +6 +11 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 4 2 -
19 +9 +6 +6 +11 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 4 3 1
20 +10 +6 +6 +12 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 4 4 2 Signature spell
It's readable, at least.
Here's the class info:
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the mystic theurge.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency. Mystic theurges are proficient with daggers, heavy crossbows, light crossbows, and quarterstaffs. They gain no armor or shield proficiencies from this class.
Spells. Mystic theurges can cast divine spells from the cleric's spell list and the Magic Domain list. They may also learn wizard spells from spellbooks and prepare spells they can understand. The rules for this are the same as a wizard learning and adding a spell to her spellbook, except that a mystic theurge does not start play with a spellbook and does not automatically gain wizards spells at each spell level.
A spell from the wizards spell list is considered an arcane spell when cast by a mystic theurge, and a spell from the clerics spell list is considered a divine spell. If a spell is on both spell lists, whether it is arcane or divine is determined by whether it was prepared from a spellbook or from divine meditation.
The DC of a spell cast by a mystic theurge is determined from his wisdom score, regardless of which spell list it came from.
Familiar. Mystic theurges may summon familiars. The familiar functions exactly as the familiar of a sorcerer or a wizard.
Aura. A mystic theurge worshipping a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has an aura as a cleric of the same level.
Bonus Languages. A mystic theurge may select from the following when chosing bonus languages known for having a high intelligence score: Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, and Infernal. These are in addition to the languages available due to the mystic theurge's race.
Signature Spell. At second level, a mystic theurge masters one spell so well that he can cast it spontaneously, dropping any prepared spell of equal or higher level to cast this spell without preparation. His signature spell may be from either the clerics or the wizards spell list, but it must be a spell that he knows.
At every third additional level, the mystic theurge gains an additional signature spell. Mystic theurges are not automatically able to cast Cure Light Wounds or any other cure spell, unless chosen as his signature spell.
Turn Outsider. At fourth level, a mystic theurge gains the ability to turn or rebuke outsiders of one alignment type, as clerics turns or rebukes undead. The mystic theurge must decide which alignment type his abilities apply to: good, evil, lawful or chaotic. A mystic theurge may not turn or rebuke good outsiders unless his alignment is evil, nor may he rebuke lawful outsiders if his alignment is lawful good.
A mystic theurge may attempt to turn or rebuke undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his charisma modifier. A mystic theurge with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) gains a +2 bonus on these checks.
Enspell Outsider. At 7th level, a mystic theurge may add his charisma modifier to his caster level for purposes of getting past the spell resistance of an outsider.
Divine Augmentation. Starting at 14th level, a mystic theurge gains the ability to call divine power to augment one of his spells. This may be done once per day. An augmented spell has twice the range and area of effect, and affects twice as many targets. A +4 bonus is applied to the caster level for all purposes, and the DC for any saving throw is increased by +4.
However, I would allow this character to start with a spellbook, because then they are both types of caster in one at first level.
More importantly then starting with a spell book is to make sure that the character gets a really good one sometime before they get to the Isle of Dread. Once on that island they have no opportunity to go and buy spell scrolls for a long time. Something like 5 levels and being cut off so that one cannot get any new spells for ones spell book during this entire period is pretty brutal.
News! The player of the Dragonfire Adept had a change of heart and is now going to play a Human Druid with the Shapeshifter variant from the PHB2. This means we now have a divine caster. This still leaves a lack of an Arcanist, however, but I take heart in the fact that there is now a healer AND tank. Huzzah!
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well, i've been thinking about this for some time, and a sneaky party who plays well together may be able to actually grease their way through a lot of the AP.
very few of the adventures actually REQUIRE massive strength at arms...Drevoraz in the BG, Rowyn in TiNH, and several other opportunities abound in the early adventures for diplomatic or stealthy conflict resolution.
with the shapeshifter druid you've got a serious powerhouse on hand, and if they play smart the party can pull off some surprising things.
later on, healing will be absolutely necessary, but for the earlier adventures it won't be a game breaker without a full cleric.
-t
News! The player of the Dragonfire Adept had a change of heart and is now going to play a Human Druid with the Shapeshifter variant from the PHB2. This means we now have a divine caster. This still leaves a lack of an Arcanist, however, but I take heart in the fact that there is now a healer AND tank. Huzzah!
OK I think your more or less out of the dark here. A good Arcanist is a real boon to the party but Druids are powerful and the Duskblade does have a few magical tricks. I think this might be a perfectly good party. I'd still be a bit nice to them however - at least to start. They may get really powerful a bit later when they gain some levels. Dividing the XP only 3 ways instead of 4 will see them climb levels unusually quickly and dividing the treasure only 3 ways instead of four may mean they have some sweet luchre. However they still need to survive to gain those levels.
Last night the player of the Druid came over to my house and we made his character. I told him how Point Buy worked and gave him 32 points; his stats were Str 12 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 12. He liked being able to pick his scores and that he had no penalties, only bonuses, for his shiny new TN Human Druid of Obad-Hai. For his first form he chose a black panther and plans to have lived most of his life in the... Amedio? Amedico? What's the name of the jungle near Sasserine?
Anyway, looks like he's going to have fun. Thank you all for your assistance; I plan to turn this thread into a Word document for future reference. I plan on doing a campaign journal so look for me on those boards in a few weeks. Again, thank you!
There is a podcast...
Which number of podcast is it? Thanks.
Which number of podcast is it? Thanks.
There is a podcast...
#23.
