Since I can only access Paizo's boards at work (as opposed to Gleemax and ENWorld), I'm posting this here for everyone's consideration.
Basically, I'm building a "matrix" or roles and power sources so that I can see how the classes fit into the "grand scheme of things" in D&D 4e.
Please be advised that if a class is NOT in the 2008 PHB, how I've fit them into this matrix is based purely on MY OWN PERSONAL OPINIONS as influenced by the personal opinions of others on Gleemax and ENWorld.
If there are people who disagree with what I've postulated, please by all means pipe up. That's what these boards are for! :)
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MARTIAL
Defender: Fighter
Striker: Ranger/Rogue
Leader: Warlord
Controller: ---
ARCANE
Defender: Swordmage
Striker: Warlock
Leader: Bard
Controller: Wizard
DIVINE
Defender: Paladin
Striker: ---
Leader: Cleric
Controller: ---
PRIMAL
Defender: Barbarian
Striker: Druid
Leader: Shaman
Controller: Sorcerer
PSIONIC
Defender: ---
Striker: Soulknife
Leader: ---
Controller: Psion
KI
Defender: ---
Striker: Monk
Leader: ---
Controller: ---
SHADOW
Defender: ---
Striker: Necromancer
Leader: ---
Controller: Illusionist
There's been considerable discussion in this before, so I'll report my thoughts here too :)
The Martial, Primal, and Arcane classes are exactly what the designers have confirmed already, so no guessing there.
DIVINE
Defender: Paladin
Striker: Favored Soul
Leader: Cleric
Controller: Inquisitor
My guess is that the Favored soul will fill a ranged striker role like a Warlock is, or possibly a controller role. Inquisitor is simply my guess about what a it might divine controller would be called.
PSIONIC
Defender: Soulknife
Striker: Wilder
Leader: Psychic Warrior
Controller: Psion
These guys were the four base classes given in 3rd edition, and it makes sense they would become the new base classes as well. The Psychic Warrior would be much like the Warlord is, but with a Psicic flavor, and the Soulknife would be a varient of the fighter. The wilder's previous mechanics lead me to beleive they will become the striker for the Psionic classes, just as the warlock did for arcane.
KI
Defender: Samurai
Striker: Monk / Ninja
Leader: Shugenja
Controller: (Possibly Ninja, but unlikely.)
The KI power source is basicly the Mysertious East power source, for everyone who wants to have the Orientla adventurer feel in their game.
There is no Samurai Paragon Path, so it is likely to become the base class for the Ki defender. The Ninja is likely to be a striker with a bit of controler powers, kind of like the ranger is for Martial.
It is possible that the Wu Jen will be inclucded, but it is more likely to be an Elemental class.
SHADOW
Defender: Hexblade
Striker: Necromancer
Leader: Blackguard
Controller: Illusionist
My thought is that the Hexblade will take on a more curse based feel and heightened shadow effect to fill this role, but continue to be mostly a fighter style class.
The Blackguard will not just be a anti-paladain, serving a dark god, but in fact a person who has taken the darkest parts of the Shadowfell into his very soul, seeking to destroy everything in the world, not just serve and evil god. Someoen tha even a paladain of Hextor or Bane would want to kill.
The designer in charge of creating the new Druid class posted some time a few months back to say it was "hybrid roled". No explanation was given as to what that will mean, so we may have to wait and see (speculate?)
Shaman was mentioned as another Leader roled class in the Warlord preview posted about a month back.
Finally, the designers have said not to expect every slot on the Source/Role grid to be eventually filled. A Martial Controller, for example, was listed as a class we may never actually see.
All that said though, I love discussions like this. Bring it on! :)
You are absolutely right on all points, David. Then again, what's to stop us fans from filling up those slots for ourselves? ;-)
It would be interesting what someone did to create a martial controller. Perhaps that would be an interesting concept for a swashbuckler... someone with light armor at best, tackling legions of minion rank foes with their sharp rapier and sharper wit, disorienting them with their dazzling displays of martial prowess and then laying them low in threes and fours.
I'd like to see more of people's ideas and opinions on such things, myself.
As for JSL's post:
The druid is indeed an unknown quantity at the moment and is jacking up the Primal matrix quite nicely. As David pointed out, the druid is rumored to be "hybrid."
I've braced myself on that point, as it is already a biting contention with 4e detractors that D&D now feels too much like WoW. Giving the druid a "hybrid" role only adds fuel to that fire. As many already know, the druid in WoW can be a defender, a striker, or a leader as need be, though she can't be *quite* as good as a fighter, a rogue, or a priest, respectively. (Trust me, I know, I have a 70 druid in WoW and I love playing every second of that toon.)
So, yeah, I can see 4e saying something like "If you take this wildshape path, you can make a decent defender. If you take this other wildshape path, you can make a decent striker. If you focus more on spells and rituals, you can make a decent leader. You just can't outclass a fighter, rogue, or cleric on any of these."
I chose to put the Druid in the "striker" role because I'm rigid and I can't wrap my brain around the barbarian being anything but a defender. I agree the shaman should be a leader... calling upon spirits to aid you and your party reeks of "leader" in my book. And a sorcerer could just as easily be a striker or a controller, as can druids. Ultimately, I decided druids would probably make better strikers and sorcerers would make better controllers. However, your assessment of the reverse is just as viable.
As for the necromancer, it's interesting. I was going off of the my understanding of definitions. A leader, if I understand correctly, uses his powers to aid himself and his party or hinder his enemies in combat. A striker, on the other hand, uses his powers to inflict quick-burst yet extensive damage. The question is, which does the necromancer do?
Now that I think about it, I could see an illusionist as a leader, because of that very definition. He can't heal others, but he can create shadow items to aid his party members and use perception-altering illusions to hinder his enemies. That leaves us with the question as to what a necromancer is... does he use his minions for quick-burst strikes or for area control and damage?
The world may never know...
I do like the idea of the hexblade as a defender and a shadowdancer as a striker, though, so perhaps necromancers as controllers to fill the missing slot?
As for the necromancer, it's interesting. I was going off of the my understanding of definitions. A leader, if I understand correctly, uses his powers to aid himself and his party or hinder his enemies in combat. A striker, on the other hand, uses his powers to inflict quick-burst yet extensive damage. The question is, which does the necromancer do?
[a bit snipped for space]I do like the idea of the hexblade as a defender and a shadowdancer as a striker, though, so perhaps necromancers as controllers to fill the missing slot?
Hmmm.. I hadn't really considered the idea of them making the shadowdancer into a full base class, but they just might.
With that in mind I could see:
Defender: Hexblade, a shadowy variant of the paladain and fighter, possibly with concealment powers.
Controler: Illusionist, because the controler role is about taking care of large groups, and illusion powers are often capable of keeping a whole group of enimies subdued at once.
Striker: Shadowdancer, a teleporting shadow moving death dealer.
Leader: Necromancer, capable of controling minions and healing because they control life and death. Maybe not as good at doing damage as other leaders, but the additional minions make him useful.
Druids have also been said to focus mostly on Wildshaping in 4E, so I'd expect something like a Defender/Striker, with perhaps a Defender-form and a Striker-form. Just a guess. (I agree this will only bring more cries of WoWness, but since this won't be released for another year, hopefully by then most people inclined to such derisions will have moved on and left us 4E fans in peace!)
The only reasonable Martial Controller ideas I've heard have been Alchemists, who use various concoctions to inflict status affects/close off areas of the battlefield. For those who've played Final Fantasy Tactics, kind of like the class there (what was it called precisely? Was it an Alchemist?)
I think all Leaders are going to need to be able to heal, as all Defenders will have some ability to Mark. Strikers should all have some way to gain bonus damage (see Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, and Warlock's Curse). I'm not sure what the defining ability for Controllers is, perhaps just a focus on area affect/battlefield control abilities.
I could see the Barbarian being a Defender or a Striker, but I suspect he'll end up as a Defender, just as a gut feeling.
The Power Source I'm the most interested in is the one that no one really guessed ... Elemental. What the heck types of classes will come from that? I mean, a Summoner sure, that seems reasonable. But otherwise?
Another thing to forget as we slot classes around is that some classes might return as Paragon Paths for new classes/other classes. Blackguard could be a Paragon Path for Paladins of an Evil bent, frex.
The Power Source I'm the most interested in is the one that no one really guessed ... Elemental. What the heck types of classes will come from that? I mean, a Summoner sure, that seems reasonable. But otherwise?
It is a power source that came from left field really. I figured that arcane would remain the king of elemental damage, but I guess not.
Possible classes include a summoner style class that pulls various elementals into a bttle, the Wu Jen is very likely to become an elemntal based class, probably a striker or controller.
Beyond that? The best I've been able to do is parse out likely elemental/role combinations.
Defender: Earth Warden
Striker: Air Quickling (Movement and single point damage)
Controller: Fire Blaster
Leader: Water Healer
Sorry . . . I can't see Barbarians being any role other than Striker.
The "ability to deal additional damage" equates to rage.
I can't think of any concept that would allow barbarians being defenders . . . anyone care to shed some light?
Sorry . . . I can't see Barbarians being any role other than Striker.
The "ability to deal additional damage" equates to rage.
I can't think of any concept that would allow barbarians being defenders . . . anyone care to shed some light?
Hmm interesting insight Pell. That's perhaps the best reason for Barbarians being Strikers that I've heard yet. I'd point out that Barbarians ALSO get more HP and Fort Save while Raging, so it could definitely be in a Defendery way, but your idea seems more in spirit. Still, throw some Marking in and you could have a pretty solid Defender class. Maybe a hybrid role, Defender while not raging, Striker while doing so? (Really though, I hope they keep Hybrid roles to a minimum. It's a great idea to give each class a clearly defined roll in my mind, and making hybrids seems a step back towards vague, hazy notions of what a class really DOES).
Sorry, I'm still not seeing Barbarians as Defenders. Granted, I know I can only base it on my own personal experience, but I've never known anyone to have a barbarian that wanted to do anything other than maximize damage output. that's clearly Striker country.
And I agree, they should keep the hybrid classes to a mimumum.
Sorry . . . I can't see Barbarians being any role other than Striker.
The "ability to deal additional damage" equates to rage.
I can't think of any concept that would allow barbarians being defenders . . . anyone care to shed some light?
In 3.5 I needed a class to represent Barbarians that were more like Amerindians then Norsic Berserkers. I decided to go with a class that had lots and lots of hps as its schtick. Barbarians being really tough and hard to kill is not that far of a stretch. Obvously with such a class you'd have to cut back on the offencive abilities or it will unbalance the game but its certianly conceivable to me anyway.