What if I want to carry a tower shield and a spiked heavy shield, using the spiked shield to bash? Is there any way to stack the shield bonuses?
From what I gather, I only get the tower shield's bonus. But beyond that, when you make bash attacks with a shield, the books only list it as an off-hand attack, regardless if the bashing shield is in your dominant hand.
The PC so far...
1st level Dwarf Fighter carrying a tower shield, a heavy spiked shield, and has the feats: Improved Shield Bash, Heavy Shield Specialization, and Shield Snare. (I use flaws, thus the extra feats)
From what I understand, this PC would only get the shield bonus from his tower shield, suffer a -2 on attacks due to the tower shield, only apply .5 of his STR bonus to the attacks AND suffer a further -10 pentalty to the attack due to bashes only being "off-hand." (had he Two Weapon Fighting this second attack penalty would only be -4)
Rules or not, this simply cannot be right.
Has anyone ever worked with/around this issue before?
-Kurocyn
There are some feats or is a fighting style in "The Complete Guide to Drow" either the one from Mongoose Press, Malhavoc Press, or Natural 20 Press. Natural 20 I think. I forget which, there are like 6 books with that title. It allows your AC to benefit from both shields and has the pc using the shields in loo of weapons. I don't think it has a racial prerequisite. I think there is also a feat in "Complete Warrior."
Can't say I've ever heard of those books. I was looking through the Complete Warrior before, but I don't recall there being any note of shields and this type of use. I'll check again though.
As for the tower shield being too large, that wasn't the issue. My aim if for this PC to use his "smaller" spiked shield as his weapon without such extreme penalties and gain some benifit from using two shields.
-Kurocyn
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1st level Dwarf Fighter carrying a tower shield, a heavy spiked shield, and has the feats: Improved Shield Bash, Heavy Shield Specialization, and Shield Snare. (I use flaws, thus the extra feats)From what I understand, this PC would only get the shield bonus from his tower shield, suffer a -2 on attacks due to the tower shield, only apply .5 of his STR bonus to the attacks AND suffer a further -10 pentalty to the attack due to bashes only being "off-hand." (had he Two Weapon Fighting this second attack penalty would only be -4)
Rules or not, this simply cannot be right.
Has anyone ever worked with/around this issue before?
-Kurocyn
Hi!
I think that character has the shield bonus from his tower shield on his off-hand and attack with spiked shield with full str bonus (right hand) with a -2 on attack due the tower shield.
He strikes with heavy shield (as he could strike with a long sword) and he blocks with tower shield (as he would with a long sword in the other hand too).
Isn't neccesary the feats to attack this way.
And, of course, he doesn't gains twice the shield bonus beacuse they not stacking similar to not staking the armor bonus of a chain armor and a protection brazers.
If he wants to use this feats, he must take with the tower shield, but it doesn't let attack with him per SRD rules.That I don't know (I have a lot of discussions with my players about it and never someone has answered to me) if the armor penalty of both shield should pply to his skills or only the wrost (as per armor+shield vs baggage)
Cheers!
I'm sorry, but you need to work on your sentence structure a little; I could barely read your post...
*larger quotes spoiler'd
I think that character has the shield bonus from his tower shield on his off-hand and attack with spiked shield with full str bonus (right hand) with a -2 on attack due the tower shield.
He strikes with heavy shield (as he could strike with a long sword) and he blocks with tower shield (as he would with a long sword in the other hand too).
You are correct that he uses the two shields like one would use two swords, but as per the PHB, any shield bash attack is done as though with an off-hand. This fact alone makes the PC use .5 of his STR bonus and suffer a -10 on any bash attacks, regardless of what he might be holding in his other hand or which hand he is actually using to attack with.
Isn't neccesary the feats to attack this way.
Wha? Do you mean that he doesn't need Two Weapon Fighting? Or some other feat?
Yes, he doesn't need any feats to do this, but the severity of the penalties makes this sort of PC worthless going by the PHB.
And, of course, he doesn't gains twice the shield bonus beacuse they not stacking similar to not staking the armor bonus of a chain armor and a protection brazers.
If he wants to use this feats, he must take with the tower shield, but it doesn't let attack with him per SRD rules.
I know the rules don't allow for stacking shield bonuses. That's my question. Is there a feat or rule somewhere that would allow it? Or perhaps a feat that allows one to make bash attacks that AREN'T off hand attacks?
That I don't know (I have a lot of discussions with my players about it and never someone has answered to me) if the armor penalty of both shield should pply to his skills or only the wrost (as per armor+shield vs baggage)
Were I to use the AC bonus from both shields, I would also stack the check penalties. It's the same as check penalties from both armor and shields stacking. I saw this as a given...
-Kurocyn
From what I have found from the WotC board is that the enhancement bonuses do stack from the shields, but the actual shields themselves do not stack. So you could get a +5 on each and get 14 AC from shields alone. Some how this doesn't seem right though.
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I'm sorry, but you need to work on your sentence structure a little; I could barely read your post...
I'm Sorry. I'm not very good at english language...
Isn't neccesary the feats to attack this way.Wha? Do you mean that he doesn't need Two Weapon Fighting? Or some other feat?
Yes, he doesn't need any feats to do this, but the severity of the penalties makes this sort of PC worthless going by the PHB.
Yes, that I was saying is that character doesn't need TWF feat. He attacks with a weapon (heavy shield) and blocks with another shield. It is the same thing that attacking with a long sword and gain the shield bonus of a tower shield. He has a -2 penalty to attack because the tower shield, not because he is doing a two weapong fighting.
Only if he gains an extra attack using a second weapon (a second shield to attack), is TWF needed. If the second weapon is a shield, then is a shield bash with off hand and 1/2 Str bonus to damage.A heavy shield is a weapon (martial one handed) and also an armor (shield type). You can use the shield as a normal weapon and you have full Str damage. It isn't a shield-bash, only as extra attack.
Cheers!
From what I have found from the WotC board is that the enhancement bonuses do stack from the shields, but the actual shields themselves do not stack. So you could get a +5 on each and get 14 AC from shields alone. Some how this doesn't seem right though.
I agree that is not right. If using two shields, any special abilities on those shields, you get, but the AC (whether base or enhanced) does not stack. You take the highest.
So if you had a +1 Blinding heavy spiked shield and a +1 Arrow Catching Tower Shield. You would get the benefit of the Blinding and Arrow Catching and the shield bonus to AC would be +5.
As for the question about can you use a shield as a main weapon and get your full strength bonus, the answer is yes ... no ... well maybe. It really depends on how strict the DM is being. According to the FAQ, you can.
Can a character make a shield bash attack using the shield as a primary weapon or can it be used only as an offhand weapon?
While the rules describe a shield bash as an off-hand weapon, that’s simply an assumption (that your primary hand is holding a weapon). There’s nothing stopping you from declaring your shield bash as your primary weapon. Of course, that means that any attack you make with your other hand becomes a secondary weapon.
As a bit of FYI, I am currently playing a ranger with TWF that uses a +1 Bashing Mithral Heavy Spiked Shield (2d6+1+Str damage) as his primary weapon and a kukri as his off-hand weapon, with Improved Shield Bash he keeps the AC from the shield. So I've already thought about many of these issues.
If using two shields, any special abilities on those shields, you get, but the AC (whether base or enhanced) does not stack. You take the highest.
I figured as much. Thanks for clarifying.
Can a character make a shield bash attack using the shield as a primary weapon or can it be used only as an offhand weapon?
While the rules describe a shield bash as an off-hand weapon, that’s simply an assumption (that your primary hand is holding a weapon). There’s nothing stopping you from declaring your shield bash as your primary weapon. Of course, that means that any attack you make with your other hand becomes a secondary weapon.
That makes sense. Thanks again. ^ ^
Now that I know all of this, what does everyone think a workable feat that let you stack the shield bonuses would be like?
What I have so far...
Two Shields as One
[General, Fighter]
You have learned to protect yourself better by carrying a shield in each hand.
Prerequisite: Proficiency with shields, Two Weapon Fighting, BAB +1
Benefit: If you fight defensively or take a total defense action while weilding two shields, both shield bonuses apply to your AC until the beginning of your next turn. Magical enhancements do not stack.
Is this a good starting point? I may switch out the Two Weapon Fighting, but it seemed appropriate.
-Kurocyn
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Found this a while back on the WotC boards...
It's a PrC, and I wish I could remember who came up with it (to give credit where credit is due). But he too was looking to fight with two shields...
THE ARMADILLO
Hit Die: d10.
Requirements
To qualify to become an armadillo, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Feats: Shield Proficiency, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting or Agile Shield Fighter.
Class Skills
The armadillo’s class skills (and the key ability for each) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.
The Armadillo
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Armadillo defense,
fighter training
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Exceptional shield fighter
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Shielded evasion
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Shield Ward
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Shield mastery
Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the armadillo prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An armadillo is proficient with armor and shield spikes, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (including tower shields).
Armadillo Defense (Ex): An armadillo is highly trained at defense, gaining the ability to put a second shield to good use. When fighting with a shield in each hand, an armadillo adds 1 point of shield bonus per armadillo class level from his off hand shield to the bonus granted by his primary shield. For example a 5th-level fighter/2th-level armadillo who was wielding two +1 heavy steel shields would gain 2 points of shield bonus from his off hand shield, giving him a +5 shield bonus to AC.
This class feature does not grant the armadillo the ability to stack multiple shield bonuses. He is effectively increasing the bonus from one of his shields so that he still only has one shield bonus to AC.
Fighter Training: Levels in the armadillo class are considered to be fighter levels for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites when the object of that feat is either a shield or a spiked shield. For example, a 5th-level fighter/3rd-level armadillo would qualify for the feat Greater Weapon Focus (spiked heavy shield).
Exceptional Shield Fighter (Ex): At 2nd level, when the armadillo uses a shield bash as his off hand attack during a full attack action, he may make a second attack with the shield, albiet at a –5 penalty.
Shielded Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level, the armadillo gains the benefits of evasion. This ability only functions when the armadillo is wielding at least one heavy shield.
Shield Ward: At 4th level, the armadillo gains Shield Ward as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.
Shield Mastery (Ex): At 5th level, the armadillo’s skill at fighting with two shields comes into fruition. He gains access to three special tactical maneuvers, described below.
• Cannonball: When you use the charge action while fighting with two shields, you may attack with both of your shields. If either attack hits, you deal extra damage equal to your Strength bonus (minimum +1). Add this bonus damage to the attack that yielded it before applying damage reduction. Each of these attacks suffers a –2 penalty as normal for fighting with two weapons.
• Spiked Rebuke: When you are fighting defensively and wielding at least one spiked shield, you gain the ability to respond to attacks more effectively. Determine what your AC would be without your shield bonus or your dodge bonus from fighting defensively. If an opponent’s attack hits against this lower AC but misses your actual AC, you gain a +2 bonus on attacks against that foe for 1 round.
• Armadillo’s Guard: To use this maneuver, you must be wielding two shields and using the total defense action. In any round where you do not move more than 5 feet, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to your shield bonus to AC. Additionally, you are considered to have the improved evasion ability until your next action.