Hello all. I'm preparing a new PC for an upcoming game and I though it'd be fun to make him an alchemist by trade.
So far, the PC is a Nezumi Soulknife and a pyro by nature. I've reinforced this by giving him specialized flaws from the D&D wiki. Pyromania (modified slightly) and Magical Hydrophobia.
As far as his profession, the only related feats I've found are: Grenadier, Superior Sense of Smell, and Mad Alchemist.
Are there any other fitting options/choices for an alchemist? Obvious/practical gear he should have?
-Kurocyn
As far as combat is concerned, take a look at the point blank shot feat tree, especially if you want to stay out of melee.
and if you don't mind picking up a few caster levels, you might like working yourself up to the Anointed Knight Prestige class in the Complete Divine.
I'm actually not too concerned if he's in melee or not. But Point Blank Shot would work nicely with his Throw Mind Blade ability. Good idea, but I don't know if I'll use it.
My current plan is to have him multiclass over to Pyrokineticist at level 5 (further reinfocing his pyro nature) and taking all 10 levels of it. By that point, it'd probably be best just to have him continue his Soulknife progression. But again, good ideas.
-Kurocyn
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I'm actually not too concerned if he's in melee or not. But Point Blank Shot would work nicely with his Throw Mind Blade ability. Good idea, but I don't know if I'll use it.
My current plan is to have him multiclass over to Pyrokineticist at level 5 (further reinfocing his pyro nature) and taking all 10 levels of it. By that point, it'd probably be best just to have him continue his Soulknife progression. But again, good ideas.
-Kurocyn
I would check out the ranger and druid sections of any splatbooks you have and look at their feats... many of these include doing things outdoors and knowledge:nature or survival... either of these can be used to identify plants and herbs that can be used to create alchemical stuff. If you want some fluff on this - I believe dragon magazine #82 had a AD&D article on herbs (complete with pictures) told in the form of a notebook that I found rather informative.
I would check out the ranger and druid sections of any splatbooks you have and look at their feats... many of these include doing things outdoors and knowledge:nature or survival... either of these can be used to identify plants and herbs that can be used to create alchemical stuff. If you want some fluff on this - I believe dragon magazine #82 had a AD&D article on herbs (complete with pictures) told in the form of a notebook that I found rather informative.
Good idea.
Is there anyway to access that article without the magazine itself? I only have the last 10 or so issues. Y.Y
-Kurocyn
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Here's some general advice on running the character (with the DM) that I try to include for lots of PC concepts not cookie-cutter made from the PCH:
Make a few lists of non-game alchemical "materials" and what they can do (or how they can be dangerous). Work on these 3 or 4 lists with your DM. Then give a copy to your DM at the beginning of the campaign -- he or she should add a few things to it without your knowledge (info the PC doesn't know).
Then, at various times during the campaign the DM describes what the PCs find (from his list) and the alchemist PC can check his lists -- and explain what's been found to the other PCs.
For example:
PC Druid or Ranger: a list of mushroom descriptions and properties, good and bad; a list of ferns, vines, whatever, and what special climates they thrive in, etc.
PC Wizard or Bard: a page or two of historic stuff for the campaign; the player need only reference it when something specific comes up in play but always has access to it.
PC vintner: a list of most famous to mildly famous wines and the most renound vinters.
... When the PCs enter the urban mansion, tell them what wines they find. Your PC vintner will have a ball correlating the DM's generic description of the wines with his PC's specific list.
Now, none of this stuff is game changing stuff but it does give your PCs a chance to further get into character. And really, it's much more fun for the PCs when they enter the dungeon and you say, "The corridor is filled with short, pale gray mushrooms with tiny little lavender spores" and the PC Druid rushes to his notes to see wtf that means.
Knowledge checks are no longer dumb.
-W. E. Ray
Make a few lists of non-game alchemical "materials" and what they can do (or how they can be dangerous). Work on these 3 or 4 lists with your DM. Then give a copy to your DM at the beginning of the campaign -- he or she should add a few things to it without your knowledge (info the PC doesn't know).
Then, at various times during the campaign the DM describes what the PCs find (from his list) and the alchemist PC can check his lists -- and explain what's been found to the other PCs...
-W. E. Ray
Hmm... That's pretty clever. I might have to try this. ^ ^
What would be reasonable material ideas for the PHB alchemical items? Alchemist's Fire is going to be his forte, for obvious reasons.
-Kurocyn
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I once had a gnome wizard that carried lots of oil around. I got around the 50% chance to extinguish by soaking strips of cloth in oil overnight and preparing them as fuses. Whenever I needed to go into combat, I would prestidigitate and use the firefinger to light them on fire before I threw them. Cheap alchemist fires for a cheap campaign. Hell, even if it did go out but still hit I had a fire-substituted magic missile to light them up.
I once had a gnome wizard that carried lots of oil around. I got around the 50% chance to extinguish by soaking strips of cloth in oil overnight and preparing them as fuses. Whenever I needed to go into combat, I would prestidigitate and use the firefinger to light them on fire before I threw them. Cheap alchemist fires for a cheap campaign. Hell, even if it did go out but still hit I had a fire-substituted magic missile to light them up.
More good ideas. ^ ^ Awesome!
Packing pre-staged combustables is brilliant! Lamp oil, pitch, used grease...
Keep the ideas coming everyone. ^ ^
-Kurocyn
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I was never a big fan of alchemy in D&D but last year around this time one of my players ran something similar, a gnome wizard who was really into gadgets- that was the whole character concept. It may not be too much a stretch to turn what we did into alchemy.
Anytime the PC wanted to make a gizmo we had a step by step process. Of course, he had to get the homemade Feat, Craft Gizmo, at 1st level. And with each gizmo he had to let me know what he wanted to make and we discussed how it would (might) affect game play; we also knew it had to be fair -- equal with the other PC's stuff.
Step 1 was an INT check to see if the PC could actually think of how the "moving parts" would go together. (he never had a problem with this)
Step 2 was a Craft Gizmo check to see how well it went together. (it depended on the potential strength of the item)
Step 3 was to cast Prestidigitation or GREATER PRESTIDIGITATION or some other spell if we felt it was more appropriate. The GR Presto spell was 3rd level; it was necessary for us to invent this considering the Boom-Gadgets he wanted to make and by our making it a 3rd lvl spell we knew it would be a while before he could attempt to make some of the items. Plus, he had to prepare a 3rd lvl spell that would have absolutely no use during play except to make his gizmos.
Step 4 was the wonderful WIS check that was always so much fun; if he messed it up we consulted one of two lists we made up of "unfortunate results." For these lists, in addition to our imaginations and the Paizo boards, I checked out the 2E Wizards Guide -- it has a chapter on magical diseases (ie, conjuritus), and an old issue of Dragon (I'm not goin through my old copies to find which one, sorry). All in all the two lists were pretty cool.
Step 5 was a Use Magic Device check to see if he actually could figure out how to use it. For some of the gizmos he had to make the check each time he used it.
Based on his various "check" results I would decide, for example, how many "charges" the device had or how many d4s or d6s of damage it would deal. And all of this information was held from the PC; that's how he wanted it and it was great:
The little gnome "inventor" would make some "gnome-like" device and present it to the party with a great big grin. No one ever had any idea of what that thing might do.
As DM it wasn't one of my personal favorite PC concepts but the Player had always wanted to do something like that and had never had a DM with the experience or, frankly, the ability to find a way to get it into the game. I think it worked out really well -- the player loved being able to finally run that character.
Anyway, I hope this helps.
-W. E. Ray
Blathering Blather'skite! GizmoDuck away!!!
Though an intriguing (sp?) system, Molech, I don't think it would be fitting for alchemy. This PC is going to make his living off of his work; which I wouldn't see happening if he didn't know exactly what he was making.
-Kurocyn
Please post your experience using Craft (alchemy). I've always liked the concept of the Craft skills, but felt that the mechanics were poorly devised and quickly became irrelevant; once you started getting masterwork gear off opponents at about, uhm, 1st level, Craft (weaponsmithing) lost a lot of luster. And after about 5th level, even tanglefoot bags start loosing their punch; what you can actually make with Craft (alchemy) appears to become subpar to almost any other option reasonably available, even if you can make a bajillion of them in a day or something (via a high check). Maybe it's just a misconception on my part, but it's always really bothered me considering that every other skill remains relevant throughout a character's level progression (even if rolling rarely become necessary at high levels, such as with Spellcraft and a 15th level mage, making the check itself continues to be useful to the PC).
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There was a human wizard I had that was really into making new alchemic stuff. If I could think of a way to do it, my DM would consider it. The only drawback to the normal D&D alchemy rules is that it has to be weaker than a first level spell, but with expensive and rare components I was able to make some pretty freakin cool stuff. Aslo, I disected any unusual monsters we killed and harvested some of its parts to use in alchemy.
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I'll help you play with it a little. Each time you do one of these for a PC concept it takes a little playing; there's no "magic formula" (get it? "magic formula. Hee hee).
Start by making a big list of "alchemy stuff":
copperish water
evergreen-ish water
acid water
base water
sulphur
bat guano
tree sap
methane gas
helium
gold
mercury
lead
urine
blood
Make the list as long as you can; it's just a rough draft; you'll be eliminating some items as you get further in the process. You may even categorize the list later according to cost/rarity or potential power.
Next, make a list of game afeects you'd like to see within your Alchemist's purview:
Faerie Fire
grease spell
color spray
fire ball
cloud kill
special wax to put over all the PCs belongings so they don't get wet
wax ear plugs
healing potions
universal solvent
oil of impact
eye drops that allow you to have darkvision
...or to see invisible stuff
poison
lock-burning acid
rust metal spell
And for these two lists, do some research. Go through the DMG and PCH to see what you want. Get a Chem book from the public library and get lists of all kinds of science crap.
Finally, share what you've got with your DM and work out a mechanic that lets you use this stuff -- maybe it'll be a step by step mechanic like my Player's Gnome was, maybe not. Avoid trying to make List A into a Spell Component list. That ruins the fun in my experience.
Now, be ready for your DM to be a little skeptical at first. Assure him that you're not trying to break the game, that whatever "mechanic" you develop will not allow you access to Fireball until 5th level and that you're not going to have an unlimited supply of oil of impact or Darkvision oil. Agree that the mechanic will be a work in progress during the campaign and that if it becomes too powerful or too underpowered it can be adjusted between sessions.
During play the DM can describe various alchemical items from the first list that your PC will want to get -- or want to avoid. If the PCs walk into a corridor of the dungeon filled with guano and the strong smell of methane...
Consider this, let's say you make another list of how those things in List A chemically react with each other (it will not be comprehensive). When the PCs walk into a big room in the dungeon with some monsters, and at the far end of the room is a greenish pool (your alchemist PC has to get closer to identify it) and on the south wall a kind of purple mold is growing, and then, during the fight, from a guano-filled cavernous opening, a yellow cloud pours in. Well, while the cookie-cutter PCs are dealing with the cookie-cutter monsters, your PC can make quick search or spot checks and/or knowledge: Alchemy checks and use the information accordingly: "Run away before the yellow fog hits the green pool!!" or "On my turn in initiative I'm gonna coat handfuls of that purple mold with bat guano and throw it in the area of the monsters, everyone get ready to make withdrawl actions AWAY from the monsters so I can light it and create a sleeping fog."
-W. E. Ray
There was a human wizard I had that was really into making new alchemic stuff. If I could think of a way to do it, my DM would consider it. The only drawback to the normal D&D alchemy rules is that it has to be weaker than a first level spell, but with expensive and rare components I was able to make some pretty freakin cool stuff. Aslo, I disected any unusual monsters we killed and harvested some of its parts to use in alchemy.
I think it's simply rediculous that it's limited as it is.
But yes, the PC will be very familiar with craft:(taxidermy). ^ ^
-Kurocyn
Please post your experience using Craft (alchemy). I've always liked the concept of the Craft skills, but felt that the mechanics were poorly devised and quickly became irrelevant; once you started getting masterwork gear off opponents at about, uhm, 1st level, Craft (weaponsmithing) lost a lot of luster. And after about 5th level, even tanglefoot bags start loosing their punch; what you can actually make with Craft (alchemy) appears to become subpar to almost any other option reasonably available, even if you can make a bajillion of them in a day or something (via a high check). Maybe it's just a misconception on my part, but it's always really bothered me considering that every other skill remains relevant throughout a character's level progression (even if rolling rarely become necessary at high levels, such as with Spellcraft and a 15th level mage, making the check itself continues to be useful to the PC).
I completely agree.
Sadly, I actually have no experiece with the craft skill. Nobody in my group has ever actually used it. o.O;; Many of us have had PCs with the skills, but never really got around to using them. Sad really...
The single most embarrassing foot-note under alchemy is Augmented Alchemy, an EPIC feat. All it does is double the damage or duration, and yet, you still have to add +20 to the check.
That is pathetic. How much damage does a epic level wizard do with a fireball? Or how much damage does a 21st level fighter do with a sword? Why can't a alchemical genius produce a more potent effect for a flask of alchemist's fire BEFORE 21st level?!? And even then, a measly 2d6 fire damage...
Wow. That's amazing. [/sarcasm]
-Kurocyn
Because this is Dungeons & Dragons rather than Physics & Pharmacology.
Simply put, magic is much more powerful that physics in the D&D world. After all, there are spells like reverse gravity and time stop and clone that have no real-world technological counterpart outside the realm of science-fiction.
I'm sure a d20 sci-fi game would allow for a 20d6 alchemical fire-flask by imbuing it with powdered essence of dilithium, but not D&D.
Why not, though? The alchemist is a major archetypal niche in fantasy that recieves a piss-poor representation in D&D as per the RAW. The best one can do is to take Brew Potion and pretend you're an alchemist, but if you actually use the rules for alchemy itself, it sucks. I realize that magic trumps physics in D&D; hell, plots, cinemates, and general "cool factor" trump physics. As many posters can confirm, I resolutely believe that science has no place in D&D aside from the bare minimum required to make a believable world... and that's arguable.
But since when is alchemy science? IMO, alchemy has about as much to do with science as Star Wars (i.e., not much). The real issue here is game balance. Alchemy is kept subpar because the designers didn't want fighters able to effectively lob fireballs. They don't want Alchemy to replicate magic too closely or it takes away from the classes that can actually cast spells.
I don't think this needs to be the case, however. I believe there is room in the game to develop more powerful and interesting alchemical subtances and processes. Part of this can just be flavor text; think of how many castles and vaults we've all read of that have been "magically treated" for this or that purpose. This of course implies a certain availability of magic. If one wants a lower-magic world, change that to "alchemically treated" and you've created a whole different scenario. No rules even need be developed, just as they weren't developed for "magically treated."
But if one wants more than flavor text, I think there is room for growth while maintaining balance. One could borrow some ideas from World of Warcraft (gasp!) as far as item crafting goes. Institute minimum ranks (and thus level) needed to make certain items. Then you can make sure that the alchemical goods are always weaker than the magic that should be available to PCs at the same level, without becoming totally irrelevant.
For example, what about "alchemist's frost"? Upon sharp impact, a vial of alchemist frost explodes in a 5-foot burst. Every creature within the area takes 1d6 cold damage. If a creature was struck directly with the vial, they take 2d6 cold damage instead. Additionally, a rime of frost is left on the ground which replicates the effects of a grease spell. This ice lasts indefinitely so long as the temperature is at or below freezing; if the temperature is above freezing, the ice thaws in one hour.
Require something like 8 ranks to craft this item, and then no one is going to make it until 5th level, when wizards start hurling fireballs and a grease effect with some small damage is no big deal. It's still a good fall-back option, though, and more relevant than chucking an alchemist's fire.
What's to keep such a (relatively) powerful item from being abused? Price. There are already tons of magic items out there that put pretty decent spell effects in the hands of non-casters (see: necklace of fireballs, as well as any potion). Just as a 1st level adventurer isn't going to be able to simply load up on 3rd level potions (or whatever), price will keep these more powerful alchemical items in line. If the player does want to blow a lot of cash on them, let them. It's no different than resource allocation within the RAW; they're choosing to stock up on one shots instead of more durable goods, like ability boosters or magic weapons.
One could borrow further from WoW and create actual recipies for alchemical goods, which require other premade items. This deviates even further from the normal craft rules, but what if, for example, that alchemist's frost required certain crystals? Moreover, what if said crystals could be synthesized in a lab by an alchemist in addition to being found in adventures. You could then start handing out loot here and there that the alchemist could use to cover costs and add some flair to the game, or the alchemist could make them himself and then assemble the alchemist's frost from those other creations. You could even require things made through different skills, such as blacksmithing, increasing the number of steps to whatever level of complexity you like.
You've forgotten about the most important feats he will need:
Skill Focus (Alchemy)
Skill Focus (Profession, Alchemist)
You are correct, but I hadn't forgotten about them; only assumed that they were a given. I'm starting him out with Skill Focus: Alchemy and will probably give a skill focus for profession down the road.
Besides, your character is a Soulknife, not an Alchemist. Unless you're planning on having his Expert levels exceed his Soulknife levels why worry about low alchemical damage? I'd advise you focus on ways to psionically enhance his alchemical attacks if you wish, but remember that by 3rd or 4th level he will be a Soulknife who dabbles in alchemy rather than an Alchemist who adventures and dabbles in psionics.
Actually, he is closer to the later: an alchemist with Psionic powers. I'm not planning on giving him any Psionic feats or gear beyond his 5 levels of SoulKnife before he gets to Pyrokeneticist.
The PC grew up the apprentice of the local alchemist and began to develope both Psionic and magical abilities at a young age. (He has the Spell Hand feat as a bonus due to one of his flaws. This also allows him to perform alchemy in the first place because you have to be a "caster") He simply saw more potential in his Psionic developement and followed that path.
Saern,
Excellent ideas. I had thought about using WoW as a guide-line, but hadn't given it any more thought than that.
Even if there were a list of somewhat basic spells he could replicate (I'd be happy with it being mostly utility spells even), then I'd feel alchemy actually mattered somewhat. It's not his damage output that concerns me, just the limits/lack of options available.
Having a required amount of ranks in Craft (alchemy) would be the best balancing factor you could hope for. You could throw in Skill Focus (alchemy) if you wanted, but it'd just be redundant.
Thanks for the ideas everyone, keep em' coming. ^ ^
-Kurocyn