I want to start creating one of the optional villians in my campaign. I want to make some sort of draco lich or demon that's imprisioned.
Here's the problem.
I want him powerful enough for epic level PCs to have trouble with him, yet I want him contained fairly easily and neatly.
He needs to be imprisioned underground or in a seperate dimension with a seal of sorts. The seal also needs to be fairly vulnerable so that evil aligned characters (my villians) can break it open, therefore justifing the need for a seal guardian.
My co-conspiritor thought of the Imprisionment spell and putting him underground, but working through the magical rules for the actual process and the make up of the seal needs some hammering out.
Magic avaialbe includes:
true name, druidic, necromancy, psionics, and celestial.
Spell Compendium, Book of Vile Darkness, Complete (series), and Expanded Psionics.
suggestions on other methods of imprisionment are welcome!
Thanks for your time.
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Two things come to mind.
1st: Since you're talking about epic PC's just assume someone used a compel seed based epic spell to keep the villain in the area you need. Maybe some old epic NPC that the lower level villain's are looking for to raid his/her notes.
2nd: Don't ever let the rules get in the way of a great plot device. If you need a villain to be bound by ancient magic requiring certain conditions to remove it, then don't worry about the mechanics behind it. You have a plot, use it!
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For this, I would make something up, personally.
Why not just an enchanted magic circle of salt or chalk? Maybe make it not that easy to get to, but extremely easy to break the seal once they get to it since the circle just needs to be broken.
Iron flask, by definition it is used to capture demons. The seal guardian could then be on the move, to keep it safe from the forces of darkness. Also, when something is released from the flask it is forced to serve the person that released it (so long as they spoke the command word) for an hour. If it is a particularly strong demon, that hour might be all the villain needs to fulfill their dastardly deeds.
Thanks for the advice guys. Especially the support for taking an idea and running with it.
so, let's modify the question; what should I do when one of my more *ahem* stubborn players complains that "you can't do that in D&D".
Thanks for the advice guys. Especially the support for taking an idea and running with it.
so, let's modify the question; what should I do when one of my more *ahem* stubborn players complains that "you can't do that in D&D".
1) DM fiat. The DM can do whatever he wants. Since when do stubborn players get to tell the DM exactly what he can or can't do?
2) You're dealing in epic magic in your original premise. By default, epic spells can do anything. You don't need to explain what the Spellcraft DC or details of such a spell is, especially if they'll never find the research notes. Just describe what you want to see happen. Someone wants a Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcane) check? Sure. Just say "You think someone used an unknown but powerful spell of epic nature to do this".
I could use the DM's rule, but to keep the peace I would like to find a way to do what I want within the game mechanics... your words on spellcraft got me thinking...
since some epic spells need you to make a spellcraft check to cast, would I be out of line to ask for a high DC spellcraft to activate/dismantle said seal?
and what about using Knowledge Religion/Knowledge Arcana check for Ritual knowledge, as used in the Book of Vile Darkness.
And what would be a hard, yet not impossible DC marker?
I could use the DM's rule, but to keep the peace I would like to find a way to do what I want within the game mechanics... your words on spellcraft got me thinking...
since some epic spells need you to make a spellcraft check to cast, would I be out of line to ask for a high DC spellcraft to activate/dismantle said seal?and what about using Knowledge Religion/Knowledge Arcana check for Ritual knowledge, as used in the Book of Vile Darkness.
And what would be a hard, yet not impossible DC marker?
Would it be out-of-line for you to ask for a high DC spellcraft check? No, but remember that you can get absurdly high skill modifiers without much trouble in the higher levels of the game. Epic Skill Focus, a few +2/+2 feats, some magic items to boost Spellcraft that a wizard made, and you can have a +60 on your check before you know it. But you've got a good idea about the Knowledge skills and rituals. Perhaps a certain amount of ritual knowledge is necessary to even try to undo the seal (DC 40+ Knowledge check). You'll have to set the number based on the skills of your PCs.
You looked at the Imprisonment spell earlier. Also look at the binding spell from the Player's Handbook. You might modify that into an epic spell. Give it a permanent duration regardless of form, key it to be breakable by some specific means, put a guardian in place, and work from there. If your rules-loving player asks, that gives you an out: you can say it's a much more powerful form of the binding spell.
Give the villains some limited use Mordenkainen's Disjunction item; just like three uses, but enough to get through the seal. If the creature was sealed on the Material Plane rather than another, but perhaps deep under a mountain, maybe the villain has found a sphere of annihilation and it's relevant controlling item (the name of which currently escapes me). So now they can just tunnel straight through.
Maybe the foe was sealed up many thousands of years ago by elven high magic (or whatever), power now lost to the world. But after so long, the spells are fading. Maybe they had an incredibly long duration and the imprisoners planned on finding a more permanent solution later, but were prevented (death is a good way to explain this; maybe the lackeys of the BBEG were left running around and did away with the imprisoners but then couldn't free their master).
My players have always been more than happy to go along with a plot even if it seems to break the "rules" of D&D. They have traditionally operated under the assumption that, just as they are free to make their own magic and items and stuff, that NPCs can, too. Thus, there are likely to be many effects and situations encountered that aren't part of the "core" rules. In fact, they often see this as a challenge, trying to figure out what part of the "core" rules will interact with this obstacle to give a favorable result. So long as it doesn't reek of rail-roading, they've always been more than fine with it.
I suggest you have a talk with the rules lawyer, if you haven't already. Calling the DM about giving an NPC too many actions in combat or misunderstanding the workings of a spell is one thing; to say "you can't do that, it's not in the books" is going too far.
Using the rules for Epic Spells:
Spellcraft DC: 35
Seed: Ward (DC 14), change from personal to 20 ft radius area (+15 DC), change ward to hedge in affected creature (ad hoc, +2 DC), gain +10 on caster level check to defeat SR (+20 DC), permanent duration (x5 DC). Mitigating factors: 10d6 backlash (-10 DC), burn 1,000XP per caster (-10 DC), 10 minute casting time (-18 DC), four additional casters contributing 8th level spell slots (-60 DC), only holds specific named creature (ad hoc, -2 DC), only lasts while inscribed ward circle unbroken (ad hoc, -20 DC).
Using the rules for Epic Spells:
Spellcraft DC: 35
Seed: Ward (DC 14), change from personal to 20 ft radius area (+15 DC), change ward to hedge in affected creature (ad hoc, +2 DC), gain +10 on caster level check to defeat SR (+20 DC), permanent duration (x5 DC). Mitigating factors: 10d6 backlash (-10 DC), burn 1,000XP per caster (-10 DC), 10 minute casting time (-18 DC), four additional casters contributing 8th level spell slots (-60 DC), only holds specific named creature (ad hoc, -2 DC), only lasts while inscribed ward circle unbroken (ad hoc, -20 DC).
So, if I wanted to be really clever, what sort of DC knowledge religion check would be added on to the activation/deactivation of the ward using the ritual idea from the Book Of Vile Darkness?
..or if you would just like to give me a starting point, how about a difficulty gauge? (spl?)
And hey ... if I use the idea that the magic used in the original seal is a part of "ancient" magic... would that add a Know.History DC to invocking the spell?
BTW: Saern, thanks for that. Even if I don't corner the player...it's nice to know that someone thinks he might be carrying it a bit too far.
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BTW: Saern, thanks for that. Even if I don't corner the player...it's nice to know that someone thinks he might be carrying it a bit too far.
question: does said player own every single book? Every Dragon magazine? every dungeon magazine? How does he know everything ever published in any book, including 3rd party?
I agree that said player is going to far. You should be able to say that it was a magic long forgotten and leave it at that. Especially for epic games.
BTW: Saern, thanks for that. Even if I don't corner the player...it's nice to know that someone thinks he might be carrying it a bit too far.question: does said player own every single book? Every Dragon magazine? every dungeon magazine? How does he know everything ever published in any book, including 3rd party?
I agree that said player is going to far. You should be able to say that it was a magic long forgotten and leave it at that. Especially for epic games.
Heck, even if they did, why let that stand in the way of a good story?
I had a DM make stuff up with no actual rule mechanic behind it before; he simply wanted to see what we, the players, would come up with. When we developed a solution that seemed reasonable, he went with it. That's a little far in the other direction for my tastes, but I didn't know this behind-the-scenes tidbit until later. During the game itself, it was a great challenge to try understand the nature of this or that curse and figure out a way using the game rules to undo it. It turned out to be one of the most memorable parts of the campaign. I guess the moral of the story is that this player really needs to open his mind.
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All of this has to be based on how much trust the players have for you as a fair and consistent DM.
If they trust you then there isn't necesarily anything wrong with "DM fiat." If the Player/DM trust is sometimes shakey or misunderstood then you need to find something based in RAW to make a ruling.
Or, even better, let your Players know outside of Game you didn't make your decision from the RAW or a ruling from the Sage or somesuch and that you are trying somesthing to see if it works and is fun. Tell 'em about the research you've done (including the great Paizo resource) and they will accept it; in fact, they'll apreciate the fact that you're a DM who does this kind of thing to become a better DM. Finally, when the dust settles in-Game, have an outside-of-Game dialog with your Players to see what parts they liked and disliked; share your own favorite & least favorite parts. Hell, all DMs should be doing this anyway.
-W. E. Ray