I want to include both Dragonborn and Tieflings as options within Golarion (one of my players has already set his heart on playing a dragonborn). I also want to do something logical with the elf/eladrin divide, and use both of them. I'd appreciate some feedback from others who are working on/interested in this sort of thing. And if any Paizo folks see problems or opportunities here, I'd be grateful for any insight you can share with us.
DRAGONBORN OPTIONS:
1) Dragonborn come from some nation that's far away from Varisia. It could be in the far east, which goes with some of the eastern/kensai flavor they seem to have - their original homeland might also have been entirely destroyed somewhere along the way (likely 10,000 years ago, but possibly earlier). The main problem with this option is that we may not have a map of the Far East for a while, and so it may be a while before I know how problematic this choice might be, or if there are ramifications I don't know at this point to take into account.
2) Dragonborn aren't from Golarion, but from (wherever the elves went to when they departed through their gates just over 10,000 years ago). The first dragonborn came back through the gates with the elves upon their return, to help them in their battle against Treerazer.
TIEFLING OPTIONS:
1) Tieflings are from Cheliax, where noble families are making pacts that transform them into these beings.
2) Tieflings can appear unexpectedly in what seem to be true human bloodlines. It is widely understood that this only happens if some ancestor (however distant) entered into a pact with a devil. Tieflings who have children with humans are 50% likely to produce tieflings or humans; tieflings who have children with other tieflings are 100% likely to produce tieflings. Even so, since tieflings are usually not looked kindly upon, there are no "societies" of tieflings, and the majority of tieflings result from the "taint" suddenly manifesting. NOTE: This happens prior to birth, not later in life. ALSO: In this model, tieflings are becoming much more common in Cheliax, where people have been worshipping devils for a while now, and some of those people have randomly had tiefling offspring. Despite the Chelaxian origin possibility, the likelihood is that any Tiefling in Varisia probably owes his condition to a distant ancestor...
ELVES AND ELADRIN:
1) The elves that came back through the gates live in forested lands, but really, they seem to me to lean more toward the eladrin characteristics than the elven ones. So I'm tempted to say that eladrin are elves who came back through the gates, elves are the surface-dwellers who remained on Golarion after the exodus, and drow are those who remained but who took shelter in the Darklands.
2) Alternately, when the elves departed through the gates, some went to one place (the "official" version) and others went to another (the "feywild"). When the elves returned, both groups came back. They may be allies such that they live in the same areas and many non-elves don't really understand they are two divergent races now, even though they have separate cultures, or I may split them up into different areas once the books come out and we know more flavor about the differences between them.
FEEDBACK REQUEST:
So, what do people think?
DRAGONBORN OPTIONS:
2) Dragonborn aren't from Golarion, but from (wherever the elves went to when they departed through their gates just over 10,000 years ago). The first dragonborn came back through the gates with the elves upon their return, to help them in their battle against Treerazer.
Since they aren't a natural fit on Golarion (at least the hemisphere presented to us so far), I like the idea of them coming to Golarion through the old Azlanti gates myself. They could be a major race on either the Green or Red planets nearby, and only recently found/opened a gate to Golarion. To say they came back w/ the elves 10,000 years ago seems like a forced fit, unless you want to retcon a lot of history as presented in the Gazetteer.
TIEFLING OPTIONS:
1) Tieflings are from Cheliax, where noble families are making pacts that transform them into these beings.2) Tieflings can appear unexpectedly in what seem to be true human bloodlines. It is widely understood that this only happens if some ancestor (however distant) entered into a pact with a devil. Tieflings who have children with humans are 50% likely to produce tieflings or humans; tieflings who have children with other tieflings are 100% likely to produce tieflings. Even so, since tieflings are usually not looked kindly upon, there are no "societies" of tieflings, and the majority of tieflings result from the "taint" suddenly manifesting. NOTE: This happens prior to birth, not later in life. ALSO: In this model, tieflings are becoming much more common in Cheliax, where people have been worshipping devils for a while now, and some of those people have randomly had tiefling offspring. Despite the Chelaxian origin possibility, the likelihood is that any Tiefling in Varisia probably owes his condition to a distant ancestor...
Cheliax has only really been under infernal sway for about 70 years. If you put tieflings there, I would say they are not only a very recent arrival, but exist in extremely limited numbers. How about Nidal? It's been evil-tainted a lot longer than Cheliax...
ELVES AND ELADRIN:
1) The elves that came back through the gates live in forested lands, but really, they seem to me to lean more toward the eladrin characteristics than the elven ones. So I'm tempted to say that eladrin are elves who came back through the gates, elves are the surface-dwellers who remained on Golarion after the exodus, and drow are those who remained but who took shelter in the Darklands.2) Alternately, when the elves departed through the gates, some went to one place (the "official" version) and others went to another (the "feywild"). When the elves returned, both groups came back. They may be allies such that they live in the same areas and many non-elves don't really understand they are two divergent races now, even though they have separate cultures, or I may split them up into different areas once the books come out and we know more flavor about the differences between them.
Either one of these sounds doable.
I'm not going 4th edition, but I appreciate your ideas, and the Gazetteer is still very fresh in my mind...
These already exist in 3.5. Are you porting the new racial modifiers over? Or using them in their current incarnation?
These already exist in 3.5. Are you porting the new racial modifiers over? Or using them in their current incarnation?
I'm running Pathfinder in 4E, not 3.5, and they don't exist in Golarion in the 4E form. So I'm trying to figure out the best way to fit them in (culturally/fluff, not crunch).
re.Dragonborn:
Since they aren't a natural fit on Golarion (at least the hemisphere presented to us so far), I like the idea of them coming to Golarion through the old Azlanti gates myself. They could be a major race on either the Green or Red planets nearby, and only recently found/opened a gate to Golarion. To say they came back w/ the elves 10,000 years ago seems like a forced fit, unless you want to retcon a lot of history as presented in the Gazetteer.
BenS - Thanks for the input. I was actually thinking that they would have come through when the elves returned to Kyonin, which was in 2632, so a bit over 2000 years ago. Which is still a really long time, so there are some issues.
Do we have any indications if the elves still move back and forth through those gates, or if it was a one-time event? Because if there's still gate travel, it becomes easier to justify a more recent arrival of dragonborn via gates.
Also, are there supposed to be other gates? (e.g. in the ruins of Lost Azlant, as explored by one of the early Pathfinders in 4317) - because another option would be to have the dragonborn coming through gates only in the last few years (or maybe a few decades ago), as they flee some crisis on their homeworld (much as the elves fled Golarion so long ago), and then they'd be recent refugees with no expectation of having a homeland.
re.Dragonborn:
BenS - Thanks for the input. I was actually thinking that they would have come through when the elves returned to Kyonin, which was in 2632, so a bit over 2000 years ago. Which is still a really long time, so there are some issues.
Well, I guess 2000 years is an easier retcon than 10,000 years :) But again, personally, the more recent their arrival, the less uncomfortable retconning you would need to do.
Do we have any indications if the elves still move back and forth through those gates, or if it was a one-time event? Because if there's still gate travel, it becomes easier to justify a more recent arrival of dragonborn via gates.
The Kyonin entry only indicates they were ready to depart back through the Sovyrian Stone after dealing w/ Treerazor; but since humans were deep in the Age of Enthronement, they decided to stay and reclaim old holdings. As far as I know, the Sovyrian Stone is the only gate available to the elves; it's not the same as the old Azlanti gates. I thought it best that the Dragonborn emerge from the latter b/c the elves are jealously guarding the former, whereas we don't know of anything much guarding the latter. And of course Azlant is no more...
Also, are there supposed to be other gates? (e.g. in the ruins of Lost Azlant, as explored by one of the early Pathfinders in 4317) - because another option would be to have the dragonborn coming through gates only in the last few years (or maybe a few decades ago), as they flee some crisis on their homeworld (much as the elves fled Golarion so long ago), and then they'd be recent refugees with no expectation of having a homeland.
This would be where I would go w/ them. Recent arrivals. No other gates that I'm aware of, but remember the quasi-gates that are the First World rifts (e.g., Lands of the Linnorm Kings) could work in a pinch. Though that would tie the Dragonborn to the First World, which you may not want to do.
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Maybe this is a little bit to SCIFI but I post this idea anyway: The Dragonborn come from one of the other planets the Gazetteer hinted upon. This could be a planet where Dragonborn, Troglodytes and Hive Creatures -like Giant Bees- rule (there is a Plane in "Beyond countless Doorways" by Malhavoc Press that I stole this idea from).
The Atzlanti and the Dragonborn had a burgeoning trade relationship going on just as the empire sunk beneath th waves.
The Dragonborn today are the offspring of the survivers.
Their own world a ditant myth. But as a race they still have the goal to find a way back home.
Using this scenario, you do not have to worry about changing Golarion as the Dragonborn population will be quite small.
You also have a lot of adventure hooks for your Dragonborn Player. Rumors of a Gate to the "Land of Dragons" or "The Moon" will certainly interest him.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Maybe this is a little bit to SCIFI but I post this idea anyway: The Dragonborn come from one of the other planets the Gazetteer hinted upon. This could be a planet where Dragonborn, Troglodytes and Hive Creatures -like Giant Bees- rule (there is a Plane in "Beyond countless Doorways" by Malhavoc Press that I stole this idea from).
The Atzlanti and the Dragonborn had a burgeoning trade relationship going on just as the empire sunk beneath th waves.
The Dragonborn today are the offspring of the survivers.
Their own world a ditant myth. But as a race they still have the goal to find a way back home.
Using this scenario, you do not have to worry about changing Golarion as the Dragonborn population will be quite small.
You also have a lot of adventure hooks for your Dragonborn Player. Rumors of a Gate to the "Land of Dragons" or "The Moon" will certainly interest him.
I second this motion. It could also lead to some interesting complications with the dragons of Golarion "What do you mean 'Dragonborn?' Ah yes, that small band of planar refugees who just want to go home. *sniff* Please, they're no kin of mine."
I'm not touching 4e with a two square pole, but I'd be interested to see your ideas Cintra
Cintra, I had just a few other ideas for you, after having completed my 2nd readthrough of the Gazetteer.
1) There are hints in the entry on the River Kingdoms that Sevenarches are actually gates/portals, originally owned by the elves but long claimed by a human, druidic sect. If they really are portals, though, they go to the First World, which might be too fey for a Dragonborn origin story. Plus there's still the retcon potential problem.
2) A way to avoid the retcon problem of Avistan/Garund is to place them off-map. For example, in the central area of the eastern continent that holds Vudra on one end, and the Keleshite Empire (& Qadira) on the other. The central area (steppes) is supposed to be the domain of nomadic tribes, as well as bearing the infamous Pit of Gormuz (where Rovagug is still trapped, and his Spawn infrequently come from). Maybe the Dragonborn that made their way west did so as mercenaries in the Keleshite Empire; maybe even found themselves used on the attack on Taldor in 4079 AR.
3) You could go w/ the fantasy trope of a saurian race predating the current human & humanoid stock. This could play out in 1 of 2 ways:
3a) Descendants of the proto-humanoid race bound w/in the ice at the Crown of the World; possibly found in
3b) The Pellucidar-like "Hollow World" hinted at beneath the Realm of the Mammoth Lords.
Everybody, thanks for the great ideas. For the dragonborn, at the moment, I'm leading toward a combination of what's been suggested here - they're from another world and came through Azlanti gates, some recently, some a bit longer ago, with the long-ago arrivals having migrated mainly to the steppes area. I'll look back through the Gazeteer with this in mind.
I'm sticking with my ideas above for the Tieflings - that they are descended from people who made pacts with devils, and that it can crop up any number of generations later. If a person makes such a pact, he doesn't become a tiefling, but any of his yet-to-be-engendered descendents could be.
So that leaves Eladrin vs. Elves. And I'm wondering if it would be okay to do something similar with them. Let Elf/Eladrin be a choice, not a race.
- They are actually the same race, called "elves."
- At some point before or upon reaching adulthood, each elf chooses to align his soul more closely with his natural (elf), or his arcane (eladrin), inner self.
- It is possible for an elf who otherwise embraces nature to choose the arcane alignment, and vice versa (so I won't be prohibiting, for example, eladrin rangers or elf wizards).
- Thus, elf culture will express both the magical connection and the natural connection, and it will be possible to have, for example, two siblings who have chosen differently.
OKAY - I've got some issues with the language here (what should this choice/expression be called? how do I clearly distinguish between "elf" the overall race and "elf" the subrace/stat selection?) BUT does it sound reasonable, or would it be better to split elves into the two separate subraces after all, and have to figure out what to do with the "extra" one?
So that leaves Eladrin vs. Elves. And I'm wondering if it would be okay to do something similar with them. Let Elf/Eladrin be a choice, not a race.
- They are actually the same race, called "elves."
- At some point before or upon reaching adulthood, each elf chooses to align his soul more closely with his natural (elf), or his arcane (eladrin), inner self.
- It is possible for an elf who otherwise embraces nature to choose the arcane alignment, and vice versa (so I won't be prohibiting, for example, eladrin rangers or elf wizards).
- Thus, elf culture will express both the magical connection and the natural connection, and it will be possible to have, for example, two siblings who have chosen differently.
This is a wildly inventive idea. I especially like how they get to choose their inner selves, and how that plays out in character class terms.
OKAY - I've got some issues with the language here (what should this choice/expression be called? how do I clearly distinguish between "elf" the overall race and "elf" the subrace/stat selection?) BUT does it sound reasonable, or would it be better to split elves into the two separate subraces after all, and have to figure out what to do with the "extra" one?
I don't have anything clever to say about this problem, I'm afraid.
Everybody, thanks for the great ideas. For the dragonborn, at the moment, I'm leading toward a combination of what's been suggested here - they're from another world and came through Azlanti gates, some recently, some a bit longer ago, with the long-ago arrivals having migrated mainly to the steppes area. I'll look back through the Gazeteer with this in mind.
I personally like the idea of the Dragonborn showing up more recently. With the timing right after the death of Aroden. I like this because I can push them as more of an alien race than a real natives to the world.
steal from Stargate, call it 'The Blending' They choose which world they will blend into.
'The Blending.' That's pretty cool. Except it makes me refer to the two options as two 'blends,' which makes them sound like coffee. Hmmm...
I'm going with "Elves" as the name of the overall race (which keeps everything consistent with the Pathfinder publications). The two options they choose between will be Eladrin, or arcane-spirit, and Sindarin, or nature-spirit. (The term 'Sindar' I have stolen quite unabashedly from Tolkein's works, where it was one of the elf subraces, although if I remember right, it was the high-elf equivalent; I think the book I looked in said that Galadriel was a Sindar. But this was the term that sounded best, so it won.)
I won't bother assigning NPC elves to be Eladrin vs. Sindar for the most part, since both variants of elves are capable of appreciating and using both nature and magic, and most non-elves really won't know the difference. So less work for me!
Director of Brand Strategy
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I think one way to handle the elf/eladrin swap is to say that one group are those that left through the gate and then returned (probably the more pure Eladrins) and that the rest of the elves stayed on Golarion, and just didn't get Drowized like those that went below the surface. This makes the Eladrin more of a high elf with a touch of etherealness from being in their homeland moe recently, ancestrally speaking of course.
What about representing the normal Elves as the Eladrin, and making the 4e Elves be the Forlorn?
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I've just finished the Gazetteer so wanted to wait until then to reply.
The Timeline is very helpful here. I would base most of the divergence in continuity at Earthfall.
DRAGONBORN:
I don't like the gate option, it's too short term and you have to come up with some sort of "what was our history before we came through the gate". It would be better to match closer to the 4E setting that they are from a "lost" civilization.
Azlant would be a good location. The Dragonborn that were left were visitors/merchants and had no where to go home to, etc. They eventually fell to barbarism like everyone else.
Alternatively have the Dragonborn hail from Numeria, where most anything could be possible. Perhaps they crash landed with the ship and eventually forgot the technology and became integrated into society.
TIEFLINGS:
They shared the continent of Azlant with the Dragonborn. In fact, there could be rumor that a war between the Dragonborn and Tieflings in Azlant might be related to the Earthfall. That would explain their lack of welcome locally.
Then go with the "blood lines" suggestion regarding occasional births. Cheliax going diabolical can increase the numbers. Have the House of Thrune have some Tiefling blood lines.
ELVES AND ELADRIN:
This seems simple and others have made the suggestion already. The elves that left are Eladrin. The elves that stayed turned more wild. The elves that stayed and went below are Drow. This fits well with the arrogance of the Eladrin yet the Eladrin and Elves want to work together for common goals and against the Drow.
Pete
I have a preference to not add any "new" races in my Golarion. That being said, most of the races will port over as is, and the Gnomes in the MM can be used as PC's, they just don't get a huge writeup like the others.
Elves and Eladrin and Tieflings I believe all exist in Golarion already, so again, there's not much new here except for the origins of the Eladrin, which most of the people here already have some great ideas on.
Half-orcs appear to be the only race that will not be supported in 4e when it is released, but I heard that it will be in an online D&D insider issue....I think.
I just wish that they had included all the core classes like the barbarian, bard, druid, monk, and sorcerer in the first release, or as online additions. Converting the Pathfinder adventures to run in 4e will get a bit more difficult without some of those.