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Over the years I've considered adding another ability score or two, usually Perception and occasionally Sanity.
What I would really like to do is come up with a more systematic approach than just adding a random ability score. I'm not proposing this for Pathfinder and who knows if I'd ever actually use it. More than anything else it's a mental exercise that I'm stuck on, so I'm turning to the Paizo community for thoughts.
The idea I've been fiddling with lately is creating a set of 9 ability scores - 3 of the body, 3 of the mind, and 3 of the soul. As to what the 3 of each represent, I think the existing physical abilities have a good breakdown: Strength = power, Dexterity = speed and agility, Constitution = health. I'm happy with those. What I want to figure out is the other 6. What would mental power, mental speed/agility, and mental health be? Could there be something like that with the soul, or do those categories fall apart for soul? Is soul even a viable group of abilities?
Okay, here's one more complication. In my WAY over-complicated mind, I also figure that each ability has an conscious, intentional use (the ability score itself) and an unconscious, reflexive use (a saving throw). Right now there are only 3 saves. I'd love to figure out what the reflexive use of each ability is. Easy, huh?
So here what I've got. The ability is first and save is second; new stuff is italicized and my current favorites are bolded. PLEASE share any ideas you have and feel free to disagree with what I've put in each slot. Or critique the whole undertaking. Anyway ...
1. physical power - Strength/Hold or maybe Grip
2. physical speed/agility - Dexterity/Reflex
3. physical health - Constitution/Fortitude
4. mental power - Wisdom/Will, Will Power/Will, or Intelligence/Memory
5. mental speed/agility - Intelligence/Memory, Wisdom/Judgment, or Creativity/Insight
6. mental health - Sanity/Grip on Reality
7. soul power - Wisdom/Will, Charisma/Will, or Charisma/First Impression
8. soul speed/agility - ??
9. soul health - Belief/Faith, or maybe something about Taint or being true to your beliefs, Devotion?
Or maybe the 3rd group should be social abilities, not abilities of the soul...
10. social power - Charisma/First Impression
11. social speed/agility - Savoir-faire/Grace
12. social health - Standing/Reputation
And notice how after all that, there's still no place for Perception and that is clearly the non-ability most deserving of a promotion!
Anyway, yes it's crazy but I'd love to hear other folks ideas. After participating in the Alpha 1 and 2 discussion, I know there are some mad smart people on these boards and I'd love to tap into your creativity for a few minutes.
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As I see it, the three Physical Attributes are fine.
physical power - Strength
physical speed/agility - Dexterity
physical health - Constitution
For the Mental attributes could be:
mental power - Willpower
mental speed/agility - Prescience
mental health - Sanity
And the Soul attributes would feel like:
soul power - Faith
soul speed/agility - Instinct
soul health - Spirit
One thing you may consider, is that these could be 3 main attributes with two sub attributes each. However, such a system can become math-heavy, so it might not be worthwhile.
Stuff
I learned to RP on a homebrew system an aquaintance developed.
His attribute system consisted of 11 primary stats ranging from 2-20:
Strength
Dexterity
Agility
Size
Frame
Constitution
Willpower
Intelligence
Intuition
Charm
Luck
From those, you derived a bunch of secondary stats such as:
(Dexterity+Intelligence)/4 = Precision
(Strength+Dexterity)/4 = Coordination
(Intuition+Luck)/4 = Fortune
The secondary stats became the base for skills, attack/defense, ect.
They were, basically, your ability modifier.
It's way more math intensive than most people are willing to put up with, but it's also the ultimate simulationist system.
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How about mental speed/agility = Perception?
Isn't this about how quick you notice things, grasp things and being able to react to new situations?
That's kinda what Prescience means. Its definition fits perception, but also includes insight into what will occur. Not precognition, mind you; its more of an informed insight, or a logical reading of what current events will lead into. It basicly covers a bit more of a broad range than simply saying Perception.
StuffI learned to RP on a homebrew system an aquaintance developed.
His attribute system consisted of 11 primary stats ranging from 2-20:
I'm intrigued... Please, go on.
I'm currently wrestling with a system with a similar model, where skills and attacks are often affected by two modifiers. I've got some ideas, but they're not fully formulated yet:
The aspect of physical speed is pulled from Dexterity and replaced by Agility, which affects your movement speed, initiative, and ability to make multiple attacks; Dexterity still represents hand-eye coordination.
The aspects of Willpower and Perception are pulled from Wisdom and replaced by abilities of the same names. Wisdom represents insight and judgement; Willpower represents determination and mental endurance; Perception represents physical senses (specifically eyesight)
Skills and combat modifiers look like this:
SKILLS
Appraise = Wisdom + Intelligence
Balance = Dexterity
Bluff = Charisma
Climb = Strength + Dexterity
Concentration = Constitution + Willpower
Craft = Intelligence
Decipher Script = Intelligence + Wisdom
Diplomacy = Charisma + Reputation (if applicable)
Disable Device = Dexterity + Intelligence
Disguise = Charisma
Escape Artist = Dexterity
Forgery = Intelligence + Wisdom
Gather Information = Charisma + Wisdom
Handle Animal = Charisma
Heal = Intelligence + Wisdom
Hide = Dexterity
Intimidate = Charisma + Strength (if applicable)
Jump = Strength + Agility (if applicable)
Knowledge = Intelligence
Listen = Perception
Move Silently = Dexterity
Open Lock = Dexterity
Perform = Charisma
Search = Perception + Intelligence
Sense Motive = Perception + Wisdom
Sleight of Hand = Dexterity + Charisma (if applicable)
Spot = Perception
Survival = Wisdom
Swim = Strength + Dexterity or Agility (if applicable)
Tumble = Dexterity + Agility
Use Magic Device = Intelligence
Use Rope = Dexterity
COMBAT
Chase = Agility
AC = Agility
Melee Attack = Dexterity + Strength
Ranged Attack = Dexterity + Perception
Initiative = Agility
Will saves = Willpower
Fort saves = Constitution
Ref saves = Agility
I like where this is going. Especially with perception, a system like this would fix a few of the nagging issues, like "Why is Spot modified by Wisdom? Why is Search modified by Intelligence?" Such oddities can be explained away, but I'd much rather fix them, if for no other reason than just to tinker around. Plus, stuff like that bugs my players to no end.
If I wanted this I'd just go back to Rolemaster.
If I wanted this I'd just go back to Rolemaster.
Yeah, I guess, but I don't want a game that has a character sheet with seven pages of skills. I just want to add a little robustness to the system I'm using now.
Yeah, I guess, but I don't want a game that has a character sheet with seven pages of skills. I just want to add a little robustness to the system I'm using now.
The system I was talking about is entirely skill based. Everything you do comes down to SKILL + SECONDARY ATTRIBUTE + D20 = RESULT
For example, to roll spot you would add Acumen(Intelligence+Intuition/4) + ranks in Attentiveness(Skill) + D20 = RESULT
Even combat was a slight modification of this system. To attack, you'd roll Coordination(Strength+Dexterity/4) + ranks in appropriate weapon skill + weapon attack modifier + D30 = RESULT, then roll damage and a D30 for location.
Defense was 10 + Speed(Dexterity+Agility/4) + ranks in Combat Maneuvers + ranks in appropriate weapon skill + weapon defense modifier = DEFENSE
It was an extremely math-intensive system, but I've never seen it's equal if you want a realistic simulation. It's at the complete opposite end of the spectrum from D&D.
How does game play improve by tripling the ability scores? My mind is open, but that's the first question any rule change has to answer.
How does game play improve by tripling the ability scores? My mind is open, but that's the first question any rule change has to answer.
In my experience, a gaming system becomes more and more complex the more realistic a simulation it becomes. If your definition of "improving gameplay" includes near-perfect simulation of reality, then you'll need a more complex system.
Personally, my definition of "improving gameplay" is basically "switch to 4E D&D", because I think it'll the right balance of simulation and simplicity that I prefer. I got the impression the OP is looking for something more complex, I know of such a system, so I figured I'd chime in and tell him about it. I definitely don't use it myself, anymore, but I do recognize that it's outstanding if reality simulation is what you're looking for.
If I wanted this I'd just go back to Rolemaster.
I second that. Games have to do more than compromise between realism and playability -- they have to compromise well. I think d20 has done about as well as can be done.
BTW, Wisdom is Perception (WotC arguably should have gone ahead and renamed it with 4/e). IMO Luck and Sanity are stats that are not appropriate in most games.
My two cents :)
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I got the impression the OP is looking for something more complex, I know of such a system, so I figured I'd chime in and tell him about it.
Absolutely correct, and I appreciate your - and everyone else's - ideas.
In a lot of ways I was just proposing a bit of a thought experiment. However, I do think there could be some value in figuring out what a very complete, overly-simulationist system would look like, and then working backwards to d20 or Pathfinder or whatever to see if there are any elements of the overly-simulationist system that we would want to incorporate into a more reasonable to play system.
And now, on with the madness...
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After reading everyone's ideas (and a long solo drive), I think I've come to some intermediate conclusions.
1. physical power - Strength
2. physical speed/agility - Dexterity
3. physical health - Constitution
I agree with Cato, these are fine. They're actually the model for the others.
4. mental power - Intelligence
5. mental speed/agility - either Insight or Perception
6. mental health - Sanity
I was stuck on mental speed/agility. I knew it was the ability to do mental gymnastics, to figure things out, to be creative. I like Heimdall's suggestion of Perception because perception isn't just the physical acuity of the sense, it's also the ability to process the incoming information and figure out what it means. Cato's Prescience is right on but the name just doesn't sit right. I like Insight, though, because that seems to be an even more umbrella concept - being able to 'see' things others can't, could have to do with the sense or it could just be out-of-the-box thinking. I'm leaning towards making Insight the ability score and Perception a skill based on Insight (similar to the way Pathfinder does it).
7. soul power - Will Power
8. soul speed/agility - Empathy
9. soul health - Faith
I think Will gets promoted from a save to a full ability score. See, I think of ability scores as things you use intentionally and saves as reflexes. Will Power is something you exert so it should be an ability score (in my opinion). Faith still works for me for the health of your soul. If Will Power is the strength of your soul and Faith is it's fortitude, soul speed/agility should be the opposite, like how flexible your soul is. Openness? The ability to see other people's point of view? Empathy! A nice parallel with Insight. Empathy is like having insight into other people's souls.
10. social power - Charisma
11. social speed/agility - Savoir-faire
12. social health - Reputation
When the term 'savior-faire' popped into my mind I looked it up in the dictionary. It said 'social dexterity.' Damn, that was just too perfect. Awkward term but too right on to ignore (I know, a bit hypocritical given what I just said about Prescience ...).
This seems to me to be a list of 12 distinct characteristics that should describe any character pretty completely. But how useful are they, or, as Roguerouge asked, "How does game play improve by tripling the ability scores?"
As Tatterdemalion pointed out, Sanity is only going to come up in a certain type of game, very dark and Cthulhu-y.
I really like the idea of a Faith mechanic. A cleric would use their Faith score to determine the power of her spells. I also think characters should have to make some kind of a Faith check before benefiting from divine spells. After all, why would a god heal a non-believer? BUT, telling a player how devout his or her character wouldn't be much fun. So maybe Faith works more like alignment; a player declares how faithful his or her character is and role-plays accordingly. Maybe there is a numeric scale or certain levels of Faith with numbers that get worked into calculations. Example: Hostile = -10 on friendly healing attempts but +4 on saves versus divine magic; Agnostic = -5 on healing, +2 on saves; Indifferent = +/-0 on healing, +/-0 on saves; Faithful = +5 on healing, -2 on saves; Devout = +10 on healing checks but -4 versus divine magic.
Reputation is more like a score that will rise and fall more often than an ability score should. Beside, like Sanity, on a certain type of game is going require players keep track of their Reputations.
Empathy and Savior-faire (both speed/agility factors) are good but might be more useful as skills that players can add points to as they wish. Insight (another speed/agility factor) should probably stay an ability score; it's more fundamental and less likely to be improved through practice.
Charisma stays as the only real social ability score, and Will Power stays as the only ability score to reflect the force of your soul. Mental gets to keep two ability scores - Intelligence and Insight. And all three physical scores make the cut. In the end, D&D is a physically oriented, combat-centered game, so that is probably appropriate.
So what do we have at this point?
#1 - 7 ability scores
* Strength
* Dexterity
* Constitution
* Intelligence
* Insight
* Will Power
* Charisma
Basically the old Wisdom vs. Charisma confusion gets split into 3 distinct abilities: Insight that reflects your judgment, Will Power that reflects the your inner strength, and Charisma that reflects your personal magnetism and social skills. I think the name 'Insight' is far more accurate and descriptive of the ability than 'Wisdom,' but I know Wisdom has a long history in D&D so I could live with that. Either way, Will Power needs to be it's own separate ability score.
#2 - Measures of mental health, social standing and faith, each of which could be useful in certain campaigns.
#3 - 2 new and potentially useful skills. Savior-faire (Cha) represents social grace and the ability of characters to act appropriately in different social situations, from lower-class slums to the court of the king. Empathy (Ins/Wis) is the ability of characters to get into the heads of other people and know what they;re feeling. In a lot of ways, this is what Sense Motive should be, because you can really use it for a lot of person-reading functions. So I'd say roll Sense Motive into a new, more complete skill called Empathy. Empathy also makes a nice companion skill to Perception.
So a long road, but in the end, not so crazy. 1 new ability score, 2 old ability scores clarified, 1 new skill, 1 improved skill, 3 ways to tracks a character's "health" if they suit your campaign.
Next, saving throws...
Footnote
I realize I cheated. If Empathy is flexibility of the soul, the skill should be Empathy (Wil), not Empathy (Ins/Wis), but that doesn't make as much sense. So maybe Empathy isn't flexibility of the soul, maybe that's Luck!
In that case, Perception becomes mental agility looking at the physical world, Empathy becomes mental agility looking at the soul, and what is mental agility looking at the social world? What do you call one's ability to quickly judge a social situation? And does that deserve to become a skill like Perception and Empathy?
Endless...
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7. soul power - Will Power
8. soul speed/agility - Empathy
9. soul health - Faith
In the post immediately above I said Empathy should be a skill, but I linked it to Insight/Wisdom instead of one of the soul abilities. I've also been thinking about Faith. The more I think about it, the more Faith seems to be parallel for Strength, not health. Finally, all my other health abilities (Sanity, Reputation, HP by way of Constitution) are all points that track health. What points track the health of the soul? Taint. So here's my revised abilities-of-the-soul list:
7. soul power - Faith
8. soul speed/agility - Luck
9. soul health - Taint
So now Faith rounds out Strength, Intelligence and Charisma as power stats, and that seems right to me. Luck is the foil of Faith and represents the slipperiness of the soul. Mechanically, it would probably give some bonus to action points or allow some roll to be re-rolled. Taint measures corruption of the soul. As pointed out above, Luck and Taint aren't suited for all campaigns, and Faith might work better if players got to decide its value, more like alignment.
Revised Ability Score List
* Strength
* Dexterity
* Constitution
* Intelligence
* Insight/Wisdom
* Faith (optional)
* Charisma
But... Faith bumped Will Power. And Will Power is important. Time to look at saves...
As I've said before, saves - to me - are reflexes, as opposed to ability checks, which are conscious uses of abilities. Saves are also special because they increase with experience, as characters hone their relflexes (abilities increase too, but only a little). Right now, there are three saves - Reflex (Dex), Fortitude (Con), and Will (Wis).
As with the regular ability scores, I think the two physical saves are right on. I wouldn't change a thing about Reflex or Fortitude. I would however like to add one to Strength. What is the reflexive use of strength? You're standing there, someone walks up and tried to know something out of your hand. Can you hang on to it? I'd say 'Grip' or maybe just 'Hold.' Grip sounds better but I can also see this being used to resist things like Bull Rush or Grapple, so Hold sounds a bit more general.
Next comes Will or Will Power. I wanted it to be an ability all by itself, but that didn't work out. But it doesn't belong with Insight/Wisdom as those are a measure of judgment and perception; that has nothing to do with Will Power. The best fit with the above abilities would actually be Charisma (I've seen this advocated elsewhere). Charisma is force of personality, and it could be argued that this force is a result of how strong you're Will is, that social strength is exerting your will upon others. [Note: I totally get that in real life some charismatic people have no will power and that some willful people are uncharismatic, but that may be too fine a point to represent in game. And even with that, Will (Cha) is a better fit than Will (Ins/Wis).]
That leaves Insight/Wisdom without a save. What is the reflexive use of your insight and wisdom? Judgment. This is an interesting one. I once considered dropping Wisdom all together in favor of Perception, and only decided to keep it when I read something that someone else used it for - checks to see how much money players spent during their downtime. See, the problem with 'wisdom' is that a player can role play a character who is smarter than he is because Intelligence has specific effects - languages, skills, spells known, etc. Wisdom had spells, but not much else. How does one role play a character who has better decision making skills than you do? "I think it would be a great idea to bust into the room but my character knows better." That's one reason why I favor shifting from Wisdom to Insight; a character can certainly be more insightful than the player, especially when the DM has most of the information. A Judgment save could be used for things like seeing through illusions and could pick up some of those wisdom functions like decision making during non-game times when role playing isn't going on.
Intelligence reflex? Memory, or maybe knowledge. What would a memory save be used for? The DM would call for a memory save and then re-read some bit of information from earlier in the session or tell the player something like "you remember seeing him before, standing beside the king as he walked to dinner" - so for filling in bits of information. Potentially useful, but not very sexy. What about a Knowledge save? Right now knowledge is skill; you invest points and get more knowledgeable. It's a good system and represents learning in specific areas well. But it makes ones knowledge kind of narrow and doesn't account for crossover knowledge or knowledge outside of one's areas of expertise. If Knowledge worked like a save, the smarter and more experienced you were, the more knowledge you'd have. Specific knowledge could work two ways:
1) You could add areas of knowledge like languages, based on Int bonus. You could make a Knowledge save within the areas you'd chosen with your full save, or outside those areas with just an Int check. Or
2) Areas of knowledge could be feats that grant +5 to Knowledge saves in one area or +2 in two areas. Or both.
With this, Knowledge no longer needs to be a skill, no longer eats up skill points, and classes that need lots of knowledge - like wizards - don't need as many skill points to represent their learning. This was always dangerous because no one liked limiting a certain amount of skill points to certain skills but no one wanted wizards to ignore Knowledge and become quasi-rogues either. Knowledge saves could solve this problem.
Finally, there's Faith. Right now I'm drawing a blank on a word that means 'ability to withstand a test of faith.' Confidence? That word might even be 'Faith,' in which case the ability might be better called Belief or something. I'm not sure. This could also be a sign that Faith is a weak ability score, like Sanity and Reputation, that certainly describes an aspect of characters but is better represented by another system in the game, like the strong/moderate/weak I described a few posts back. Hmmm...
So here's where I stand:
#1.1 Six Ability Scores all with Saves
* Strength - Grip
* Dexterity - Reflex
* Constitution - Fortitude
* Intelligence - Knowledge
* Insight/Wisdom - Judgment
* Charisma - Will
#2.1 - Measures of mental health, social standing, faith, luck, and taint, each of which could be useful in certain campaigns.
#3 - 2 new skills: Savior-faire (Cha) and Empathy (Ins/Wis)
The more I work with this, the more like 3.5 it seems to get, and the more sure that the things I am changing are things that should be changed, i.e., Will save to Charisma rather than Wisdom.
Any new thoughts from others, or is everyone else bored to tears by this? :)
I'm really liking how this is turning out. Keep up the good work. ^ ^
Sadly, I think the one thing that would keep me from using a re-worked system like this is my character sheets. I really like the added depth to the ability scores and saves, but unless I had a properly laid out character sheet, neither I or my group would work with it.
-Kurocyn
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I really like the idea of a Faith mechanic. A cleric would use their Faith score to determine the power of her spells. I also think characters should have to make some kind of a Faith check before benefiting from divine spells. After all, why would a god heal a non-believer? BUT, telling a player how devout his or her character wouldn't be much fun.
Consider it like this, the Clerics have already been endowed with these spells they've prayed for at the beginning of the day, and their gods leave it to the Clerics to choose how to use them.
Also, consider the idea of Pantheons. Lets use the Norse and Greek pantheons for this example.
Odin would probably allow one of his followers to heal a follower of Thor, not necessarily because that's his son, but because they're part of the same pantheon.
However, A follower of Aphrodite may not be allowed to heal a follower of Ares; as one is the goddess of love and the other the god of war.
In a vein similar to both, a follower of Thor may be capable of aiding a follower of Apollo, as they are similarly aligned, but in different pantheons.
To me, it would all be dependent on how power-hungry you make the gods. After all, don't they gain power if they have more followers; and likewise lose power if they have fewwer?
Also, perhaps the gods would go on and let their Clerics be capable of doing such things, but doing so causes the Clerics to lose access to their divine powers untill they've gained Attonement.
Just some stray ideas.