Poison Rules - Adjusted, Clarified, and Enhanced!

[Majuba]

I like the new poison rules - they are.. scrumptious.

First - most poisons end on a successful save the first time. As much as I have *LOVED* the *idea* of the stalwart warrior, beating back the poisons, besting his enemy, only to crumple, failing at his tasks completion... I almost *never* remembered to force those 2nd saving throws.

Now, if you fail - ouch, better get cured/treated.

Potential repetition beyond one - awesome

Adjustable interval time - awesome

New format to *read* all this - awesome.

[Hammith]

I gotta agree, the new "Afflictions" part at the end of the book, along with the magic item redesigns, were easily my favorite bit so far. Now poisons are nastier, easier to use, and easier to tell if your players are ready to face them.

Love it, love it, love it.

Now to use them!

[Kirth Gersen]

And poisons and diseases have an effective SR, their "level," which makes them threats again instead of mere incoveniences. Awesome!

[Mark Moreland]

I thought the thread was on Psion rules and wondered what chapter I missed in my download!

[fliprushman]

I agree with all this. Can't wait to put this in my game. I will probably put some conversions into my game. Now if only I could get a good character sheet.

[BM]

I love the Afflictions chapter as well... I will be using more traps as a direct result.

Hammith wrote:

I gotta agree, the new "Afflictions" part at the end of the book, along with the magic item redesigns, were easily my favorite bit so far. Now poisons are nastier, easier to use, and easier to tell if your players are ready to face them.

Love it, love it, love it.

Now to use them!

Aww.... Crap. At least tell me its not going to be a poisonous monster swarm. Please? *Goes to wonder what Hammith has in mind for next game*

[seekerofshadowlight]

BM wrote:

I love the Afflictions chapter as well... I will be using more traps as a direct result.

Hammith wrote:

I gotta agree, the new "Afflictions" part at the end of the book, along with the magic item redesigns, were easily my favorite bit so far. Now poisons are nastier, easier to use, and easier to tell if your players are ready to face them.

Love it, love it, love it.

Now to use them!

Aww.... Crap. At least tell me its not going to be a poisonous monster swarm. Please? *Goes to wonder what Hammith has in mind for next game*

just dont let jac die while im gone...stupid wasps

[Archade]

I like the presentation of afflictions -- however, poisons are still clunky with a secondary save after 1 minute.

Jason, would you consider converting poisons to a 1-round frequency, with a limited effect? So if a poison is DC 15 1d4 Dex/1d4 Dex, change it to DC 14, 1 Dex every round, 3 saves breaks the effect?

[Pneumonica]

While I never liked the idea of all poisons lasting a minute with no burn time and all diseases having a one day burn time with a daily symptom cycle, that's easily house ruled.

(DM to the party who thought I was just randomly hosing them when I threw a poison at them with an hour-long burn time, a one-hour cycle, and two secondary damage hits.)

[Set]

Pneumonica wrote:

(DM to the party who thought I was just randomly hosing them when I threw a poison at them with an hour-long burn time, a one-hour cycle, and two secondary damage hits.)

Secondary damage hits should probably just keep 'hitting' until the character makes that saving throw (or is cured). But one minute intervals would be likely in only the most extreme cases. More common poisons (like rattlesnake venom) would probably have hourly intervals and the save to beat it might get easier over time (although, if it's affecting Con, that might be a losing battle anyway!).

[Pneumonica]

Set wrote:

Pneumonica wrote:

(DM to the party who thought I was just randomly hosing them when I threw a poison at them with an hour-long burn time, a one-hour cycle, and two secondary damage hits.)

Secondary damage hits should probably just keep 'hitting' until the character makes that saving throw (or is cured). But one minute intervals would be likely in only the most extreme cases. More common poisons (like rattlesnake venom) would probably have hourly intervals and the save to beat it might get easier over time (although, if it's affecting Con, that might be a losing battle anyway!).

Save DC decay might be an acceptable alternative, but I'm fine with simply limiting the number of cycles. My primary gripe is that one minute burn time. For starters, very few poisons hit maximum effect in so short a time, plus I'm just simply not a fan of "one poison much like another". It'd give some sting to poisons to have a no primary damage two-hour burn time poison that would hit for multiple cycles. It'd feel more like poison should feel - a slow onset wound that doesn't stop festering, even if no physical injury is present.

[Stephen Klauk]

Set wrote:

Secondary damage hits should probably just keep 'hitting' until the character makes that saving throw (or is cured). But one minute intervals would be likely in only the most extreme cases. More common poisons (like rattlesnake venom) would probably have hourly intervals and the save to beat it might get easier over time (although, if it's affecting Con, that might be a losing battle anyway!).

I must confess to have tuned in more times to "poison ER" than is healthy, and I agree. I think an average 10 minute/1 hour interval between saves allows poison to carry for a long time and create a more realistic onset time. Also gives PC's who survive the intitial poison damage plenty of time to negate, reduce, offset or otherwise overcome the poison.

[Pneumonica]

Actually, two supplements dealt with poison, and my favorite in terms of real-world poisons is Toxicant. It includes fungal and bacterial venoms, insect/arachnid venoms, reptile venoms, poisonous plants, etc., and has one of the most complete "poison symptom" lists imaginable (some of the entries should be hidden behind a spoiler tag rather than posted in open text). While the symptom rules could stand some cleaning up (okay, a good deal of cleaning up), the detail they present isn't actually that much work. Plus, it broke away from the "instant damage plus more damage on minute later" poison. 'Cause let's face it, while people have died from snake bites, even somebody bit by multiple snakes at virtually the same time took more than a minute to die.

[Snorter]

I instituted an onset delay for all poisons in my game, of at least one round, sometimes more. This allows careful players to interject with a spell, an antitoxin, or healing check before the vital save. And it doesn't slow down the combat; just wait till it's over, then "16 saves, please (grin)".

But then, I'm a bastard who likes using it, since I feel it adds an extra facet to combats. Losing hp is an all-or-nothing affair; fine, fine, fine, dead. Having one's performance slowly slipping away has a much greater aura of dread.

[Pneumonica]

Pneumonica wrote:

Actually, two supplements dealt with poison, and my favorite in terms of real-world poisons is Toxicant. It includes fungal and bacterial venoms, insect/arachnid venoms, reptile venoms, poisonous plants, etc., and has one of the most complete "poison symptom" lists imaginable (some of the entries should be hidden behind a spoiler tag rather than posted in open text). While the symptom rules could stand some cleaning up (okay, a good deal of cleaning up), the detail they present isn't actually that much work. Plus, it broke away from the "instant damage plus more damage on minute later" poison. 'Cause let's face it, while people have died from snake bites, even somebody bit by multiple snakes at virtually the same time took more than a minute to die.

It would be nice if I could write clearly. I was going to mention two supplements but I lost track of the second one. To be specific, it was Poisoncraft: The Dark Art, which had one of the best poison design systems I've read.

[Xaaon of Xen'Drik]

I like the new poison rules...

Would like to see a DC modifier for additional doses of the same poison. Perhaps +2 DC for each additional dose. This would work well with the longer onset time.

1 bite from a rattlesnake will not kill a healthy adult...falling into a den of baby rattlesnakes, will...

[Deussu]

I should probably compare old and new rules, since initially I didn't see much difference. I haven't read it completely though.

I'd also wish to see the prices of poisons to be decreased. For an essence that doesn't even have a high probality it works, I wouldn't make them that expensive either.

[Archade]

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

I like the new poison rules...

Would like to see a DC modifier for additional doses of the same poison. Perhaps +2 DC for each additional dose. This would work well with the longer onset time.

1 bite from a rattlesnake will not kill a healthy adult...falling into a den of baby rattlesnakes, will...

Actually, I'd love to see something like this. There have been times, when a person is exposed to multiple poison attacks, and having to make 10 Fortitude saves, regardless of the DC, is inherently dangerous, because odds are, you are going to fail at least one save ...

[Xaaon of Xen'Drik]

Archade wrote:

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

I like the new poison rules...

Would like to see a DC modifier for additional doses of the same poison. Perhaps +2 DC for each additional dose. This would work well with the longer onset time.

1 bite from a rattlesnake will not kill a healthy adult...falling into a den of baby rattlesnakes, will...

Actually, I'd love to see something like this. There have been times, when a person is exposed to multiple poison attacks, and having to make 10 Fortitude saves, regardless of the DC, is inherently dangerous, because odds are, you are going to fail at least one save ...

think how dangerous those poison dart traps that you get hit with 2-12 poison darts would become.

suddenly 10 orcs with poisoned weapons become dangerous as well...even if armed with a relatively low DC poison, those +2/dose modifiers become more and more deadly.