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Well alrighty, the newest podcast is up.
01:50: As a 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms player, what changes can I expect from the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms? Why would I “upgrade,” so to speak?
04:10: How would you balance between what’s known to the Forgotten Realms fan vs. what can be discovered by the Forgotten Realms player?
The 100 year advancement, as Bruce mentions, was described in Countdown to the Realms.
The Elven Kingdom of Myth Drannor, as Rich states, can be found in The Last Mythal trilogy.
09:20: In what ways does 4th Edition mechanics affect the make-up and complexities of the Forgotten Realms?
-Such as the dragonborn, magic, and death of Mystra.
-The kuo-toa throughout the editions:
17:30: How would you describe the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms setting as compared to the 4th Edition implied/points of light setting?
19:50: So what changes can we expect to see in the new 4th Edition Forgotten Realms?
-Such as with the Red Wizards of Thay), and Szass Tam.
23:10: In the novel line, will any discuss historical changes/perspective?
24:00: In which case, how else can DMs prepare for, or convert to, a new 4th Edition Forgotten Realms campaign?
28:50: What was the process as far as what information went into the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide?
30:00: Any parts of the Realms that you’re excited to include in your novels or games?
33:00: How much of a role did Ed Greenwood play within the 4th Edition Realms? And what can you tell us about this new “realm”?
35:20: Any last words, hints, highlights for Forgotten Realms fans?
I'll post the answers to these questions in a bit(gotta wait on the download).
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And here we go
01:50: As a 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms player, what changes can I expect from the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms? Why would I “upgrade,” so to speak?
One of the main reasons, the new realms has so much more oppurtunity to explore new corners of the realms. To be a fan of Forgotten Realms, in 3rd, you really had to be invested into it. What they're doing with the realms now is making it easier to play on a more casual basis.
"4th Ed. is being used to bring back a since of wide-eyed wonder, that since of 'Wow this is neat! I've never seen this before' or 'Boy that's something else!' - Rich Baker
They're using the new realms to get past the overly familiar sense of entitlement, and mastery. To get it back to were people are surprised by what they do.
04:10: How would you balance between what’s known to the Forgotten Realms fan vs. what can be discovered by the Forgotten Realms player?
One of the ways they did this is by advancing the timeline.
"Yes, sure this dungeon(Undermountain) thats existed below Waterdeep is still there, but whats happened in a hundred years??" - Bruce Cordell
They've gone and looked over material from 2nd and 3rd and ported some things over. There will be easter eggs for older gamers. Less detail and more unmapped detail to explore.
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still going
09:20: In what ways does 4th Edition mechanics affect the make-up and complexities of the Forgotten Realms?
-Such as the dragonborn, magic, and death of Mystra.
They've had to make sure everything they do in the realms is in the 4th ed core rules. So if a mage can cast a certain spell/day or at-wll it;s reflected in the realms book.
The death of Mystra reset the stage on how magic works.
"What happened if you were a wizard, and were used to having your spells mediated through connection to the Weave/Mytra, suddenly you were like 'Oh, I've got to learn to magic all over again, what are the new rules of the cosmology?' And for the first few years those people were really out of luck.
The Spellplague for instance, alot of wizards just hung up their staves for good. Others said 'No, I'm gonna relearn my magic", they persevered. Others said "I'm gonna take a short cut. I'm gonna make a pact with some entity and become a warlock" - Bruce Cordell
One good thing about the magic, says Rich, is that it fits in better with the fiction of the world better than the previous edition. Sometime in novel you want a wizard how can cast multiple spells(magic missle, fireball, lightning bolts, etc.) a day.
With the dragonborn they had to make sure they fit in somewhere(Seriously that's all they said, 'Since they're in 4th edition we had to fit them in'). Bruce called the Dragonborn a monkey wrench.
-The kuo-toa throughout the editions:
All monsters have a new look in 4th. Bruce goes on to say in a new 4th edition novel he's writing the kuo-toa are involved, and one of the characters, who is kuo-toa, all start out looking as they do in 3rd edition. But as the novel progesses the kua-toa become more beastial, scary looking. And he puts his explaination as to why it's happening in the book.
17:30: How would you describe the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms setting as compared to the 4th Edition implied/points of light setting?
The PoL idea does not fit entirely with the realms, and will not be "hammered in".
"Faerun is clearly a more ancient, more civilized, more connected continent than the one implied" - Rich Baker
There are some places that fit well with the PoL idea(Ex., the Bloodstone Lands, Thesk, Narfell or Impultur).
But since the realms were so connected(trade routes and portals) and so civilized, they've changed it. The roads are now more dangerous, with alot of the villages that were once having "dried up"
"Alots changed in 80 years" - Bruce Cordell
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Hey, you got Cthulhu all over my Thay!
-Such as with the Red Wizards of Thay), and Szass Tam.
Lots of changes with the Red Wizards. In the previous editions the wizards were organized by the various schools(Evoc, Abjur, Trans, etc.)of magic, but in 4th none of the schools exist. So with out the spell schools the organization of the Red Wizard no longer made any sense.
"We wanted to evolve the Red Wizards role...We wanted to put some the scary back into them" - Rich Baker
Thay in previos editions came off as having well-ordered fields, towns and trade, and didn't come off as feeling cold or scary. Except for the fact the the Red Wizards lived there.
"I've always liked the Red Wizards best as the strange, unsettling inhabitants of the Plateau of Leng" Rich Backer
Szass Tam, is now in charge. Being he was the fastest to adapt to the new way of magic.
23:10: In the novel line, will any discuss historical changes/perspective?
They don't want fill up the gap with novels or game products. There will be a few novels that act as touch stones.
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And we're done!
There will be kingdom entries that will touch on the history. Other than that there will be tools in the book to help.
Everything in the campaign book has been simplified(Any given subject(ex., Impultur) may be described in two sentences, where certain things(ex., Waterdeep) having about six pages.
28:50: What was the process as far as what information went into the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide?
Anything that didn't make it into the campaign book will be up on DDI.
30:00: Any parts of the Realms that you’re excited to include in your novels or games?
Rich is incorporating the town of Holberg into his new trilogy. And with that created the baddies of the books the Warlock Knights of Vasa.
33:00: How much of a role did Ed Greenwood play within the 4th Edition Realms? And what can you tell us about this new “realm”?
The team always wondered why it was called "The Forgotten Realms", and they found it had to with the name Aber-Toril. Ed fleashed out Aber-Toril, making a place with as much signifigance as Faerun. Aber-Toril is a continent west of Fearun. Dragonborn come from Aber-Toril.
The Dragon Empire that existed 25-30,000 years ago was overthrown in fearun, but in Aber it persisted. And influenced how the society was established and may still be
Ed in also created the 'bible' on 4th edition Waterdeep.
35:20: Any last words, hints, highlights for Forgotten Realms fans?
The Threats of Fearun chapter is filled with fifty pages of evil organizations, monsters that are specific to Faerun, and fully stated NPCs.
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Well alrighty, the newest podcast is up.
** spoiler omitted **
I'll post the answers to these questions in a bit(gotta wait on the download).
-Thanks!
18D:)
The team always wondered why it was called "The Forgotten Realms", and they found it had to with the name Aber-Toril.
Very strange why the team "always wondered", since it's been made clear (from Ed no less) many many years ago. And no, it had nothing to do with another (made-up for 4e) continent.
I see where they're going with it, but WotC's choice of phrase in this particular instance is extremely disingenuous. Whoops on their part.
So why is it the FR then? No snark, honest curiousity.
I like me some 4E and all, but I can understand why FR fans are less than enthused (although, being FR fans, you'd think they'd get used to having their world blown up by now ...)
Cheers! :)
The team always wondered why it was called "The Forgotten Realms", and they found it had to with the name Aber-Toril.Very strange why the team "always wondered", since it's been made clear (from Ed no less) many many years ago. And no, it had nothing to do with another (made-up for 4e) continent.
I see where they're going with it, but WotC's choice of phrase in this particular instance is extremely disingenuous. Whoops on their part.
Funny, because I, and all the players I play with, have always wondered why the devil it was called the Forgotten Realms when it was so clear from the books that almost ever inch of the map had been filled by somebody. I mean, they had thousands of years of recorded history and everybody still knew about them. Nothing had been forgotten.
Please remember that not everybody reads the same magazines, books, websites, or blogs. Just because you happen to knowthe trivia of Toril does not mean that it's obvious to the rest of us, and that goes for designers of a game as well the players. All it takes is one designer on the team going, "Hey, I've always wondered, why do we call it that?"
So, care to enlighten us why Ed called it "The Forgotten Realms"?
Edit: (While I included more snark then David Marks, I am still serious about wanting to know.)
I noticed the same thing as Arnwyn and rolled my eyes at the "always wondered" comment.
I can't think of where at the moment, but I had read an interview where he says the Forgotten Realms title came from OUR point of view. We here on Earth forgot about these magical lands.
But for the life of me, I don't remember where I read that.
IIRC It was mentions in a few 2e realms books where the name came from.The realms have been forgotten by the people of earth the old gates lost and sealed. Now I have not heard the pod cast I do not wish to get pissed off. But if the design team just now found out toils name it's a good clue they need a new realms design team. And all they had to do was ask ed anyhow.
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The sad thing is that despite the fau paux, these guys know the Realms, and have done a lot of work with the Realms. I still can't figure out why blowing the world up and turning it inside out was the best way to convert the Realms to 4E. Best for who? Certainly not the Realms fans that have a small library of Realms novels and sourcebooks. It just seems that everything about 4E and the Realms debacle is WotC telling us as customers what we should want instead of trying to make products that we actually want. I hope they get paid back for their arrogance tenfold.
I think wishing ill on others leads to ill coming back to oneself. Especially since these guys, as you say, know FR. They're doing what they think is best for the setting.
If you had been reading a long book series, and upon finishing it, found you really disliked the ending, would you wish ill will upon the author?
IIRC It was mentions in a few 2e realms books where the name came from.The realms have been forgotten by the people of earth the old gates lost and sealed. Now I have not heard the pod cast I do not wish to get pissed off. But if the design team just now found out toils name it's a good clue they need a new realms design team. And all they had to do was ask ed anyhow.
Dude, they did not "just now" find the full name of Aber-Toril. They just used that bit of the history of the realms that many newer players don't know about.
You guys are seriously overthinking this interview. Mr. Baker and Mr. Cordell did not forget about Toril being Aber-Toril, and there were always capable of asking Ed why it was called "Forgotten Realms" if they didn't already know.
But most of the players who are listenign to this podcast don't know. They even mentioned how most of the references to Aber got dropped somewhere between 2nd and 3rd edition wihtout much reason given. They decided to make a reason. What is wrong with creating something new based upon something from the FR past?
Nobody has even given a definitive answer to why Ed called it "Forgotten Realms" yet. There has been a half remebered reason, which so far have been based upon the idea that the Realms has been Forgotten by the real world, which is frankly a silly reason, and it makes using the term "Forgotten Realms" impossible inside the game world itself.
When the designers give these interviews, they can't just talk to Mike like they would in the office. They have to structure the podcast so that the interview makes sense to even the newest players. They often talk not just from their own point of view, but from the view of the whole design team, and in some cases from the customers perspective.
That is where all the "We always wondered why" comments come from. Maybe one of the designers asked, but they as the FR experts know the answers already (or at least have them written down somewhere).
But I don't know, and I want them to both ask and answer that question. They've given us an in game explination, just like all the other settings have, when before there was at best only a out of game reason. Greyhawk is called Greyhawk for a reason after all. The most recognizable castle in the whole setting is called Greyhawk. Now there is a similar reason for the Forgotten Realms too.
There were always reasons. They simply decided that they needed to be more "Awesome". There are hints of the name all though the realms.
1 here are lots of ancient civilizations that have fallen in the past there.Netheril, Imaskar, Cormanthyr, the old Efreeti kingdom in Calimshan,and so on.
2 In one of the old supplements, it mentions the Imaskar opening gates to Earth in order to gather slaves. Shining south IIRC they enslaved ancient Egyptians, which is why the new nation of Mulhorand suspiciously follows gods called "Set" and "Isis."
3 The 2e volo guides make mention of earth and the link there in a few times.
4 2e for the most part acted as if the game worlds were just different plans then earth this is a thyme in spelljammer source books from time to time
Thats 4 points are plenty more. Without even seeing 4e realms I can say it's badly done and very unrealms like. My only thing is the design team acts like they don't know or like the realms and thats never good for a design team to not understand what there working on. Now they might all understand the realms but every time they talk it seems like they have no clue but that might just be more bad PR. If you wish to buy it please do hope you enjoy it , but for me and many others its just names taken from the realms an added to a new world.
Whoa, you know it from not even seeing it? I need that super-power! Think of the money I would save!
Whoa, you know it from not even seeing it? I need that super-power! Think of the money I would save!
TY they have released enuff info on mad max beyond waterdeep for me to know that is not the realms I enjoy. I hope those going to the 4e"realms" enjoy it but to me and every person I know who likes the realms it dies with 3e.
I agree with Fabes here. Without seeing it there's just no way you can know it's badly done, or that it isn't the Realms.
In a similiar vein, while I'm very excited about 4E, have preordered all three books, and waste tons of time on these 4E boards and others, can't say I know the game will be great. I just think it will!
Cheers! :)
yes you can know if its not for you by just the little we have saw. Let me ask you this do you decide on watching a movie based in part on the trailers? If you say yes how can you know you will not like a movie with out seeing the whole movie?
...Without even seeing 4e realms I can say it's badly done and very unrealms like...
This is all I meant Seeker. If you had said you can say it isn't for you, I wouldn't have piped in. But I think claiming it's badly done and very unRealms-like is impossible without actually having the books.
Cheers! :)
I managed to dig up a reason via Wikipedia. Basically, its called Forgotten Realms because Toril and Earth used to be connected, but we "forgot" how to get there, or whatever. Kind of like Middle-Earth I suppose.
In a way, it might make sense, in that it would explain a lot of "real world" cultures being there (aztec-looking stuff, arabian-looking stuff, oriental-looking stuff, etc), but thats generally not how I would go about injecting that type of culture into my own campaign setting.
Anyway, I used to be really into FR back in 2nd Edition, lost interest in 3E, and now that they are giving it a sense of wonder again its got me hooked. Call me jaded, but its not anything worse than I've seen Blizzard do.
yes you can know if its not for you by just the little we have saw. Let me ask you this do you decide on watching a movie based in part on the trailers? If you say yes how can you know you will not like a movie with out seeing the whole movie?
Do trailers affect how people feel about a movie before hand? Yes.
Do the trailers ever give an accurate representaion of how good or bad the entire movie will be? No.
I'll agree that you can form an opinion based upon the previews. But you have not yet seen enough to know if the 4E Realms will be good or bad. You've seen only the trailer.
And perhaps this trailer is lying to us. Perhaps it will be like the trailers for "The Phantom Menace" looked so good to me that I went and saw it opening night. I was really looking forward to the StarWars universe getting a face lift, and I was sorely dissapointed.
The previews for the new Iron Man moive made me groan, because to me it looked like yet another Marvel superhero movie was goign to suck. I am quite happy I was wrong about that too.
Previews, trailers, and commercials are never a good indication of how good or bad the movie, game, car, or food is actually going to be.
...Without even seeing 4e realms I can say it's badly done and very unrealms like...This is all I meant Seeker. If you had said you can say it isn't for you, I wouldn't have piped in. But I think claiming it's badly done and very unRealms-like is impossible without actually having the books.
Cheers! :)
Sorry But this is way I normally stay out of the subject. It is indeed badly done. The changes to the spell system could have been done without the unrealms like spellplague. Every thing I have seen looks bad and does not go with any of the last 3 edition rules in world rules. I could have accepted changes and kinda expected a few but this is too much and does not fallow the in universe rules for the realms at all. Changes were made because people didn't understand the places of high level NPC or Dm didn't know how to tell players well in my realms the door is red not blue.
Now I will say again I hope you enjoy it I do not like it. Think of it like looking at the back cover of a book and going I don't think I'll like that book. I don't have to read a novel to know if I'll like it or not we all have are own tastes and 4e realms are not mine.
Nobody has even given a definitive answer to why Ed called it "Forgotten Realms" yet. There has been a half remebered reason, which so far have been based upon the idea that the Realms has been Forgotten by the real world, which is frankly a silly reason, and it makes using the term "Forgotten Realms" impossible inside the game world itself.
Asked and answered - multiple times in this very thread. Are you now, to use your word, "enlightened" enough?
Whether you personally consider it "silly" or not is entirely irrelevant.
You guys are seriously overthinking this interview. /snip/
Ouch! The irony.
YY U R YY U B.
I C U R YY 4 ME.
YY U R YY U B.
I C U R YY 4 ME.
Uh was that in English...this coming from a master misspeller even.
Asked and answered - multiple times in this very thread. Are you now, to use your word, "enlightened" enough?
Whether you personally consider it "silly" or not is entirely irrelevant.
It had not been answered when I started writing that reply. Only Fafhrd had replied to that question when I wrote this, though others have substantiated his memory since and I am now, indeed, enlightened on the matter.
You are right that it is irrelevant that I think it's silly. Doesn't stop that sort of real world/D&D Cross over which was so common in the early days of the game from being silly.
You guys are seriously overthinking this interview. /snip/Ouch! The irony.
It's a fair cop Gov. You've got me there.
Sorry But this is way I normally stay out of the subject. It is indeed badly done. The changes to the spell system could have been done without the unrealms like spellplague. Every thing I have seen looks bad and does not go with any of the last 3 edition rules in world rules. I could have accepted changes and kinda expected a few but this is too much and does not fallow the in universe rules for the realms at all. Changes were made because people didn't understand the places of high level NPC or Dm didn't know how to tell players well in my realms the door is red not blue.
You might think that it was badly done, but I dont, given the goals of transitioning FR to a new edition. Wizards could have just retconned the whooole thing: dragonborn were always there, wizards never ran out of spells, and wands? They never actually held charges, silly people!
They also wanted to address a very real issue with FR as it was: too much of it was mapped out and explained. That makes it very difficult to run games in a world where you are not given merely a foundation. You are given an almost complete house and told that you can place furniture wheverer, but you cannot alter the structure.
Now, a DM can make whatever changes she wants. She can actually, within her own circle of players, knock the entire house down and build it from scratch. All she has to do then is to make sure that her players know what she went and changed, which might contradict what the player knows from official sources and/or novels. They cant just read the FR RPG books, they have to read a statement from you as well to make sure that they dont make choices based on stuff thats different, or might not even exist anymore.
How extreme this gets depends on what kind of vested interest your group has in the setting. In Eberron, I got a couple guys who enjoy it and read about various things. Some have called me on mistakes that I've made concerned Dragonmarked Houses and the Dreaming Dark (not in hostility, it was something that I really did flub up on). However, many things in Eberron are NOT described in exacting detail. Sharn is mapped out kinda sorta, and Xen'drik is a DM playground. That makes it easy for any DM to tailor the setting in ways that she wants without players getting confused, or crying foul.
From what I've read, it sounds a lot like that they altered the setting in a way that avoids total retcon, but also opens the door for new, casual, or veteran gamers who wanted an open book to write in. The only thing I daresay they probably didnt need to change was the cosmology, but then I really like the new one, so its win-win for me.
Uh was that in English...this coming from a master misspeller even.YY U R YY U B.
I C U R YY 4 ME.
Huh. I'd have never figured out YY should be read as "two Ys". I'll have to consider that angle next time I try to decode one. Thanks!
Cheers! :)
You might think that it was badly done, but I dont, given the goals of transitioning FR to a new edition. Wizards could have just retconned the whooole thing: dragonborn were always there, wizards never ran out of spells, and wands? They never actually held charges, silly people!
That was simple...Mystra tried to combine the shadow weave with the weave .. The combining of the weave made drastic changes to the weave, you may have even let Mystra die and be reborn as a new magic goddess. All of that would have fit without the massive changes easy done.
As for the other If you want a little defined world you want greyhawk or Eberron the realms should be there for people that Want that rich history and detail. Rule 0 people. Be for the start of every game no matter what world I say " Ok guys we may be playing in this world however just because you know it from whatever don't expect everything to be just as you read, stories are not always true."
That was simple...Mystra tried to combine the shadow weave with the weave .. The combining of the weave made drastic changes to the weave, you may have even let Mystra die and be reborn as a new magic goddess. All of that would have fit without the massive changes easy done.
People have made a lot of hash about how Mystra is dead... but honestly do you actually expect her to stay that way? She bounces back everytime. Wouldn't that make for an awesome first campaign adventure? Being part of the rebirth of the goddess of Magic, but without the strictures of the weave? Elminster and several other chosen ones are still around, her essence isn't totally gone.
That was simple...Mystra tried to combine the shadow weave with the weave .. The combining of the weave made drastic changes to the weave, you may have even let Mystra die and be reborn as a new magic goddess. All of that would have fit without the massive changes easy done.
People have made a lot of hash about how Mystra is dead... but honestly do you actually expect her to stay that way? She bounces back everytime. Wouldn't that make for an awesome first campaign adventure? Being part of the rebirth of the goddess of Magic, but without the strictures of the weave? Elminster and several other chosen ones are still around, her essence isn't totally gone.
I don't mind her being dead just the way it was done. The realms changes over time all that is fine killing the realms and giving old realms loveer the finger was not needed. Sorry but thats how it feels to alot of us.
I don't mind her being dead just the way it was done. The realms changes over time all that is fine killing the realms and giving old realms loveer the finger was not needed. Sorry but thats how it feels to alot of us.
While i can see the side of people who don't like the changes, would you have been any happier if they just ignored the massive changes to the system? Just advanced the story a few years, reprinting everything that was old but retconning it to allow for the new classes? They would of course not be adding a new land for the Dragonorn to come from, but just saying they had Always been there.
I know exactly what the complaints would be.
"This kind of recon is unacceptable!"
"Why do I have to buy something that is 50% old information?"
At least this way, the long time break allows the old Realms to continue for those that want to stay in the old setting to stay there, and the new realms is largely unwritten but with hints of the past. The changes in magic are explained in the story, as opposed to just being retconed.
While I don't love everything about the changes, at least they made Changes instead of Retcons.
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I think wishing ill on others leads to ill coming back to oneself. Especially since these guys, as you say, know FR. They're doing what they think is best for the setting.
If you had been reading a long book series, and upon finishing it, found you really disliked the ending, would you wish ill will upon the author?
Okay, I guess I was being a little harsh. I get worked up when I think about what they are doing to the Realms. Let me put it this way. I hope that 4E FR sales are lackluster enough to make them regret their hubris. I really think that their egos have gotten out of control and something needs to happen to make them step back and realize that they are supposed to try to make products their fans want instead of trying to foist unwanted changes on them and expect us to like it because they are game designers and can do no wrong. They should respect and work with their fans, because we keep them employed by purchasing their products. Does that sound better?
Ok this will be my last post in this thread for a bit I feel as I may been well b#&%!y with a poster or two. And if I was sorry the realms is an angry issue with me. The changes were made for one resone...to get non realms people to buy it and to hell with people who loved the realms. I can not accept the badly thought out plot. That to me is what killed 4e for me eberron was left be, but even after massive outcry the realms gets killed and names from it reused for this new world.
So I am dropping this . Hope yall enjoy your New world.I will stay with the realms I have loved for 3 editions.
Okay, I guess I was being a little harsh. I get worked up when I think about what they are doing to the Realms. Let me put it this way. I hope that 4E FR sales are lackluster enough to make them regret their hubris. I really think that their egos have gotten out of control and something needs to happen to make them step back and realize that they are supposed to try to make products their fans want instead of trying to foist unwanted changes on them and expect us to like it because they are game designers and can do no wrong. They should respect and work with their fans, because we keep them employed by purchasing their products.
You mean changes unwanted by you. Judging from a few of the posters in here, I'd say there are a few people who want the changes. What you're really saying is that you hope there aren't enough people who like the changes, so the 4E Realms will be unprofitable.
It seems you're in a no-win situation. If the new Realms sells well, the designers will be vindicated. If it doesn't sell well, they're not going to just change it back. They may stop publishing Realms products. Of course, they could always license it to a third party to publish. I mean, that worked wonders for Ravenloft and Dark Sun.
When all is said and done, I think you're going to find that the 4E changes aren't as bad as they sound. The most important, most iconic, areas of the Realms will still be there. What they've done is to cut out crap like Mulhorand (Egyptian mythology shoehorned into the setting) and some things that really irked a lot of fans like the ubiquitous Chosen of Mystra. Waterdeep, Cormyr, the Dalelands, Evermeet, and Thay are still around and relatively unchanged.
Nightmare, I absolutely respect your love of the Realms; I know you wouldn't be nearly as vocal and upset if you didn't love them. But as Ed has said himself, the Forgotten Realms is a shared world. The 4E designers made some changes that are going to ruffle some feathers because the Realms were becoming too exclusive. I hope that in the future you can channel all of that passion into helping new players discover the Realms, and people like us can be their link to the Realms of the past.
Teiran:
Point of information. I have seen in either the 'grand history of the realms' or one of the DDI articles (or maybe even both sources) WotC/Hasbro specifically state that the Goddess Shar is preventing any new goddess of magic from ascending.Edit:
Longer comment removed. It can be summarised, without going into the details, as 'I am utterly bewildered by what is apparently going on'.
Yes, Shar is. So? That makes her the bad guy of the adventure to restore Mystra. Heck, this sounds more and more like an adventure (or book) that will be coming soon.
(Edited)
I don't see the designers in charge using such an idea any time soon, if I have any kind of grasp of their logic.
I suspect that if they have considered the possibility, that they will have shelved it as a possible fig-leaf for use to cover the introduction of further massive rules changes in the setting during a future edition change.
The thing is that they've done this before. In the last Realms shaking event, Waakeen the goddess of commerce (i think) went missing for a year or two, becuase she had been trapped in hell. And sure enough, they put out an adventure to explain how she got released. Mystra's extended death looks like the same kind of thing to me. Shar is suppressing her portfolio, perhaps by keeping one of her chosen trapped in a special prison or something, any thing really, and if the players defeat Shar's minions they can free Mystra's essence and cause a new goddess to arise.
In fact... let me run this idea by you. They write a 20th to 30th level adventure series, centered around defeating Shar's minions and freeing Mystra. But they write the adventure so that any female magic user can take the Demigod Epic destiny and step into the goddess's place.
Her offical name would change to Mystra, because the goddess of magic is always mystra whatever her human name was, and all the later offical books and sources can simply say that her real name has been lost, obscured by the new goddess to protect her former allies. This would allowing each gaming group to have a huge effect on the world, while not impacting anyone else's game, and I think this would be an extreamly cool adventure at the epic level of play.
They are not going to keep her dead just so that they can use her for the next edition change, which is eight to ten years away at this point. (That number is based upon the history of D&D, and the fact that a full new edition comes out ever ten years or so.) There are a million ways they could write any changes which might or might not happen in a decades time. Or they can use here as an awesome story plot in a year or two.
I'd say the later is much more likely.
Nightmare, I absolutely respect your love of the Realms; I know you wouldn't be nearly as vocal and upset if you didn't love them. But as Ed has said himself, the Forgotten Realms is a shared world. The 4E designers made some changes that are going to ruffle some feathers because the Realms were becoming too exclusive. I hope that in the future you can channel all of that passion into helping new players discover the Realms, and people like us can be their link to the Realms of the past.
I do appreciate this comment.
I did take a break from DnD during the FR Generation. I wouldn't want WOTC to disrupt a campaign that millions of people have enjoyed, solely in order to attract new fans. My understanding was that it was done in order to make all elements of the new game usuable in the campaign setting, and that's not change for the sake of change.
It's change for the sake of making the product accessible with all of the core rules, and it makes sense from a marketing standpoint. And not all marketing is evil, when you're trying to sell product so there can be more product later on.
Anyway, my real point is that I admire that people love the old campaign. But *I* have much greater incentive to check out the new Forgotten Realms now that has a new jumping off point that a new GM/Player can latch on to..
I mean I can admire that FR has been published for years now all I want, and that doesn't equate to selling me something. My admiration doesn't keep the product line going. A new start to the campaign, however, might get some of my money, and that's pretty important.
Anyway, my real point is that I admire that people love the old campaign. But *I* have much greater incentive to check out the new Forgotten Realms now that has a new jumping off point that a new GM/Player can latch on to..
I'd like to reiterate this point.
I tried Forgotten Realms briefly in 3rd Edition (after using it [loosely] as our default setting for 2nd Ed.) and didn't really like it much at all. For the duration of 3.x I didn't buy one additional FR product.
With 4th Edition, and the changes to FR, I'll be picking up the campaign book, if only to check out the new take on it. Possibly, even to draw some of the goods from the books into my Eberron campaign - something I NEVER considered during 3.x Edition.
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Anyway, my real point is that I admire that people love the old campaign. But *I* have much greater incentive to check out the new Forgotten Realms now that has a new jumping off point that a new GM/Player can latch on to..I'd like to reiterate this point.
I tried Forgotten Realms briefly in 3rd Edition (after using it [loosely] as our default setting for 2nd Ed.) and didn't really like it much at all. For the duration of 3.x I didn't buy one additional FR product.
With 4th Edition, and the changes to FR, I'll be picking up the campaign book, if only to check out the new take on it. Possibly, even to draw some of the goods from the books into my Eberron campaign - something I NEVER considered during 3.x Edition.
And to reiterate the other side of that point, I won't be. Wizards are gambling (based on their knowledge of how gamers think, but still gambling) that enough people will behave like you and Watcher to counteract the people who behave like me. I wish you luck and enjoyment in the New Realms, but they are not for me.
And to reiterate the other side of that point, I won't be. Wizards are gambling (based on their knowledge of how gamers think, but still gambling) that enough people will behave like you and Watcher to counteract the people who behave like me. I wish you luck and enjoyment in the New Realms, but they are not for me.
Right on. Just out of curiosity, are you going to try out 4th Edition despite not going with 4E FR? If so, maybe you should check out Eberron. :)
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And to reiterate the other side of that point, I won't be. Wizards are gambling (based on their knowledge of how gamers think, but still gambling) that enough people will behave like you and Watcher to counteract the people who behave like me. I wish you luck and enjoyment in the New Realms, but they are not for me.Right on. Just out of curiosity, are you going to try out 4th Edition despite not going with 4E FR? If so, maybe you should check out Eberron. :)
At the moment, I am unsure. Without playing it first, I definitely won't buy, but no one is planing to run a 4E campaign, so the 8-ball says "Looks unlikely in the near future".
Besides which, if I play 4E, they might take away my Grognard's badge.