Rogue Pg13-15

[Pete Apple]

I haven't been able to go through all of the document in very much detail until just today, so throwing out initial impressions. If this is already covered already, apologies.

My first throught on the Rogue write-up is that it's too complicated.

As a DM, this doesn't make my job easier. If I want to build a 14th level NPC rogue, I've got a number of minutes (an hour?) of time involved just in building the Rogue.

Again, just giving impression.

[SirUrza]

They've just expanded the number of unique abilities a rogue can take.. eventually they get them all, you just need to count up how many the rogue should have and give them the ability.

[Viktor_Von_Doom]

How the hell is the Rogue complicated?

[Pete Apple]

Since you asked so nicely :-) I thought I'd follow-up.

The rules seem to add a number of expanded options. And not just one set of options, but different sets that have to be taken at alternating levels. And some abilities are pre-req's for others, but interestingly some that are in one list are pre-req's for talents that are in another list. And some of them give magical abilities, which involves finding the right spell to choose to take. And one requires you to take the magical abilities as pre-reqs.

Perhaps a table with a list and the pre-reqs, like is done with feats and their pre-reqs, might assist. Or, potentially, figure out a better way to "fix" the rogue.

And, mind you, this is my own impression after trying to stat up a 14th level NPC rogue on a scratch sheet of paper in about 10 minutes. That's a really good test you can try - see how it easy it is to stat up an NPC.

In fact, please feel free to post some NPC's here and how long it took you to put together. Try to use as many of the complicated abilities as you can. And don't forget equipment and level appropriate magic items that fit within the expected wealth levels. I'm sure you'll do it in 30 or so seconds in order to show just how lame I truly am. Then your whole day will be made. :-)

-Pete

[NekoMouser]

Pete Apple wrote:

Since you asked so nicely :-) I thought I'd follow-up.

I don't know that what was asked was necessarily meant to be a question as much as an admonishment. A little silly on that posters part, but I'll try to highlight some of the reasons for that.

1. The Rogue is now missing the biggest pain involved in character creation under 3.5 rules. You no longer have to distribute skill points. That speeds everybody up a bit on character creation, but the skill heavy Rogue in particular. Never again will you have to distribute skill points on a random NPC. Unless, of course, some useless wanker convinces Paizo to change back to skill points.

2. You're assertion about the Rogues list of options on three pages seems ridiculous in comparison to the amount of space taken up by the spell lists of even one of the 3.5 spellcasting classes. And with more reason than ever before to play a specialist, there's more time to be spent digging through the spell list than ever before.

3. There's only one "option" available every even level. The fighter has one more "option" available than that. Of those Rogue options, only two have prerequisites apart from being divided into the talent and advanced talent categories. Both of those ironically concern magic use. See what I mean about the complexity of spell casting?

4. They're roughly feat equivalent and most of the rules bits are less than five sentences long. None of the abilities really seem all that complicated to me. Are we reading the same page 13-15? O L S E N? B I R D S? :P

4. Drop the scratch paper and get a character sheet. There are a number of good ones available on these forums, and they make creating anything faster.

5. Don't forget equipment and level appropriate magic items that fit within the expected wealth levels? Now it's my turn to ask a "how the hell" question. How the hell does that have any bearing on the specific speed of building a rogue?

6. I've been building a first level elven cleric off and on for the past week in preparation for a game on the 12th. There's a good bit of new material available for the cleric, and it's been a while since I played a cleric (or taken of the DM hat long enough to play much of anything). I've kind of been exploring the options. By contrast, when our two rules illiterate prats asked me to build their characters (a rogue and a fighter), I had little trouble completing the task in under half an hour. Admittedly, the character sheets helped. ^_^

I'm sure that you, not unlike myself, will get used to the rules changes and be up to speed in NPC creation in no time. It's just the newness of it that makes it seem complicated.

[Kalis]

Not specifically rogue related, but my only problem with the Pathfinder rogue(more the skill system really, but I see rogues as the prime example of it) is that the lack of actual skill points in the skill system prevents me from picking up skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.

[lastknightleft]

Kalis wrote:

Not specifically rogue related, but my only problem with the Pathfinder rogue(more the skill system really, but I see rogues as the prime example of it) is that the lack of actual skill points in the skill system prevents me from picking up skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.

You know, skill tricks are something I've been giving a lot of thought of late. I loved the idea of skill tricks until I realised that they are something you should already be able to do with a skill check as it is, just set appropriate DCs to each skill trick ability and let them go. Not very backwards compatable with that one section of one book, if nothing else you could say if you pick a trick instead of a skill (which is a pretty crappy way to do iit) you get the trick.

Honestly I think skill points will stay, and that the current method will become an NPC generator.

[DracoDruid]

I think the following Rogue Abilities should be general feats instead:

Fast Stealth, Ledge Walker, Rogue (Fast) Crawl, Stand up, and maybe Skill Mastery.

Furthermore, why can a rogue from level 1 to 9 take only combat maneuvers and level 10+ any feat?
Is there really anything more powerful then Combat Maneuvers, that they must be kept at bay until level 10?

If you make the mentioned abilities as feats and substitute the Combat Trick ability for the Feat ability, the rogue list would be clearviewable quite a bit.

... is clearviewable a word?...

[Shisumo]

I'm thinking that full sneak attack progression and a bonus feat ability that puts the fighter's to shame is probably not balanced.