Hi,
i have a general question.
I have downloaded the RotRL pdf for PC's, describing Sandpoint and the general history of Varisia. However I have not seen the modules (I'll be playing them) and the Religion section of the PC's pdf while detailed appears a bit ambiguous in regards to the demi human deities.
I wish to create a dwarven cleric orgionaly from Janderhoff, who is now living in Sandpoint.I want to take the War and Glory Domains but am unsure, are the deities mention on page 9 on the PC's dpf for *all* demi human races or is there still a place for Clandigan Silverbeard in the world of Glorian? I want to stick to core game rules here, so does anyone know what Paizo's official game line is on this issue?
Please advise
What SargonX said.
Each race does have its own little private pantheon, but these are gods who are very minor compared to the big 20. For dwarves, Torag is the obvious main choice. Dwarves also have Droskar, though, and a few others who will be revealed in the hardcover.
Thank you Mike and SargonX,
Will there be a Dwarven deity that has both War and Protection or Glory amongst its domains? This Droskar for instance?
What SargonX said.
Each race does have its own little private pantheon, but these are gods who are very minor compared to the big 20. For dwarves, Torag is the obvious main choice. Dwarves also have Droskar, though, and a few others who will be revealed in the hardcover.
Another basic question. For an aspect of realism (is that an oxymoron in a fantasy game setting?), in South Africa you have the Big 5 (game animals) (like your Big 20). However the Zulus call them X, the Xhosa call them Y, the Sotho call them Z. Is this being addressed at all?
Creative Director
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What SargonX said.
Each race does have its own little private pantheon, but these are gods who are very minor compared to the big 20. For dwarves, Torag is the obvious main choice. Dwarves also have Droskar, though, and a few others who will be revealed in the hardcover.
Thank you Mike and SargonX,
Will there be a Dwarven deity that has both War and Protection or Glory amongst its domains? This Droskar for instance?
Droskar's an evil deity; he's probably not interested in Protection OR Glory as a result, and he's not really into War either since he's a god of production and slavery or something like that.
That said, I suspect there will be a more gung-ho war god for the dwarves, yes. You can certainly use Clangedin or other WotC dwarven gods in your Golarion campaign until we have a chance to present the actual dwarven gods (and other racial gods... that probably won't happen until the Gods and Magic or the Hardcover Campaign book later this year).
What SargonX said.
Each race does have its own little private pantheon, but these are gods who are very minor compared to the big 20. For dwarves, Torag is the obvious main choice. Dwarves also have Droskar, though, and a few others who will be revealed in the hardcover.
Sorry I submitted that last post early. The races still have their own languages, in addition to the worlds languages right. So will each deity have his/her own distinct name amoung that race/region ect?
What SargonX said.
"That said, I suspect there will be a more gung-ho war god for the dwarves, yes".
James, (read in a Scottish accent) ofcourse there'll be a Dwavern deity for War!!! You'll have you gone bleeding mad to think anything otherwise. And one for Ale to, don't forget that now. Ale in the right quantities ofcourse, invariable leads to war (wether it be macro or micro).
Thats godly symbiotics, that is. Don't interfere in the ways of the gods now laddie. Do your handbook right....
Contributor
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What SargonX said.
Each race does have its own little private pantheon, but these are gods who are very minor compared to the big 20. For dwarves, Torag is the obvious main choice. Dwarves also have Droskar, though, and a few others who will be revealed in the hardcover.
Sorry I submitted that last post early. The races still have their own languages, in addition to the worlds languages right. So will each deity have his/her own distinct name amoung that race/region ect?
I think it's safe to assume that most creatures call a god by his name, even if that name doesn't fit in with their cultures' naming conventions. Of course, that said, they likely pronounce the god's name differently, since many languages make sounds differently.
Compare, for instance, the name Jesus. In English, we pronounce it "JEE zus," while in Spanish it's "hey ZOOS." Same name, different pronunciation.
I'm guessing many of the god names get similar localization. Shelyn, for example, might be pronounced "SHELL in" in some places, "sheh LINN" in others, and "SHEY lin" in still others. It just depends on the culture and language. (Incidentally, Shelyn is a Taldane goddess and in Taldor they pronounce her name "sheh LINN." Others undoubtedly pronounce it differently.)
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Creative Director
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Also... while changing deity names might provide for "more cultural realism," it's not good for game play in the same way that enforcing different coinage between nations isn't good for game play, or in renaming all of the standard OGL languages (say, from Dwarven to something like "Dvargian"). It simply creates an additional level of unnecessary complexity.
Also... while changing deity names might provide for "more cultural realism," it's not good for game play in the same way that enforcing different coinage between nations isn't good for game play, or in renaming all of the standard OGL languages (say, from Dwarven to something like "Dvargian"). It simply creates an additional level of unnecessary complexity.
I agree, to an extent. Knowing that dwarves call their own language "Dvargian" or something isn't bad fluff, but also, most races, and even dwarves in the presence of other races, call the language Dwarven.
I have always had a hard time keeping track of all of the alternate regional and racial names for the Dragonlance gods, I'll admit. Again, knowing that a race might have their own name for a given god is cool, and I wouldn't even mind that as fluff, but also, knowing that that race probably calls their god by their common name, especially when around other races, is a good thing as well.
Meh. I'm not too keen on racial deities. That implies that all the deities we've seen so far are default human deities.
I actually like the precedent set up with Desna where you have a group of peoples who worship a particular god and the invading Chelaxians just up and added her to their own pantheon. I can see Torag, fer instance, being a dwarven god that gained popularity amongst other like-minded peoples.
Hmm...maybe I can keep that assumption and just pretend that the racial deities are the ones who didn't catch on with the manfolk.
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Contributor
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Meh. I'm not too keen on racial deities. That implies that all the deities we've seen so far are default human deities.
I actually like the precedent set up with Desna where you have a group of peoples who worship a particular god and the invading Chelaxians just up and added her to their own pantheon. I can see Torag, fer instance, being a dwarven god that gained popularity amongst other like-minded peoples.
Hmm...maybe I can keep that assumption and just pretend that the racial deities are the ones who didn't catch on with the manfolk.
That's basically the assumption we're operating under, I think.
Please tell me Kurtlmak is OGL.
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Creative Director
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Meh. I'm not too keen on racial deities. That implies that all the deities we've seen so far are default human deities.
I actually like the precedent set up with Desna where you have a group of peoples who worship a particular god and the invading Chelaxians just up and added her to their own pantheon. I can see Torag, fer instance, being a dwarven god that gained popularity amongst other like-minded peoples.
Hmm...maybe I can keep that assumption and just pretend that the racial deities are the ones who didn't catch on with the manfolk.
Yup; that's pretty much the way we're going. There'll be lesser deities for each race, though, and it'll certainly be possible even for non-elves to worship elven gods, etc. But for the most part, these minor deities are just that, gods and goddesses whose worship hasn't spread far beyond their race and even among them is relatively minor.
And Kurtulmak is not open content; WotC owns him, stinger and all.
Yup; that's pretty much the way we're going.
SCORE! Respect the power of my "meh"!
I'm glad to hear that's the plan for Golarion 'cause it was my initial readings of the Pathfinder stuff that inspired the idea in me. The vibe I got wasn't so much of gods with a vested interest in the wellfare of the "mortal world" but just powerful extra-planar entities who granted power to mortals who shared their interests. I like to think religion is an invention of the mortal races rather than an a declaration from the gods.
Fer instance, Sarenrae gives healing and protective powers to priests who demonstrate a shared interest with her via their prayers to her. Meanwhile, everyone around said priest of Sarenrae says "hey, he can cure my kid" or whatever and people started following that priest. Other folk might be realizing that the tools the priest of Torag produces really helped their society and collectively begin revering the god their priest says is so important.
And remember that no matter what name they call Desna or Abadar in country X or racial homeland Y, their languages aren't English, so any naming conventions we use for these deities are just an abstraction we place on top of their names to make it easy for us, and any commonality of their names (despite different pronunciations) is also a convenience for our sake.
If you want to mess with your mind (and get a little depressed), read Tolkien's notes on the etymology of Middle-Earth names, what the Fellowship's names are in their native languages, and how he "translated" that to English so they'd have a mythic resonance to us.
Myself, I always liked the Kalamar take on deities; if you worship strife, by any name, it all goes to Strife-Lord. If you worship poisons, it goes to the Poisoner. If your god has both aspects, the worship you generate gets divided between them.
THAT said, I *especially* like what I've heard about Pathfinder deities, how each major deity has different factions each of whom treats the others as heretics. Just the idea of two paladins smiting on each other is iconic for me. (Plus I'd like to see them more on the 'extremely butthead faithful' than 'must always be lawful good', but I accept that I am in the minority here.)
Anyway, the idea that the church is a vibrant entity with different takes on the same deity appeals to me. I'd like to see all organizations to some extent or other mirror this model. The Knights of the Round Table had their competing factions, the Order of the Rose split into the Order of the White Rose and the Order of the Red Rose over a matter of succession to the British throne; I'd like to see the POTENTIAL for that manner of thing in Pathfinder organizations.
What I'd REALLY like on this (which may have to be spun off into a seperate organizations/economy/politics book is rules on how to start an influence, and how it grows, wanes, and/or is combatted. Consider:
To get a fair trial for the wizard, you must overcome the superstitions of the common farmers in the area.
You can't take down the thieve's guild; but maybe they can be persuaded to replace their guildmaster.
You can't get in to see queen Isolde - but if you spread the right rumors in the right ears, she might decide to send your group on a particular adventure, instead of the Imperial Explorers.
Only scholars can enter the Imperial Library; how do you convince enough of the library staff that your group is scholarly enough?
Your knightly order/church/guild/circle/whatever is about to split into two different factions. Neither will be anywhere near as strong as the whole, even less if it's a violent split. Can you bring the two sides to common ground before it's too late?
Honestly, I can make adventures on that stuff, especially if PCs care about their organizations as more than just some background text they write down on their character sheet. The flipside is the Leadership feat, where you don't care if red-shirt-level:4-number-two dies, you just get another 4th level NPC to fill his slot.
Dang, just combine organizations and followers - you pull a number of followers based on your organizational influence, the resources of your org, and your leadership rating. Why do you want to keep them alive? If they gain levels, your org has a more experienced person to pull upon. It also begs the question of 'Sir William - we cannot afford to part Squire Terrin from his training at this time. We hope that one among these twelve stableboys will be a sufficient replacement for your squire, whom is advancing to knighthood. The Order thanks you for your astute and diligent training, and we have the greatest confidence you can do the same again.'
Ugh. Babble, ended in far different (and broader) category than began.
Oh, and on minor racial deities, I'd like to see if one deity encompasses two 'facades', that look alike, but actually feed to the same godhead. Seems like that fits the model more than two dozen gods of different types of alchohol. I'd like to avoid the Faerun/Forgotten Realms model of godhood, if able.
Hmm, I coulda sworn I made a post to this thread yesterday. To sum up what I remember of it:
When considering alternate regional or racial names for the gods, remember that we don't even speak the same language as them, and the use of English words for riddles, etymological origins of names, and so on are all abstractions and conveniences to make the setting easier to play for we humans on Earth.
Heck, Dwarven and Elven may be much odder than human language and contain sibilants, glottal stops, and other phonetics that we simply can't hear (compare: Mandarin Chinese has incredibly fine inflections on words that are otherwise pronounced the same, like English there/they're/their except they're actually pronounced slightly differently, and non-native speakers have a very hard time interpreting these differences), and human language may have the same problems for dwarf and elf ears.
So any spelling or pronunciation differences you want to introduce in the gods' names is purely for your benefit, and doing so is probably easier on you and your players than trying to come up with actual alternate names. So if humans call Desna "DES-na" and elves call her "DESH-na" and dwarves called her "DEZ-na" it's probably easier in the long run (by causing less confusion) than having humans call her Desna, elves call her Tholarie, and dwarves call her Burtra....
If you want to see a neat (yet sometimes depressing) take on the English/otherworldlanguage issue, look up the original Middle-Earth Westron names for the LOTR characters. Sam's real name isn't really "Samwise Gamgee" ... that's a semi-translated form of his Westron name (Banazîr Galbasi), designed by Tolkien to echo certain words in English in the same way that his Westron name echoes certain Westron words.
Heh, I think this "summary" is actually longer than my original post that I lost. :p