In Burnt Offerings, Sheriff Hemlock goes to Magnimar to secure additional soldiers. What becomes of them? Is he hiring mercenaries or are these municipal troops? They seem to arrive (if at all) after Burnt Offerings ends and then leave again before the first of the Skinsaw Murders. My PCs are really looking forward to meeting them, though.
If they're mercenaries, are they part of some sort of established troop? If they're from the municipal guard, do we know anything about their command structure?
It would be easy enough to make some second-level human fighters and have them lounging about the Rusty Dragon for a couple of days, eating and drinking on their expense account. I might yet go that route. If nothing else I can have one with ties to the Scarnettis, another with ties to the Sczarni, and add one or two more little story hooks.
On the other hand, if anyone has developed these NPCs into something more then I'd love to see it.
Creative Director
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Magnimar's powers of red tape and bureaucracy more or less ensures that nothing comes of the attempt to gather additional soldiers. Hemlock gets frustrated after a week or so of trying to convince Magnimar's government that they NEED more soldiers, especially since the goblin problem seems to have been dealt with (at least from Magnimar's viewpoint) already WITHOUT the extra soldiers.
The story reason: Not infesting Sandpoint with extra soldiers helps to make the PCs more in the spotlight and more heroic.
Thanks. Maybe I'll use this as an opportunity to foreshadow Ironbriar.
IMG hemlock returened with a half dozen nameless facless mercenaries that he hired after getting tired on waiting on official chanels, this worked out fairly well as after my initial party TPKed in thistletop, we worked the new characters into the storyline by saying that they were some of the mercenaries that Hemlock had hired (this also gave me a chance to let the new characters "know" what had gone on before, having been told by the sherrif and mayor everything that had transpired up to the point of the last group leaving for thistletop, and hooked the group into going to thistletop in part to find out what had happened to the previous group which was now a week over due.
I find that for some groups (mine is one) if you make the NPCs ineffectual in the name of making the PCs more heroic, the players stop caring about the NPCs and it actually undercuts the heroism. You risk sending the message "the good folks are apathetic and dumb, who cares what happens to them?"
I had Hemlock come back with 8 more 2nd-level warriors. During Skinsaw, they contributed to the high-alert state of the town with guards at all three entries 24/7. That pretty much used them up; they were not available to go to outlying farms. I didn't develop them as individual characters, but in the town conflict over whether the PCs were innocent or guilty, the guards in general took the PCs' side based on the good relationship developed in Burnt Offerings.
Some of them also played cameo roles in the giant attack: a PC managed to temporarily paralyze a dire bear and the two gate-guards piled on it and delivered the coup de grace, to much cheering. They were also the ones who raised the alarm about the incoming giants at Northgate. In general, I tried to make the town look as involved and active as I could, without actually running all those NPCs.
Mary
Yeah, I thought the adventure text said something about Hemlock returning after a week or so with nothing but a handful of "raw recruits".
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I find that for some groups (mine is one) if you make the NPCs ineffectual in the name of making the PCs more heroic, the players stop caring about the NPCs and it actually undercuts the heroism. You risk sending the message "the good folks are apathetic and dumb, who cares what happens to them?"
That wasn't was James said, though. He said that they decided those NPC soldiers not to exist within the frame of the game. I think for the same reason you mentioned, to avoid ineffectual NPCs.
And look at all those cool NPCs in and around Sandpoint. I would have to make a great effort to dumb them down enough to send said message to my players. So I don't see Paizo going this route at all.
I find that for some groups (mine is one) if you make the NPCs ineffectual in the name of making the PCs more heroic, the players stop caring about the NPCs and it actually undercuts the heroism. You risk sending the message "the good folks are apathetic and dumb, who cares what happens to them?"That wasn't was James said, though. He said that they decided those NPC soldiers not to exist within the frame of the game. I think for the same reason you mentioned, to avoid ineffectual NPCs.
When I said "ineffectual" I was thinking specifically about Magnimar, the ruling city of Western Varisia, which seems unable to do anything all campaign long except beg the PCs for help. It doesn't mount a reasonable response to the direct-threat events in #2, nor to #3 (except for sending the PCs), nor to #4, nor to #5. My player had a big problem with this; it felt forced and unreal to him, and also led to him holding Magnimar in contempt. This didn't go well with the hooks in #3.
I added a lot of Magnimaran responses, but sometimes I didn't see the problem in time and had to add them after the fact, which didn't feel very good.
I have no problem with the idea that the Magnimaran 2nd level soldiers were not much help against the giants. I have a big problem with the idea that Magnimar would never send anyone at all. Sandpoint is supposedly in their sphere of influence, but they ignore it all campaign long. I doubt they'd still *have* a sphere of influence if that was their general practice.
This obviously varies from group to group. Some players hate it if NPCs ever manage to do anything for themselves, but for us, it's essential if we want the PCs to care about them.
Mary
The current mayor is (canonically) bad at his job. I plan on showcasing this by pointing out the shortcomings you highlight. I agree that in the long term Magnimar definitely wouldn't have a sphere of influence if it persisted in these practices, but if Lord Mayor Grobaras concerned himself with this then he wouldn't be the character as presented.
(Just to be clear: I completely agree with your evaluation. I'm just reacting to it differently based on having different players.)
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When I said "ineffectual" I was thinking specifically about Magnimar, the ruling city of Western Varisia, which seems unable to do anything all campaign long except beg the PCs for help. It doesn't mount a reasonable response to the direct-threat events in #2, nor to #3 (except for sending the PCs), nor to #4, nor to #5. My player had a big problem with this; it felt forced and unreal to him, and also led to him holding Magnimar in contempt. This didn't go well with the hooks in #3.
I haven't read #5 so far, but as far as #2,3 and 4 are concerned, I'm not sure what response you would expect. They do not know anything about the threat in #2 until the PC come and find prove of Ironbriars misdeeds. They do not know anything about the threat in #3 as well (until the PC take their time to inform them, that is). And they have no time to react to the Sandpoint assault, before it is over. And they have no idea about Mokmurian's army (until the PC take their time to inform them, that is).
I'd greatly appreciate your point of view as I'm sure that my players will bother me with those questions as well and at the moment I fail to see the problem.
Wormy
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I always appreciate your observations Mary, but in this case I'm not sure I agree with you. Magnimar isn't in the position to mount a military response to the growing threats of Mokmurian's army: it's a sea power whose traditional enemies are other sea powers. It might not even occur to the average Magnimarian that an organized land-based threat exists west of the Cinderlands.
I think the Lord Mayor would be reasonably suspicious of claims that a giant army is on a 300 mile march through the dark interior of Varisia to exact some ancient grudge. Even when raids become more common how do the PCs convince a government to change it's entire military structure (and spends tons of gold) to prepare for an army that inspires incredulity? What convinces a population that they’re preparing for an army, not just bold raiders?
Selk, I don't think that you and Mary are necessarily disagreeing. As I understand it, Mary's basic point is that Magnimar's satellite towns are going to be unhappy with Magnimar over the fact that they're having a lot of problems without getting a lot of help, and your basic point is that Magnimar isn't really in a position to give a lot of help in these types of situation. I think that both of these things are true.
Magnimar seems (to me) to be overextended. As you point out, they're a sea power with little ability to defend against the various problems occurring in the path. To make matters worse, Grobaras just doesn't care (SM p. 57).
To me, they sound ineffectual against these threats.
At some point Magnimar cared enough about the impoverished Skull River towns to built a fort and man it. It's possible that Magnimar is totally losing its grip and will no longer be a dominant city soon, but my player reacted to this as "sigh, just another stupid workaround to keep NPCs from ever doing anything for themselves."
I think you can certainly make a logical and coherent story for why the NPCs do nothing. It's just that I find, if I do that again and again, the alternative story "It's GM fiat" becomes more and more obtrusive until it destroys our belief in the setting. I prefer to look for any chance for NPCs to be capable and competent that still leaves the PCs with adequate opportunities to accomplish things on their own. For me--groups of course vary--having a few Magnimaran soldiers in Sandpoint in #1 and #2 is a small price to pay for not having to run yet another repetition of "The authorities do nothing, of course." My player has me on notice that he never wants to see that again.
Mary
I haven't read #5 so far, but as far as #2,3 and 4 are concerned, I'm not sure what response you would expect. They do not know anything about the threat in #2 until the PC come and find prove of Ironbriars misdeeds. They do not know anything about the threat in #3 as well (until the PC take their time to inform them, that is). And they have no time to react to the Sandpoint assault, before it is over. And they have no idea about Mokmurian's army (until the PC take their time to inform them, that is).
Wormy
Early in #2 many, possibly a dozen or more, people have been murdered. Perhaps Sandpoint has given up on Magnimar and never mentions this, but it seems odd that they don't ask for help, especially since many Sandpointers are suspicious of the PCs and therefore wouldn't be counting on them.
Magnimar certainly knows there is a problem in #3 as they send the PCs. However, James has indicated (and the module certainly supports) that they never send anything else--they abandon Fort Rannick, and therefore the three upriver towns, with no further efforts.
In #4 there have been multiple reports of giant raiders. If you look at the map, the giants must have crossed a lot of inhabited country to reach Sandpoint; when the PCs retrace their route they find giant raiders everywhere. This must have been noticed, and indeed the module says that Magnimar sent an army--but there is no sign of it anywhere. It should probably have gone through Sandpoint, or failing that, through that town on the steaming lake. Where is it?
In #5 there is a huge sinkhole in the middle of Sandpoint. Again, somehow Magnimar isn't informed. I guess everyone thinks they are useless. I could imagine that Sandpoint is too ruggedly individualistic to ever report problems, though after the giants that seems strange, but in #1 they *do* report problems.
I'm probably overly touchy about this because it was such a big problem for us in AoW. My player took a violent hatred to the series of "useful" AoW NPCs who refuse to actually do anything. The two places in AoW where the NPC refuses to help and then *berates the PCs for not wanting to do it alone* went over particularly badly. RotRL isn't nearly that bad, but I used up 150% of my player's tolerance for this in AoW, so I musn't do it again.
Mary
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Early in #2 many, possibly a dozen or more, people have been murdered. Perhaps Sandpoint has given up on Magnimar and never mentions this, but it seems odd that they don't ask for help, especially since many Sandpointers are suspicious of the PCs and therefore wouldn't be counting on them.
This is a possible development, but at first there are "only" 5 victims (the two at the mill and those three unlucky con men). At this point, Sheriff Hemlock turns to the new local heroes. And how the adventure develops from this point on largely depends on the SCs' actions. Plus they aren't suspects from the start. Maybe the need to call for Magnimars help can arise but that is nothing which can be foreseen so I find it understandable that any possible development is not included in the adventure.
Magnimar certainly knows there is a problem in #3 as they send the PCs. However, James has indicated (and the module certainly supports) that they never send anything else--they abandon Fort Rannick, and therefore the three upriver towns, with no further efforts.
While I agree to the first sentence I cannot find anything indicating the last. They send the SC 'cause they know that there is some kind of a problem but the adventure makes no assumptions on what happens if the SC deny the stewardship of Fort Rannick. The problems of #3 have been discussed elsewhere but why should Magnimar send any forces in the direction of Fort Rannick before they have been informed by someone of what had happened there? What happens afterwards is not treated by the adventure.
This must have been noticed, and indeed the module says that Magnimar sent an army--but there is no sign of it anywhere. It should probably have gone through Sandpoint, or failing that, through that town on the steaming lake. Where is it?
The only thing I can remember with regard of the army is the information that the report's of Giants at the edge of civilization "caused Magnimar's standing army to take notice" which results in increased patrols. I agree there could have some roleplaying encounter after the Assault including such a patrol and I think it's possible that Magnimar sends troops to Sandpoint when they hear from the Giant attack. But there's just no reason for the army to march out if they have no idea where to go.
In #5 there is a huge sinkhole in the middle of Sandpoint. Again, somehow Magnimar isn't informed. I guess everyone thinks they are useless. I could imagine that Sandpoint is too ruggedly individualistic to ever report problems, though after the giants that seems strange, but in #1 they *do* report problems.
As I said before, I haven't read through #5 so far, so I can only answer with regard to #1. They *do* report problems, but I can easily understand Magnimar's aversion to do anything against problems that already have been dealt with.
I totally agree that all those things could have been handled better by the Magnimarian authoritys but a look at our own (in my case german) politicians is enough to make the poor handling by Lord-Mayor Grobaras totally believable.
And remember: Magnimar isn't nearly as centralistic as Korvosa. I think Sandpoint is (like Turtleback Ferry) a highly independent town. They think that they are able to handle their own problems. And I'd guess that they are expected to handle them on their own most of the time.
I'm probably overly touchy about this because it was such a big problem for us in AoW. My player took a violent hatred to the series of...
I totally understand your point. But I don't find RotRL very similar to AoW as far as the development of NSCs is concerned.