Ars Magica and D&D / d20

[Rezdave]

Has anyone every attempted or seen rules to integrate Ars Magica-style magic-mechanics into D&D or the d20 system?

I've always liked the Ars Magica freeform Techniques & Forms system since I encountered it in the White Wolf (3rd Ed.?) era. I recently acquired 5th Ed., and noticed that it went from a 5-point to a 20-point scale.

It seems to me that there is a 10-point middle-ground that would fit very well and/or replace the 10-Level D&D spell system.

A buddy is starting a d20 Modern game, and we both feel the individual, spontaneous and free-form style of Ars Magica better fits the milieu than the more specified, scribed and formulaic D&D system. Frankly, it's a magic-rare world with very few "spells", and so learning Forms & Techniques the way other characters learn Skills suits the tone of the game better, anyway.

Any help, advice, suggestions or referrals would be appreciated.

Rez

[Cato Novus]

I'm unfamiliar with the magic system in this game you mention. I'm guessing by your post that it does not use the spells per day that the d20 system uses.

In Ars Magica; do you have mana, or do you have to recharge after every spell you cast?

[Stebehil]

Combining the great Ars Magica magic system with D&D (or d20) will be difficult, to say the least.

First, Ars Magica does not use character levels, which is a crucial difference. So, you would have to invent a mechanic that somehow reconciles the ArM techniques and forms (called Arts) with levels - perhaps introducing something like a max on Arts based on character level. You might give each wizard some points to distribute each level - say, ten points for level 1 and five more for each level thereafter (just examples, watch out for game balance.)

Second, you should compare ArM spells to their D&D (or d20) counterparts to get an idea for the power of the spells. A fireball is CrIg level 35 (IIRC) in ArM. The charm of ArM is that a beginning wizard could use a fireball if he learned these Arts to the exclusion of almost everything else. Say that you need one point in each Art involved to cast a spell of the first level, you would need three points in Creo and Ignem to cast a fireball. With the starting 10 points, you could have Creo at three and Ignem at three easily - and have four points left for the other 13 Arts. This wizard could cast a fireball at first character level, but not much else. If the wizard would spread his ten points (perhaps 10 + Int bonus) equally, he would be able to cast most first-level spells.

Third, Ars Magica uses fatigue as a measure for the ability to cast spells. Fatigue is measured in degrees and makes it more difficult to cast further spells. This will be very difficult to reproduce. You could either go for a static system that allows to cast a set number of spells each day, or you would have to invent a mechanic that allows for something similar - say, roll d20 + con against 10 + spell level. If you make the difficulty, all is well. If you don´t make it, you take the spell level and/or the margin by which you missed the DC as non-lethal damage. If you botch, you might take lethal damage. (It is possible to kill yourself by badly botching a spell!).

I think that atlas games offered the 4th Ed. of the Ars Magica rules as a free download a while ago, but I don´t know if they still do, for those interested in the system.

Stefan

[magdalena thiriet]

A mind-boggling attempt, as described by Stefan above.

Doing some kind of spells-per-day in my opinion somewhat misses the point of the system, because it is half the fun that if you really can handle some form or technique well, you can cast as many little spontaneous cantrips as you wish (and dare, since there is the possibility of botching).

And it does upset the balance of the game (having a first level character capable of loads of fireballs per day does change the game, don't you think). Not to mention that if you plan also to introduce "vis" in the game to deal with the limits of magic given in Ars Magica...

In my opinion it would be really unwieldy combination either being a Frankenstein-style monstrosity or requiring loads and loads and loads of work. Conversion would be easier for levelless systems (WoD, GURPS, RuneQuest, Cthulhu...)

[Stebehil]

magdalena thiriet wrote:

Doing some kind of spells-per-day in my opinion somewhat misses the point of the system.

Surely it does. The Ars Magica magic system is highly flexible and has a wealth of possibilities. Most of its elegance will be lost if used in a d20 system, which tend to treat magic much more static. I tried to use it in AD&D2 as well, and stopped after a short while - the basic concepts are quite disparate and accordingly hard to combine.

One major point is that Ars Magica does not try to balance the "classes" - the Magi are clearly more powerful than all the other characters.

Stefan

[Matthew Morris]

You may want to take a look at McWoD. Monte and Sean did an excellent job of making a freeform magical system. Though they mention starting characters are about equal to 4th level regular characters in power.

[Stebehil]

Matthew Morris wrote:

You may want to take a look at McWoD. Monte and Sean did an excellent job of making a freeform magical system. Though they mention starting characters are about equal to 4th level regular characters in power.

Huh? I have honestly no idea what you are referring to. Got a link?

Stefan

[FatRat]

Here is a link to an attempt to do this with 4th edtion Ars Magica and d20: Ars Magica for d20.

I have no idea how good this is...I just remembered having seen it a few years ago and dug up the link.

[Matthew Morris]

Stebehil wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

You may want to take a look at McWoD. Monte and Sean did an excellent job of making a freeform magical system. Though they mention starting characters are about equal to 4th level regular characters in power.

Huh? I have honestly no idea what you are referring to. Got a link?

Stefan

McWod Monte Cook's World of Darkness. It even has fatigue rules.

[Stebehil]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Stebehil wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

You may want to take a look at McWoD. Monte and Sean did an excellent job of making a freeform magical system. Though they mention starting characters are about equal to 4th level regular characters in power.

Huh? I have honestly no idea what you are referring to. Got a link?

Stefan

McWod Monte Cook's World of Darkness. It even has fatigue rules.

Thanks for the link. I think I had heard about that one, but forgot again. Another book on my wishlist *sigh* :-)

Stefan

[Sebastian]

Matthew Morris wrote:

You may want to take a look at McWoD. Monte and Sean did an excellent job of making a freeform magical system. Though they mention starting characters are about equal to 4th level regular characters in power.

Beaten to the punch! I'd definitely take a look at McWoD. It should give you the basic magic mechanics that are similar to Ars Magica.

[Stebehil]

Could you please stop using McWoD as a shorthand? It reminds me of McDonalds (and various other enterprises called McSomething), and for me that stands for a cheap, mass-market version of anything worthwile.

(and, yes, I will get it...)

Stefan

[Sebastian]

Stebehil wrote:

Could you please stop using McWoD as a shorthand? It reminds me of McDonalds (and various other enterprises called McSomething), and for me that stands for a cheap, mass-market version of anything worthwile.

(and, yes, I will get it...)

Stefan

It is what it is. That's the abbreviation people use and people generally know what I mean when I type McWoD. Whether or not it is the abbreviation I would have chosen is irrelevant. I don't have the authority to make such decisions or the power to implement them. Take it up with the internet at large.

[Matthew Morris]

Sebastian wrote:

Stebehil wrote:

Could you please stop using McWoD as a shorthand? It reminds me of McDonalds (and various other enterprises called McSomething), and for me that stands for a cheap, mass-market version of anything worthwile.

(and, yes, I will get it...)

Stefan

It is what it is. That's the abbreviation people use and people generally know what I mean when I type McWoD. Whether or not it is the abbreviation I would have chosen is irrelevant. I don't have the authority to make such decisions or the power to implement them. Take it up with the internet at large.

It's also the abbreviation in the book itself, IIRC.

I found it funny. Just trying to figure out how to work in OWoD kuei Jin and dhamypr into the mechanics.

[Rezdave]

Thanks to those who've put in links. I'll review them, and any new ones are appreciated.

I'm not too concerned about the Mechanics questions and already have a lot of game-balance thoughts.

Again, worth noting is that this is for a d20 Modern game in a magic-rare setting (WW2 French Resistance starting with some semi-supernatural Indiana Jones stuff and no overt magic but a Mage:Ascention-style Veil, then heading towards Call of Cthulhu) and not a traditional D&D game. Magic exists but not many "spells" and so the progressive nature of ArM seemed a great way for PCs to "discover" magic and develop on their own.

If desired I can eventually write up our thoughts on mechanics and keep you guys updated.

Rez

[Dragonchess Player]

Rezdave wrote:

Thanks to those who've put in links. I'll review them, and any new ones are appreciated.

I'm not too concerned about the Mechanics questions and already have a lot of game-balance thoughts.

Again, worth noting is that this is for a d20 Modern game in a magic-rare setting (WW2 French Resistance starting with some semi-supernatural Indiana Jones stuff and no overt magic but a Mage:Ascention-style Veil, then heading towards Call of Cthulhu) and not a traditional D&D game. Magic exists but not many "spells" and so the progressive nature of ArM seemed a great way for PCs to "discover" magic and develop on their own.

If this is going to be a magic-rare setting, then you could tie the Ars Magica techniques and forms to the d20 skill system, using Technique (specific) skills and Form (specific) skills that can't be used untrained. You could also make them cross-class skills for all classes to keep magic weak and rare. You may also want to re-work the spells to more closely mimic the Ars Magica progression (including replacing the per caster level effects with per spell level effects, since "caster level" is less important under this style of spellcasting than technique and form totals). Requiring a Technique + Form + Con bonus check against a DC = 10 + (2 x "magnitude/spell level") to avoid becoming fatigued (or exhausted if already fatigued) should keep the spellcasters from continuously blasting away with their most powerful spells.

If you also include vis (and keep it very rare) in the setting, you can also make magical items very rare, too.