I got a lot of good insights in my question about the Identify spell, so I thought I'd toss another idea out there to see how game breaking it was.
This premise started with an idea to differentiate druidic and clerical magic. The idea I came up with was to say that clerics get their spells through their connection and devotion to a singular, powerful extraplanar being. Druids, however, would take the other option and gain their spells through their association with numerous, weaker spirits. So while the cleric's God of War, or whatever, is powerful enough to provide any spell that cleric might call on, the druids spirits would only be powerful enough to provide a single spell or type of spell. But he'd make up for it by knowing a LOT of spirits.
Anyhoo, the extension of *that* idea was to then treat druids as the divine equivelant of sorcerers. The spontaneous casting would better represent them calling on the spirits of whatever area they're in at the time. In game terms, the spirits that they know how to contact would provide the limitation in having to choose what spells they have available to them.
So, with all that in mind, how broken would a druid be if I just cribbed over the sorcerer's spell progression but kept all the other class features? The current druid list seems comprable to the cleric's list which seems comparable to the wizards list, so the secondary abilities appear balanced. Is that really not the case? Would I be giving druids too much magical power/not enough magical power by using the sorcerer's spell progression?
I think this is a perfectly acceptable option. It doesn't seem un-balanced at all. I'd recommend playtesting it and posting your findings!
I think you'd be better off simply giving the Favored Soul class access to the druid spell list rather than making druids spontaneous casters. Spontaneous casting, in addition to a druid's multiple special abilities, is just too powerful. Another option would be to simply use the Spirit Shaman class, which is basically what you're describing. Both the Favored Soul and the Spirit Shaman can be found in Complete Divine, by the way.
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This premise started with an idea to differentiate druidic and clerical magic. The idea I came up with was to say that clerics get their spells through their connection and devotion to a singular, powerful extraplanar being. Druids, however, would take the other option and gain their spells through their association with numerous, weaker spirits. So while the cleric's God of War, or whatever, is powerful enough to provide any spell that cleric might call on, the druids spirits would only be powerful enough to provide a single spell or type of spell. But he'd make up for it by knowing a LOT of spirits.
The alternative to this would be that the Cleric has a single god who answers his prayers (and / or has lots of servitor creatures / avatars / whatever to handle the light work) and can pray for any spell in real-time, while the Druid has to prepare each morning by beseeching each particular spirit by name and requesting the sort of favor that only it can grant, something he wouldn't have time to do during a wild and wooly melee situation, unlike the Cleric, who belongs to an organized heirarchical church with diverse holy texts compiled over centuries outlining the various levels of favor that one can beseech, and the appropriate tone and presentation to pray for that particular miracle. The Druid, coming from a tradition that doesn't have large organized churches going back centuries, with holy texts and scriptures and precise ritualistic practices, would be *less* able to pick and choose effects on the fly, having to call up and negotiate with possibly *dozens* of different elemental, animal totem and nature / place spirits each morning!
Under this variant, the Cleric would be the Spontaneous caster and the Druid would be the Prepared caster.
(Neither class requires any real enhancement, both being top-shelf brands, so in either instance, I'd consider tweaking their other abilities to taste. For instance, the Shapeshifting Variant Druid is, IMO, horribly weak compared to the core Druid, and I'd consider Spontaneous Druidic casting a step towards putting it back on track.)
Sounds interesting. Since Clerics and Wizards and Druids all have the same spell progression, you hsould just be able to shoehorn the Sorceror spells/day and spells known onto the Druid without breaking balance.
I think you'd be better off simply giving the Favored Soul class access to the druid spell list rather than making druids spontaneous casters. ... Another option would be to simply use the Spirit Shaman class, which is basically what you're describing.
I'd heard of the Favored Soul, but not the Spirit Shaman. I may take a look at those to see how they're done and what they did to make them balanced. In the end, though, I'm looking for a way to make druids different from clerics. Right now, druids just feel too much like clerics of the Forest God rather than having their own distinct play style or campaign role.
And Set, you're too clever. Thanks for the alternative thought.
I always considered divine magic as being spontaneous, whatever the divine caster class (cleric, druid, paladin, ranger etc).
I always considered divine magic as being spontaneous, whatever the divine caster class (cleric, druid, paladin, ranger etc).
How's that working for you?
I've only given surface thought to how my campaign world would treat paladins and rangers. My initial idea was that paladins are ritualistic casters like clerics and rangers are spiritual casters like druids. I haven't even looked at how many spells per day or what have you I'd give them.
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I always considered divine magic as being spontaneous, whatever the divine caster class (cleric, druid, paladin, ranger etc).How's that working for you?
I've only given surface thought to how my campaign world would treat paladins and rangers. My initial idea was that paladins are ritualistic casters like clerics and rangers are spiritual casters like druids. I haven't even looked at how many spells per day or what have you I'd give them.
You could take the route I am. Paladins in my campaign world are a Prestige Class as outlined in Unearthed Arcana and Rangers are normally non-spellcasters as outlined in... well, its either Complete Warrior or Player's Handbook 2, I forget which. If a Ranger wants to be a spellcaster, its a combat style he has to follow, meaning he gives up Two-Weapon Fighting and Archery styles.
I do like the idea about spontaneous divine casting, however. I may look into it.
I had the same thoughts: The sorcerer's way of spellcasting - without preparation - was underused in 3e. It would fit the druid quite well.
You could just give him the sorcerer's progression of spells/day and spells known, or keep his spells/day but give him a spells known list.
Or you could use the spirit shaman system, where you have a (small) number of spells known, but which you can change every day.
Personally, I might go this way:
Give him the spells known of the sorcerer, let him change them each day (he calls on different spirits every day, appeasing them, requesting help and so on, and they follow him around for a day) and leave his old spells/day.
If you feel that you have too much time on your hands, you could invent a host of spirits, some small, some big, each with his own set of spells. Then you give him not spells/known, but spirits "known". Maybe there are least, lesser, greater, and primal spirits or something, each with a different number of spells of different levels.
Of course, this would take a ton of work, but could work out quite well.
If you feel that you have too much time on your hands, you could invent a host of spirits, some small, some big, each with his own set of spells. Then you give him not spells/known, but spirits "known". Maybe there are least, lesser, greater, and primal spirits or something, each with a different number of spells of different levels.
Thematically that's what I'm thinking, but it won't be reflected so heavily in the rules. To my mind, when the druid selects his spells known (just as the sorcerer has a limited number of arcane spells that he can cast), that represents the types of spirits he knows the rituals for. So when he casts entangle it's because he knows how to entreat the local vine spirits (or whatever). That also gives me a good reason to make druids spell progression Charisma-based like the sorcerer's too.
...Rangers are normally non-spellcasters as outlined in... well, its either Complete Warrior or Player's Handbook 2, I forget which. If a Ranger wants to be a spellcaster, its a combat style he has to follow, meaning he gives up Two-Weapon Fighting and Archery styles.
That's a clever idea. Do the rangers get anything in return for giving up this assumed class trait? I can see my players agreeing to spontaneous casting for the druid, but I doubt they'd jump at the chance to just play something that's the equivelent of a fighter who has taken archery-related feats.
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Why yes, yes they do. However I don't have the materials handy. I'll check some online sources and get back here with a post.
{Edit}
At 6th Level, the Ranger gets +10 feet to movement speed when not in Heavy Armor or carrying a heavy load. This is an Extraordinary Ability.
At 11th Level, the Ranger can spend a Standard Action to grant +4 to either Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom for one minute per class level. Usable once per day as a Supernatural Ability.
At 13th Level, the Ranger can use Neutralize Poison or Remove Disease as a Supernatural Ability once per day.
At 16th Level, the Ranger can use Freedom of Movement as a Supernatural Ability once per day.
Although you might wanna swap the 13th or 16th Level ability out for another +10 bonus to movement speed. I'd suggest 13th level.
By the way, the resource I checked says this is listed in Complete Warrior. In that it doesn't say that a spellcasting Ranger gives up the other combat styles. That's something I'm doing with my own campaign world. It just makes more sense to me that way.
Unearthed Arcana describes how to build a divine spontaneous spellcaster. Since it's OGL and on d20SRD, I've reposted it below. One of my players ran a spontaneous druid for 14 levels (along with the avenger druid variant also in UA) and has been pretty happy with it.
Spontaneous Divine Casters
As a twist on the traditional divine spellcaster, this variant converts the cleric and druid into spontaneous spellcasters. Such characters have a limited number of spells known, as the sorcerer does, though their selection is not quite as limited as the sorcerer's list.
Like other spellcasters, a character using this variant system can cast a certain number of spells per day. His base daily spell allotment is the same as a normal cleric's number of spells per day (not including domain spells), plus one spell per day of each spell level he can cast. For instance, a 1st-level cleric using this system can cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day.
However, the divine caster's selection of spells known is limited. At 1st level, the character begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice, plus his two 1st-level domain spells (if a cleric) or summon nature's ally I (if a druid). At each new level in the character's divine spellcasting class, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Spells Known.
Table: Spells Known
Level Spells Known
0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 4 2 — — — — — — — —
2nd 5 2 — — — — — — — —
3rd 5 3 0 — — — — — — —
4th 6 3 1 — — — — — — —
5th 6 4 2 0 — — — — — —
6th 7 4 2 1 — — — — — —
7th 7 5 3 2 0 — — — — —
8th 8 5 3 2 1 — — — — —
9th 8 5 4 3 2 0 — — — —
10th 9 5 4 3 2 1 — — — —
11th 9 5 5 4 3 2 0 — — —
12th 9 5 5 4 3 2 1 — — —
13th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 0 — —
14th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 — —
15th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 0 —
16th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 —
17th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 0
18th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1
19th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2
20th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3
Characters who use this option lose the ability to spontaneously cast cure, inflict, or summon nature's ally spells in place of other spells. However, each time the character gains a new spell level, he gains one or more bonus spells known to add to his list. A cleric may add his two domain spells to his list of spells known, while a druid may add the appropriate summon nature's ally spell to her list of spells known. (An entry of 0 on the table indicates that the cleric knows only his domain spells of that level, and the druid knows only the summon nature's ally spell of that level.)
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered class level after that, a cleric or druid can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. This functions identically to the sorcerer's ability to swap out known spells, except that a cleric may never choose to lose a domain spell and a druid may never choose to lose a summon nature's ally spell.
For example, a cleric has chosen the domains of Good and Healing, which means that at 1st level, he automatically knows cure light wounds and protection from evil. In addition, he chooses four spells from the list of 0-level cleric spells (cure minor wounds, detect magic, light, and read magic) and two spells from the list of 1st-level cleric spells (bless and shield of faith). He now knows four 0-level spells and four 1st-level spells.
Another example: At 4th level, a druid learns a new 0-level spell and a new 2nd-level spell. She can also choose to replace one of her 0-level spells known with a different spell of the same level. She chooses to replace know direction with detect poison.