Frankly, I don't see the problem if you want to do a crit threat becoming a crit. So if you roll an 18 and are using a rapier, you crit. Just seems like an unnecessary extra step to me.
Contributor
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The problem with this is that then you end up with scenarios where you can only hit if you crit. So you are using a rapier and your attack bonus is +3 and you're fighting a guy with AC 22. You need to roll a 19 to hit him, but your crit range is 18-20, so all of your hits are critical threats. If it's an auto confirm than all of your hits are crits.
It doesn't come up all that often, except that with some characters it does. If you have a rogue with a keen scimitar, for example, they will frequently be facing apponents that are difficult for them to hit, but their crit range is 15-20. I've played with a lot of people who built crit monster characters, and this scenario frequently comes up with them.
if the combat is such that only a crit will hit, doesnt stand to reason that an automatic crit sort of averages out the damage anyway? if a combat goes four rounds, three are misses, and one is a crit, seems that the PCs are allready behind the curve of dealing out damage.
on the other hand, if the combat goes four rounds, and three are hits, and one is a crit, the combat is prolly going fairly well for the PCs anyway, and the extra damage is just icing on the cake.
i would propose an automatic crit on a natural 20, with the rest of the crit range reqiring a confirmation.
just as a roll of a 1 is a natural miss (and perhaps a fumble).
a twenty is a twenty, no matter how small.
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The problem with this is that then you end up with scenarios where you can only hit if you crit. So you are using a rapier and your attack bonus is +3 and you're fighting a guy with AC 22. You need to roll a 19 to hit him, but your crit range is 18-20, so all of your hits are critical threats. If it's an auto confirm than all of your hits are crits.
It doesn't come up all that often, except that with some characters it does. If you have a rogue with a keen scimitar, for example, they will frequently be facing apponents that are difficult for them to hit, but their crit range is 15-20. I've played with a lot of people who built crit monster characters, and this scenario frequently comes up with them.
Right on. I was just wondering if there was a problem with it.
I also realize that it would up the lethality of the combats, which would ultimately rag on the characters....
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In the "version" I'm developing with my group (anti 4E and all), we are going back to "Nat 20 ONLY" as a crit.
I've been considering creating a Class Feat to make it a 10% instead of 5% chance, ie 19-20. In this mechanic, if the PC rolls a 20 it would be an auto-crit (or 19 w/ Feat) -- no more 2nd roll needed to "confirm."
I like this "old school" mechanic better than the 19, 18, or sometimes even as low as 15 critical "threat." It was a good concept but I think there should be something special about just 20 on the roll. Furthermore, at higher levels it's just way too easy to confirm -- though fighters do get to feel a little bit like the artillary wizards for a round.
One of the things my group will playtest with this, though, is a possible "second roll." The proposed concept is this: 1) nat 20 = crit. 2) roll again for even more damage: a 2nd "20" means quadruple instead of double damage.
What we want to playtest is this: will someone twice roll a 20 often enough for this to even come up in-game and if not do we want to change the necesary 2nd roll to make it happen more often -- and how to make sure we keep game balance.
So, do we say, "Okay, 2nd roll after the nat 20 must be a regular hit" (like 3E) or "Okay, 2nd roll has a 10% chance of going from double damage to quadrouple damage -- probably a 0 on a d10 instead of 19-20.
-W. E. Ray
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I would have to be against a Critical Hit without confirmation. Preferably(to me, anyway), a Natural 20 is an automatic success and a Natural 1 is an automatic failure.
Just as I would require a Critical Confirmation for the 20, I would also require a Fumble Confirmation(either a Dexterity Check or Reflex Save, DC of 10-12) for the 1.
Why back in Box Set "BECMI" D&D we used to play with a natural 20 = maximum damage houserule. I feel burglarized. :P
I don't think D&D3 would support a critical hit without confirmation rule without a few other houserules. Because of all the 19-20 or x3 crit weapons were made to be so different in that effect.
Back in 2E, we played that a natural 20 was crit if the total was at least 5 more than you needed to hit.
I am likely changing my house rule to make a natural 20 a auto crit but other threats (15-19) need to be confirmed.
In our game a natural 1 is an auto miss but you have to confirm a critical failure (using charts a friend made) by rolling a second d20 and getting 10 or less. I like the reflex save idea though, hmmm...
Goo
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Basically, we used to do just that: You roll in the crit range, it was a critical. And for awhile, it worked. Then the claw came into play.
There was some weapon that had a natural crit range of 18-20. Someone had found it, and it was like a claw. The character using it eventually found (bought) a keen version of said weapon. Then took Improved Critical for said weapon. The crit range became 12-20 all of a sudden, and that character crit every few seconds.
Jump ahead a few months. Someone takes power critical. We review it, and start using the new crit rules in order to facilitate this feat. They worked quite well, and people we glad that the crit machine was gone.
I am likely changing my house rule to make a natural 20 a auto crit but other threats (15-19) need to be confirmed...
I use pretty much the same mechanic for critical hits. For my group it struck the balance between a natural 20 still being cool and exciting to roll and keeping weapons with extra crit ranges from being too powerful.
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I am likely changing my house rule to make a natural 20 a auto crit but other threats (15-19) need to be confirmed.
In our game a natural 1 is an auto miss but you have to confirm a critical failure (using charts a friend made) by rolling a second d20 and getting 10 or less. I like the reflex save idea though, hmmm...
Goo
Yeah, that's something I'm trying to iron out. Its hard to find the right spot for it. If its a Dexterity check, then I think 12 is fair, but as a Reflex save, then I'm thinking 14 or 15.
AutoCrit on 20s make warhammers more powerful then swords. I actually like that. Warhammers were my favorite melee weapon in GURPS Fantasy.
In my games, all natural 20's are automatical criticals with no need to reroll. Threats on anything less require a reroll. Been doing it this way ever since 3.0 with no problem.
If it takes away a die roll, I'm game! As to the 1st level character auto-critting a great wyrm red dragon every 20 swings, well, so what? The dragon still has hundreds of hp. In the unlikely event that a scenario like this comes up, the underdog needs all the help he can get!
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AutoCrit on 20s make warhammers more powerful then swords. I actually like that. Warhammers were my favorite melee weapon in GURPS Fantasy.
Were warhammers presented in their real life form--i.e. the spike on the back is the business end and the hammer is really just weight to help the spike punch through plate mail armor? One of the things I liked about the Conan game is it took weapons' true qualities into consideration. Against a guy in plate mail, a rapier would be pretty useless; a warhammer would be the proper tool. Two guys in street clothes that know how to use their weapons though, a rapier is gonna win against a warhammer; the warhammer wielder should just throw it at the swordsman and run away.
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Hmm. Claw bracers in FR have a range of 17-20. But they require an exotic feat and do awful damage. I guess the damage is pretty good if you crit on a 9-20 with no confirmation.
Claw bracers are why the Cult of the Dragon will never take over the world.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was it. I know it was low damage, but being able to double it every attack was enough.
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AutoCrit on 20s make warhammers more powerful then swords. I actually like that. Warhammers were my favorite melee weapon in GURPS Fantasy.Were warhammers presented in their real life form--i.e. the spike on the back is the business end and the hammer is really just weight to help the spike punch through plate mail armor? One of the things I liked about the Conan game is it took weapons' true qualities into consideration. Against a guy in plate mail, a rapier would be pretty useless; a warhammer would be the proper tool. Two guys in street clothes that know how to use their weapons though, a rapier is gonna win against a warhammer; the warhammer wielder should just throw it at the swordsman and run away.
Actually, Rapiers are a major part of the decline of platemail. A swordsman weilding one with a quick wrist could pierce the platemail because he was putting so much force upon such a small area. Then the advent of three edged shortswords and daggers drove the point home, pun intended.
There was some weapon that had a natural crit range of 18-20. Someone had found it, and it was like a claw. The character using it eventually found (bought) a keen version of said weapon. Then took Improved Critical for said weapon. The crit range became 12-20 all of a sudden, and that character crit every few seconds.
Actually Keen and Improved Critical don't stack.
There was some weapon that had a natural crit range of 18-20. Someone had found it, and it was like a claw. The character using it eventually found (bought) a keen version of said weapon. Then took Improved Critical for said weapon. The crit range became 12-20 all of a sudden, and that character crit every few seconds.Actually Keen and Improved Critical don't stack.
They did in 3.0, but that was one of the changes in 3.5. The nastiness of a Weapon Master (Sword and Fist) with falchion as their weapon of choice, Improved Critical (falchion), and a keen falchion was just over the top. Any roll of 10-20 was a critical threat!
What I have in my game is a special chart I made That the players get to roll on when they confirm a critical.
Also on a 20 they can choose to do Double damage or roll again and add the new total to the first damage total or do Max.
If they confirm the weapon does the extra multilpe AND a roll on the below insane chart.
The monsters also use this chart.
But I have other systems that keep a character in the game - LUCK, the NOOOOOOO ! and Hero points.
I also have a crit system for elemental attacks and poison.
Critical Hits
( Armor ) means normal crit damage - no special effects - but armor is damaged
SLASHING (scimitar, bastard sword, broad sword, long sword, great sword, axes)
01-10 Hard hit 10 % extra damage on final damage count
11-20 Powerful Hit 20 % extra damage "
21-30 Massive Hit 30% extra Damage "
31-40 Brutal Hit 40 % extra Damage "
41-80 Limb damaged see limb damage chart
81 Belly hit 50 % extra damage Balance DC 10 or fall
82 Belly ripped open Extra multiple.Bleeding 1 hp round
83 Chest slash 60 % extra damage. - dazed - fatigued "
84 Ribs bashed 70 % extra damage - dazed one round. " Bleeding 1 hp round
85 Massive Chest Chop ( Sheild ) 80 % extra damage -fatigued- stunned one round
86 Throat slash - extra multiple- no speech ( full helm - gorget ) Bleeding 1 hp round
87 Throat cut - Two extra multiples. Bleeding 1 hp round
88 Eye Hacked - Dazed for one round - blind ( Covered helm )
89 Eye removed- Dazed for one round - blind
90 Ear removed - Stunned for one round -4 listen ( Helm )
91 Ear removed - Stunned for one round -4 listen
92 Face hit - nose smashed stunned 1-4 rounds ( Full Helm )
93 Face hit - Teeh smash stunned 1-4 rounds
94 Head hack dazed for 1 round Extra multiple ( Helm )
95 Head Hack dazed for 1 round Extra multiple ( Helm)
96 Head Hack Stunned for 1-3 Rounds Extra multiple (Helm)
97 Head Hack Stunned for 1-3 Rounds Extra multiple
98 Cut in half DEATH ( Sheild ) or two more multiples
99 Decapitated DEATH ( Gorget ) or two more multiples
100 Decapitated DEATH
PIERCING (Short Sword, Dagger, Spear, Arrow)
01-10 Hard hit 10 % extra damage on final damage count
11-20 Powerful Hit 20 % extra damage "
21-30 Massive Hit 30% extra Damage "
31-40 Brutal Hit 40 % extra Damage "
41-80 Limb damaged see limb damage chart
81 Belly Stab 50 % extra damage Balance DC 10 or fall
82 Weapon hits Bone Extra multiple
83 Chest Stab 60 % extra damage. - winded - fatigued
84 Lung graze 70 % extra damage - dazed one round.
85 Chest Impaled ( Sheild ) 80 % extra damage -fatigued- stunned one round
86 Throat Jabbed- extra multiple- no speech ( full helm - gorget )
87 Throat Impaled Two extra multiples- stunned one round - winded - fatigued
88 Eye Hacked - dazed for one round - blind ( Full helm )
89 Eye removed- dazed for one round - blind
90 Ear removed - Stunned for one round -4 listen ( Helm )
91 Ear removed - Stunned for one round -4 listen ( Full Helm )
92 Exceptional blow- weapon passes deep into body, Fort Save DC 15 or stunned 1-3 rounds. Extra Multiple.Bleeding 1 hp round
93 Terryfying blow - Pins arm to body ( Sheild ) - Extra Multiple and STR DC 10 to remove. Bleeding 1 hp round
94 Hideous Blow - Passes through body Fort Save DC 15 or stunned 1-3 rounds. Two Extra Multiples .Bleeding 1- 3 hp round
95 Skull Hit - dazed for 1 round, Extra multiple Lose 1-3 INT. (Helm)
96 Skull Hit - Stunned for 1 round, Extra multiple Lose 1-3 INT.
97 Chest totally impaled DEATH ( Sheild)
98 Chest totally impaled DEATH
99 Heart Pierced DEATH (Brestplate ) 2 more multiples.
100 Shot deep into head DEATH
Bludgoning (Bo-stick, Club, Hammer, Mace, Morning Star, Jo-stick, Quarterstaff, Flail)
01-10 Hard hit 10 % extra damage on final damage count
11-20 Powerful Hit 20 % extra damage "
21-30 Massive Hit 30% extra Damage "
31-40 Brutal Hit 40 % extra Damage "
41-80 Limb damaged see limb damage chart
81 Belly bashed 50 % extra damage Balance DC 12 or fall
82 Power Slam Extra multiple.Balance DC 12 or go flying Bleeding 1 hp round
83 Chest bash 60 % extra damage. - dazed - fatigued "
84 Ribs bashed 70 % extra damage - dazed 1-2 rounds. " Bleeding 1 hp round
85 Massive Chest bash ( Sheild ) 80 % extra damage -fatigued- stunned one round Balance DC 12 or go flying
86 Throat bash - extra multiple- no speech ( full helm - gorget ) Fatiuged
87 Throat Total bash - Two extra multiples. Bleeding 1 hp round Fatiuged
88 Eye bashed - stunned for one round - blinded till healed ( Covered helm )
89 Eye Bashed - stunned for one round - blinded till healed
90 Chin hit - stunned for one round ( Helm )
91 Chin hit - stunned for one round
92 Face hit - nose smashed stunned 1-4 rounds ( Full Helm )
93 Face hit - Teeh smash stunned 1-4 rounds
94 Head bash Stunned for 1 round Extra multiple ( Helm )
95 Head bash Stunned for 1 round Extra multiple ( Helm)
96 Head bash Stunned for 1-3 Rounds Extra multiple (Helm)
97 Head bash Stunned for 1-3 Rounds Extra multiple
98 Chest shatterd DEATH ( Sheild ) or two more multiples
99 Skull crushed DEATH ( Helm ) or two more multiples
100 Skull crushed DEATH
LIMB DAMAGE
AREA If it hits sheid treat as deflected with only half damage.
die roll
1 R. Leg
2 L. Leg
3 R. Arm
4 L. Arm
LOCATION (d10)
1 Fingers (toes)
2-3 Wrist (ankle)
4-5 Mid-forearm (mid-calf)
6-8 Elbow (knee)
9-10 Shoulder (hip)
ARM
% of remainging HP damage.
10 - 30 Temporarily damaged - 4 to rolls with that hand
31-50 Badly hacked -8 to rolls with that hand
51-90 Crippled severely -12 to rolls with that hand
91-100 Completely severed if fingers Remove 1-2 fingers, , 25% chance thumb. If thumb or 3+ fingers lost, drop weapon
LEG
Toes -10% movement
Temporarily damaged -10% movement
Badly hacked -25% movement
Crippled severely -50% movement
Completely severely-90%movment
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I like the threat/crit system. It builds suspense!
We also have a house rule where if you roll a 20 to threat, then another 20 to confirm you get a third roll. If you roll a third 20, you automatically kill whoever/whatever you're fighting. It's only happened once since 3.0 came out (and that was against a pretty nasty Ogre), but every time that 2nd 20 comes up, the entire table watches to see what happens...
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Contributor
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Actually, Rapiers are a major part of the decline of platemail. A swordsman weilding one with a quick wrist could pierce the platemail because he was putting so much force upon such a small area. Then the advent of three edged shortswords and daggers drove the point home, pun intended.
This is a common misconception, but totally false.
Rapiers were never intended to be used against armour, and were mostly ineffective against it. Rapiers were a civilian weapon.
Actually, even a warhammer spike would not reliably penetrate plate armour unless your opponent was on the ground, where the full force of your attack would be transmitted into it (rather than just knocking him backwards).
Heavy armour was dropped for two reasons. Bullets could penetrate it fairly reliably unless it was too heavy to be comfortable, and it slowed down troop movement. In the 17th century, Generals started to realize that success in war was more dependant on getting your trops where they were needed quickly than protecting individual soldiers. And of course, the third reason was the expense (especially since most soldiers didn't really take good care of their armour).
I've done physical puncture tests on accurate armour reproductions with accurate reproduction weapons, studied historical techniques for the warhammer and I teach historical rapier combat.
Three-edged weapons are a little outside my area of expertise, but my understanding was that they were designed to give more structural strength to lighter blades and create wounds that won't close.
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Actually, Rapiers are a major part of the decline of platemail. A swordsman weilding one with a quick wrist could pierce the platemail because he was putting so much force upon such a small area. Then the advent of three edged shortswords and daggers drove the point home, pun intended.This is a common misconception, but totally false.
Rapiers were never intended to be used against armour, and were mostly ineffective against it. Rapiers were a civilian weapon.
Actually, even a warhammer spike would not reliably penetrate plate armour unless your opponent was on the ground, where the full force of your attack would be transmitted into it (rather than just knocking him backwards).
Heavy armour was dropped for two reasons. Bullets could penetrate it fairly reliably unless it was too heavy to be comfortable, and it slowed down troop movement. In the 17th century, Generals started to realize that success in war was more dependant on getting your trops where they were needed quickly than protecting individual soldiers. And of course, the third reason was the expense (especially since most soldiers didn't really take good care of their armour).
I've done physical puncture tests on accurate armour reproductions with accurate reproduction weapons, studied historical techniques for the warhammer and I teach historical rapier combat.
Three-edged weapons are a little outside my area of expertise, but my understanding was that they were designed to give more structural strength to lighter blades and create wounds that won't close.
I stand corrected.