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If a dire ape, or a similar creature with the rend ability, attacks while using power attack, does it get the extra damage on the rend as well?
Without looking at any references what-so-ever, I'm gonna shoot from the hip and say no. My thinking here is that rend doesn't require an attack roll, therefore there's no BAB to sacrifice. Secondly, the extra damage benefit of Power Attack has already been used on the hits needed to activate the rend.
I could be wrong.
-Skeld
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True, but every rend ability I've seen happens to be regular damage doubled, except for the extra strength damage which is increased by 50% (2 attacks of 1d6+2 = rend of 2d6+3). I thought if the regular damage were increased, such as by increasing the size of the creature, then the rend damage would be increased as well. So how would rend be affected by power attack? Using the above example, if the creature power attacks for 4 and now hits twice doing 1d6+6, shouldn't it now rend for 2d6+9?
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I'm going to guess (since I'm not looking at any references) that the 1.5*StrMod damage comes from the fact that rend is a 2-handed ability (since you have to strike with 2 attacks). This is similar to the 2-handed weapon strength multiplier.
Again, I don't think rend would be affected by power attack because there's no attack roll involved in the rend portion of the attack. If there's no attack roll, there's no BAB to sacrifice. The power attack points you've already used modified the damage of the 2 hits needed to trigger the rend.
To summarize, I'd say that if there's no attack role, there's no power attack.
-Skeld
EDIT: Think of rend damage as extra, conditional damage similar to a sneak attack. In order to get sneak attack damage added in, you have to meet a condition (flanking or target's flat-footed). If you meet the condition, you add the damage. It doesn't matter how well you meet the conditions (for example, you don't multiply sneak attack damage on a crit and you don't get to add extra strength damage to your sneak attack).
Similarly, rend is conditional; the condition being that you have to hit with both your other attacks. How you got the hits doesn't matter. Nor does it matter how well you hit (you don't multiply rend damage if one of your triggering attacks crits).
I agree with Skeld,
Think of it this way... the initial attacks boosted by the power attacks are "seperate" from the rend which occures affter the initial boost of strength is used.
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On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls.
Did the monster subtract a number from all melee attack rolls? Yes.
Do you then add a number to all melee damage rolls? Yes.
I see two questions:
1) Does rend count as a melee damage roll? - Claw and bite attacks are considered melee weapons; I would certainly consider rend to also be a melee damage roll. (This is opinion; there's an argument to be made that rend, as a special ability, is not a melee attack. I don't find this argument compelling, but it's available.)
2) What multiple of the subtracted number should be added? - This one's more interesting:
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks) ....
It's a natural weapon attack, so the light weapon exception doesn't apply - some damage is added. I would rule it as a "one-handed weapon wielded in two hands", so I would add 2x the deduction. (This is also opinion. I don't know of anything dispositive in the text of the rules, however, so opinion is all I'm left with. Please let me know if you see something else.)
Does rend count as a melee damage roll? - Claw and bite attacks are considered melee weapons; I would certainly consider rend to also be a melee damage roll. (This is opinion; there's an argument to be made that rend, as a special ability, is not a melee attack. I don't find this argument compelling, but it's available.)
I agree that the argument is flimsy and not very compelling. That said, I have a strong inclination towards making this precise call. I think that this is more in line with the spirit of the ability; by virtue of the triggering conditions for a rend, you've already gotten your power attack bonus (twice, in fact); now you get to apply it again? To me, that seems wonky, to use the technical term.
I see the rend as a separate special ability with its own mechanic/formula, related to the primary attacks only insofar as it is triggered by and dependent on them (to calculate its own damage in the latter case).
All that being said, I can't really imagine what you would classify the rend as other than a melee damage roll. So, despite all the other mechanical maneuvers to separate it, the power attack would still apply. I'm confident that's not the spirit of the rule, but it does seem to be the letter of them (but maybe that's just me). So, choose which is more important to you and your group and go with it.
I'm with Saern
A rend has a specific mechanical formula which one uses to figure out how much damage it does. There essentially is no way to mechanically add power attack within the mechanic therefore power attack does not effect rend.
Again, IMHO, if there is no attack roll, there is no additional damage from power attack.
But rend typically doesn't work without 2 (count 'em, TWO) successful attack rolls--both claws (it's a different mechanic from grappling for some reason). By using power attack, a monster is reducing the chance for each attack to hit, and drastically reducing the chances of both of those attacks hitting-- and is thus greatly increasing the chance of losing the rend altogether. Applying power attack damage to the rend re-balances the ability; otherwise, critters that can rend should NEVER take Power Attack. If it still bothers you, use the 1x damage instead of the 2x, but by eliminating it altogether you nerf the rend and need to lower the monster's CR accordingly.
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If it still bothers you, use the 1x damage instead of the 2x, but by eliminating it altogether you nerf the rend and need to lower the monster's CR accordingly.
It doesn't bother me. I simply answered the OP by saying that I don't think applying Power Attack damage to Rend is supported by the rules. This is a DM's judgment call.
-Skeld
I'm with Saern
A rend has a specific mechanical formula which one uses to figure out how much damage it does. There essentially is no way to mechanically add power attack within the mechanic therefore power attack does not effect rend.
Except that it's inconsistently applied to the creatures that have it. I believe the Girallon and the Troll have different rend numbers. I think one seems to be 2xClaw+1.5Bonus, while the other is 2xClaw+2xBonus. Can't recall which is which off the top of my head.
But I could argue either side of the fence here. Certainly seems like a melee damage roll, but it's a Special Attack rather than a normal attack, so I would be tempted towards the latter. Creatures that can rend tend to be high-damage dealers anyway.
Creative Director
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Jumping in at the end without reading any of the posts before ('cause that's how I'm rollin' tonight!)...
I'd say that the rend damage shouldn't gain the benefits of Power Attack. Rend is already bad enough. More of my characters have died from rend damage than any other source, actually. It's bad news!
Just say no to rending!
I agree with Skeld !!
Rend is just an additional auto-damage if you hit with 2 attacks.
No attack roll means no damage boost from Power Attack !!
I still have to disagree with Dr. Jacobs on this one, for purely mathematical reasons.
Say a DM gives Targ the Troll the Power Attack feat (maybe in place of Alertness, making Targ more likely to be surprised and hence sneak attacked, but never mind that right now), but the DM does not apply the feat's effects to the rend damage. When adventurers invade his lair, Targ finds himself fighting a 5th level fighter (+1 full plate, large shield = AC 21); Targ needs a 12 to hit (claws +9 melee). So, attacking the fighter full-out, his chances of rending are 20% (.45 x .45). Now say he applies Power Attack for 5 points, adding an average of of +2.25 damage over 3 attacks (sum of +5 times the new hit probabilities). However, that -5 to attacks cuts his rend probability by more than five-fold (to 4%). Is an average of +2.25 damage a fair trade for all but eliminating your chances for an extra 2d6+9 damage? Mathematically speaking, it's a fairly bad deal (he loses an average of 2.56 points of rend damage per round this way, if my math is correct). Targ's DM is giving the PCs a nifty break--unless the rend also gets the extra damage.
On average, a creature with the rend ability actually LOWERS its damage output by using a decent power attack--unless its hit probability is way above the target's AC, or unless the rend gains extra damage as well. If anyone still doesn't believe me, go ahead and do the math for yourself.
EDIT: Targ can't actually use a 5-point Power Attack anyway; his BAB isn't high enough. But I have to get to work, so I can't run the numbers using a 4-point attack instead right now. Still, the basic point should be clear.
I still have to disagree with Dr. Jacobs on this one, for purely mathematical reasons.
Say a DM gives Targ the Troll the Power Attack feat (maybe in place of Alertness, making Targ more likely to be surprised and hence sneak attacked, but never mind that right now), but the DM does not apply the feat's effects to the rend damage. When adventurers invade his lair, Targ finds himself fighting a 5th level fighter (+1 full plate, large shield = AC 21); Targ needs a 12 to hit (claws +9 melee). So, attacking the fighter full-out, his chances of rending are 20% (.45 x .45). Now say he applies Power Attack for 5 points, adding an average of of +2.25 damage over 3 attacks (sum of +5 times the new hit probabilities). However, that -5 to attacks cuts his rend probability by more than five-fold (to 4%). Is an average of +2.25 damage a fair trade for all but eliminating your chances for an extra 2d6+9 damage? Mathematically speaking, it's a fairly bad deal (he loses an average of 2.56 points of rend damage per round this way, if my math is correct). Targ's DM is giving the PCs a nifty break--unless the rend also gets the extra damage.
On average, a creature with the rend ability actually LOWERS its damage output by using a decent power attack--unless its hit probability is way above the target's AC, or unless the rend gains extra damage as well. If anyone still doesn't believe me, go ahead and do the math for yourself.
EDIT: Targ can't actually use a 5-point Power Attack anyway; his BAB isn't high enough. But I have to get to work, so I can't run the numbers using a 4-point attack instead right now. Still, the basic point should be clear.
A level 5 fighter would have an average of 35 HP (14 CON). The poor level 5 wizard only 20. The rend damage alone (after two claws) would kill him, and a smaller AC to boot. Heck, the PA bonuses drop him to 0, the strength bonuses take care of the rest, the rolls are just for flavor.
Rend is a scary damage ability. Giving it a possible BABx2 bonus is worse.
I'm not letting rend get PA. My personal preference.
The rend damage alone (after two claws) would kill him, and a smaller AC to boot. Rend is a scary damage ability.
Yes, but it's one that the troll already has. The wizard will die from rend or power attack or normal attacks, but that's not true of the fighter. Power Attack doesn't add the rend ability; it just makes the rend a lot less likely.
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I'm rather certain that if a creature with rend gains a bonus to strength, then its' rend damage is also increased, even though it doesn't say anywhere in the rules that it should. Thematically, it makes sense that a rend attack which is derived from two power-attacks should do more damage than a regular rend attack, but the rules don't seem to support this. I checked the D&D FAQ, and was somewhat surprised to find that this question had never been addressed. Until then, I'll do without the extra damage. I don't want one of my players to complain that his character died because of some obscure ruling.
Back when we ran rend RAW, we added the PA damages, sicne it was melee damage. (We added it straight, so if you PA for 6, your rend got +6 damage, not +9 or +12 ehich I have seen DMs do, and understand, but don't like).
Nowadays if a creature gets a rend, we draw 2 Critical Hit cards, and apply any slashing effects other than straight HP damage. This is less likely to kill people (JJ is right about that!), but it makes rend a scarey ability, and makes combat with rending foes MUCh more interesting.
I'm with Saern
A rend has a specific mechanical formula which one uses to figure out how much damage it does. There essentially is no way to mechanically add power attack within the mechanic therefore power attack does not effect rend.
Except that it's inconsistently applied to the creatures that have it. I believe the Girallon and the Troll have different rend numbers. I think one seems to be 2xClaw+1.5Bonus, while the other is 2xClaw+2xBonus. Can't recall which is which off the top of my head.
But I could argue either side of the fence here. Certainly seems like a melee damage roll, but it's a Special Attack rather than a normal attack, so I would be tempted towards the latter. Creatures that can rend tend to be high-damage dealers anyway.
If a creature in the monster manual is using Rend then you follow the mechanic outlined in the creature. Otherwise you can add rend as a monster feat from the Dracanomicon and the rend feat outlines how to work out the rend damage. No example of rend includes power attack. The mechanic, as is, does not support power attack.
No surprise that the FAQ does not address this issue. The FAQ only addresses issues that are possible within the games mechanics not ones that we might house rule ourselves.
If a creature in the monster manual is using Rend then you follow the mechanic outlined in the creature. Otherwise you can add rend as a monster feat from the Dracanomicon and the rend feat outlines how to work out the rend damage. No example of rend includes power attack. The mechanic, as is, does not support power attack.No surprise that the FAQ does not address this issue. The FAQ only addresses issues that are possible within the games mechanics not ones that we might house rule ourselves.
I've always believed that one of 3E's strength was the exposing of these sorts of hidden mechanics so that they could be consistently applied and interpreted. Of course, WotC see things differently. I remember arguing vehemently that a creature that we were putting into the original Minions book shouldn't have the ability to act outside of its turn since that broke one of the core mechanics of 3E. And now we have Immediate Actions...
Ah well, best laid plans of the hobgoblins of little minds and all that.