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Hello Paizoites.
One of the goals of 4th edition has been to make the choice of race more important for characters. Along that line, WotC intends to grant abilities as PCs gain levels.
This is actually something I've been considering for a long time, and I've approached it from a few different directions. One that I think might work is taking the concept of a Gestalt Class, but apply it to a race instead. So, a Dwarf character simultaneously gains the features of a Dwarf and his normal class abilities. So, a character could be a Dwarf 10/Fighter 10, or a Dwarf 10/Fighter 5/Cleric 5, etc. The 'Dwarf levels' aren't real levels, but at various points they grant special abiltiies.
Now, granting extra abilities increases the power level of a game. I've used gestalt before. Ideally this will increase the power level, but less so than the regular gestalt options. Since I know that more heads are better for a game design perspective, and I fully trust that the members of this board can make this idea work better than the current staff of WotC designers I thought I would put it out and ask for a little help. To shorten the post I'll drop any fluff text and focus on just the abilities. I'll also explain a little of why I was thinking about that and a few of my concerns.
Unless otherwise noted, this abilities replace the abilities in the PHB. They are not in addition to.
Here we go:
Humans
+4 Skill Points/Level. Bonus feat at 1st, 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th level.
This is the baseline for power comparison. While this can certainly be adjusted downward, I like the idea of giving people something at every level. A human fighter would get something almost every level, including level 5... With this a human fighter would get 26 Feats, a human without any bonus feats from classes would gain 15.
Dwarf
+2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity
Darkvision 60'
Stonecunning
No speed penalty for encumbrance.
Weapon Familiarity
+2 Racial Bonus on Saving Throws
+2 Racial bonus on craft and appraise checks related to stone or metal.
Bonus Feats
2nd Endurance
5th Diehard
8th - Weapon Specialization. If already specialized, gains improved specialization. Not required to meet pre-reqs.
11th - Improved Toughness.
Damage Reduction
DR 1/- at 3rd level. +1 every 3 levels to a maximum of DR 6/- at 18th level.
I like the idea of Dwarves getting tougher as they get older.
Elf
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Constitution
Immune to Enchantments
Low-Light Vision
Weapon Proficiency (longsword, longbow, shortbow [and composites])
+2 Spot/Listen/Search. Detect secret doors within 5' as though actively searching.
Spellcasting
Elves gain the ability to cast spells from a restricted list dealing with the elements (probably thinking from the Wu-Jen list, and probably at 1/2 character level.
I took away rapier since if the elves are known for swordplay, I think they should have an iconic sword. I also gave them blanket immunity to enchantments because I decided I don't like the situational modifiers. I did the same thing with the Dwarf and a few others. I hate people asking 'Was that a spell' after asking for a saving throw. Even worse is when four rounds later someone realizes that their racial modifier would have made the save they originally told me they failed.
Gnome
+2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, -2 Strength
Small (attack, AC, hide)
+1 DC to all illusion spells
+4 Dodge bonus to AC
+2 Listen checks
Pass without trace (Su) self only
+4 racial bonus to hide checks (+8 in forest)
Speak with animals (su) at will as free action.
2nd Level - Animal Companion (as Druid of 1/2 character level)
Wild Empathy (as druid of half character level).
Spell Casting (probably thinking Illusionist w/ level = to half character level).
I wanted gnomes to be an attractive class for spell casters since they don't see much use in our games. Basically the elf would make a real good fighter/mage or wizard with some melee ability, but the gnome is great for a real defensive character. Combined some forest gnome/svirfneblin traits. No tinkers, these.
Halfling
+2 Dexterity, -2 Strength
Small (as Gnome)
+2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Move Silently
+1 Racial bonus on saving throws
+2 Racial bonus on listen checks.
Lucky 1/day a halfling can use an ability like the Luck Domain power. He gains one extra use at 5ht level and every 5 levels thereafter (to a maxium of 5 at 20th level)
I'm not real happy with this. I'm concerned the ability becomes too powerful with many uses per day. Also of concern, this doesn't seem as flavorful as the other races. Halflings just don't seem very 'interesting' to me, since they're basically just small humans. They don't have enough stereotypes to build abilites off of. That said, they were extremely 'lucky' in the JRR Tolkien books... So, it might be appropriate...
Half-Orc
+2 Strength, -2 Charisma
Darkvision 60ft
Orc Blood
DR (as Dwarf)
Rage - At 1st level the half-orc gains the ability to rage (as barbarian). He gains one extra use at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter (10th, 15th, 20th).
Half-orcs really suck as a race in the PHB. I'm concerned that additional rage abilities aren't very useful if the character is already a barbarian. Having the ability to rage 11/day doesn't make much sense, but perhaps with rage feats that would balance out. Maybe there are some rage fueled abilities I could add in to the mix to make sure they're comparable to other races. I took away the Int penalty. I think that compared to other races, it was simply unnecessarily cruel. Since the 3.5 PHB Dwarf has 'unbalanced ability adjustments' and is so much better than the half-orc, I figured I could give it that and it would be okay. In fact, I'm thinking it maybe should get a +4 Str like a true orc.
Thoughts, suggestions? Other races you'd like to work up? One advantage is that high ECL races can have abilities spread out a bit, and since these 'gestalt levels' incresae the 'ECL' of the character, more of them could be playable races easily.
I would suggest improved skill pluses on the halfling as it goes up, decrease the max uses of that luck ability to...3 maybe.
The rages for the Half-Orc could stack with the barbs, if they didn't already. I agree with the +4 str bonus.
My biggest suggestion is that, since a few races seem so keyed to specific classes, would be to focus more on that. The human would make an excellent fighter (aside from granting fast meta-magic feats to spell casters!!), as would the dwarf, and the half-orc would make a good barbarian.
What I like most about this is that with these changes, alot of ECLs for other races could be dropped, like for the Drow (unless you do the drow racial levels instead of taking everything at level one).
I'm sure myself and my co-DM can come up with more suggestions. In fact, I'm sure he'll be making his before to long.
I would suggest improved skill pluses on the halfling as it goes up, decrease the max uses of that luck ability to...3 maybe.
The rages for the Half-Orc could stack with the barbs, if they didn't already. I agree with the +4 str bonus.
My biggest suggestion is that, since a few races seem so keyed to specific classes, would be to focus more on that. The human would make an excellent fighter (aside from granting fast meta-magic feats to spell casters!!), as would the dwarf, and the half-orc would make a good barbarian.
What I like most about this is that with these changes, alot of ECLs for other races could be dropped, like for the Drow (unless you do the drow racial levels instead of taking everything at level one).
I'm sure myself and my co-DM can come up with more suggestions. In fact, I'm sure he'll be making his before to long.
After reading over several times, I do see something about the Gnome. I would drop the Speak with Animals, or atleast limit it's uses, and/or the animal companion, and/or the wild empathy, and/or the pass without trace. I would most deffinately drop the pass without trace, and any other combination of the three before. Why would one need wild empathy when they can talk to the animals? I doubt a gnome cluster would have as many animals as it does gnomes. I would instead add the animal companion as a sub-level to each class for the gnome, possibly along with wild empathy or speak with animals.
Apologies, but one thing I always ask when making a character, dungeon, or anything in DnD, is "why?". The second question is "how would that work?". Question number three is "is it logical?". Once things pass all three questions, I think they are good for insertion into my world. I have even added restrictions and bonus to certain classes simply because I thought they worked and didn't off-set the game to much.
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With gnomes I'm trying in part to reflavor them away from the tinker-gnome. They started out as a shy race that hides from other races relying on their illusion magic to keep them hidden to a race that builds tanks and airships and gadgets of all kinds. I don't want gnome gadgets, so tying abilities more strongly to nature makes a lot of sense to me.
The speak w/ animals ability doesn't actually allow you to improve their attitude. It doesn't say a diplomacy check is appropriate, so I felt like the combination of speak w/ animal and wild empathy makes sense. The idea of gnomes having a strong relationship to the natural world and being bound to animals I think is an important one. So, probably dropping the animal companion makes the most sense. The thing is the animal companion is the one ability that becomes more useful at higher levels.
The increased skills for the halflings definitely makes sense. They really do seem like 'humans-lite', though, and giving the same ability may strengthen that comparison.
Thank you for the input so far.
Regarding spell casting for the gnome/elf, I'm thinking of using the spell point variant from Unearthed Arcana. Do you think that for each race they should have a limited spell list, or instead cast spells as a caster of some fraction of their level (suggested 1/2).
With the half-orc I'm wondering if there is a point of diminishing returns on the rage ability. By the time you can rage 6/day (Barbarian) there may be no benefit to having the ability to rage another 5/day since 11 encounters per day is a lot. Any suggestions for an ability that 'channels' the orc anger into something useful?
Actually, I would agree with the extra uses of rage for the half-orc, but not so many. I know I enjoy dropping my PCs in battle after battle. You could, however, make the part based off of how the PC makes the character. Say they want there character to have grown up in human lands, they could instead gain feats (slower than the human). Or, if they grew up with orcs, they could rage (decrease the number of times per day, give the orc race same ability at a slightly increased rate?). They could instead get certain feats like power attack, cleave, and great cleave at certain levels (showing there bloodlust and brute strength, I would make sure that orcs get these benefits, too, possibly a couple more).
Actually, you could give such options to other races as well. The half-elf could get the feats (at the same rate as the half-orc) along with a couple other things that come with the territory, or get some (or all, at a decreased rate) of the elves abilities.
An elf could get the spell abilities granted by there race, or if they grew up studying more swordplay the could get certain feats like weapon finesse, combat relexes, and another or two that I can't think of off the top of my head. Since elves love both magic and swordplay, it would make sense.
Gnomes could get abilities similar to the druid, or more potent spell-casting abilities along the lines of an illusionist.
Halflings...could get the same options as half-breeds as far as feats go (at a decreased level) with some pure halfling abilities, or they could simply gain a few feats and increased skill bonus that deal with being sneaky and getting places they shouldn't.
I like the way the dwarf was done, and I'm kinda trying to make things similar (more to make sure things are even than anything). However, I like the idea of have more options during character creation.
Racial spells could go off their own list. Elves could get spells from the druid or ranger list, with some from other classes to spice it up, or get spells as a druid or ranger at a lower level. Gnomes could get spells from the druid list and illusion school.
Using Speak with Animals, one can effectively use diplomacy with the animal, since they are speaking with each other. If it's not in the books, that's my ruling. It makes sense.
No thanks necesarry. Seeing my input put to use in the books would be thanks enough. I've always wanted to do this. :P
I have to leave soon, so I have to cut myself short. I will, however, get back on as often as possible to give updated ideas. You're most welcome.
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Good thread. I like your basic idea.
Just a quick idea on your halflings. They seem to be lacking an identity that makes them unique, which is why they keep looking like little humans. Off the top of my head, here are a couple of (probably bad) ideas ...
-Halflings could become your new tinkers. It would fit with the small, nimble niche, plus it might work with rogue skills ... open locks, make little machines?
-Halflings could be river-folk. They could have bonuses to things like swimming, holding their breath, navigating, etc.
-Halflings could be descended from a slave-race captured and carried underground for centuries. One way they were able to escape was by developing a group mind, so all halflings are somewhat telepathically linked. Might even favor psionic classes if that's your thing.
It just seems like halflings have always lacked an identity and you're running into that. In my imagining, gnomes are still the tinkers (kind of a blend of dwarven craftsmanship and elven finesse) and it's halflings who live in burrow and chat with animals (prairie elves).
Anyway, a few random ideas.
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Thanks again for additional suggestions.
Regarding offering multiple paths, it is definitely something that I would consider in the future, but I suppose I want to focus on the 'default path' first. Basically, once the base race is done, I could allow 'racial substitution levels' just like we saw in Dragon magazine for the Ranger or Druid.
I'm particularly fond of the Dwarf myself. I think those abilities will be useful for basically any class. While it may work best for martial characters, the abilities certianly wouldn't get in the way for even the most 'allergic to battle' class you can think of.
While it is certainly logical that orcs would get the same abilities as half orcs (but moreso) I don't see myself following up on this initially. Basically, phase 1 would be to do all the 'normal' races, phase 2 would be the +0 ECL races (including Orcs and what have you) and phase 3 would be doing races with a higher ECL. It is quite probable that at some point I'll be testing the abilities of the half-orc against normal orcs (unmodified). For that reason and others, I'm using the following logic.
Half-orcs are basically human, but they tend to have violent emotions. Often this causes them problems, and many do flee human society and seek positions with the orcs whose temperament they identify with. Some though, manage to channel the rage and hate that wells up within them unbidden and focus it into superhuman feats.
Basically, orcs are 'always raging' so there is no need to give them a rage ability...
The only theme that I seem to keep on coming across with halflings is that they are lucky. I think the idea to give them Slippery Mind is an excellent suggestion. Evasion also as well (and if they get evasion from a class ability, they could get improved evasion instead).
I don't have many people in my games play 'small characters', so I definitely want to make them more attractive.
Regarding elves, I've been thinking about the spells that they should cast as 'racial abilities'. Since elves traditionally have a strong tradition as wizard, on the one hand it would make sense to make these spells available as wizard spells (something that can be learned). But if that is the case, they could learn almost any wizard spell. Does it make sense to have a 'special list' that is only useable by elves if they prepare and cast as normal wizards (using the spell point variant)? Or would it be better to tie their spell casting more strongly to the natural world and make it a form of 'divine casting'? Then a restricted list would make more sense but it loses the 'connection' elves have to traditional wizardry.
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Regardingn elves, I'm thinking of giving them the following spells. Their spell progression will be as Bard, but I'll use spell points in my own game.
0-Level
Create Water
Cure Minor Wounds
Dancing Lights
Detect Magic
Flare
Guidance
Know Direction
Light
Message
Naturewatch*
Read Magic
Resistance
1st Level
Accelerated Movement*
Animate Water*
Animate Wood*
Arrow Mind*
Calm Animals
Camouflage*
Charm Animal
Cure Light Wounds
Deep Breath*
Delay Disease*
Detect Animals or Plants
Endure Elements
Entangle
Feather Fall
Faerie Fire
Guided Shot*
Healthful Rest*
Identify
Longstrider
Magic Weapon
Obscuring Mist
Pass without Trace
Speak with Animals
Surefooted Stride*
True Strike
Updraft*
Unseen Servant
Wood Wose*
2nd Level
Animal Messenger
Aura Against Flame*
Binding Winds*
Bladeweave*
Briar Web*
Cloud Burst CD
Continual Flame
Delay Poison
Easy Trail*
Fog Cloud
Glitterdust
Gust of Wind
Levitate
Protection from Negative Energy*
Pyrotechnics
Resist Energy
Restoration, Lesser
Stabilize*
Warp Wood
Whispering Wind
Wood Shape
3rd Level
Arcane Sight
Capricious Zephyr*
Cure Moderate Wounds
Daylight
Dispel Magic
Glowing Orb*
Locate Object
Magic Weapon, Greater
Obscure Object
Plant Growth
Protection from Energy
Quench
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Disease
Searing Light
Sleet Storm
Speak with Plants
Wall of Light*
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Wind Wall
4th Level
Air Walk
Control Water
Cure Serious Wounds
Death Ward
Dispelling Screen*
Divination
Freedom of Movement
Lay of the Land*
Locate Creature
Neutralize Poison
Remove Curse
Restoration
Rushing Waters*
Sheltered Vitality*
Sirene’s Grace*
Solid Fog
Stone Shape
Wall of Water*
5th Level
Awaken
Break Enchantment
Commune with Nature
Control Winds
Cure Critical Wounds
Dance of the Unicorn*
Fireward*
Life’s Grace*
Scrying
Spell Resistance
Tree Stride
Wall of Dispel Magic*
Wall of Thorns
Wind Tunnel*
6th Level
Analyze Dweomer
Antimagic Field
Blood Sirocco*
Control Weather
Cure Light Wounds, Mass
Dispel Magic, Greater
Energy Immunity*
Ironwood
Legend Lore
Liveoak
Move Earth
Nixie’s Grace*
Phantasmal Disorientation*
Ray of Light*
Repel Wood
Stone Tell
Tidal Surge*
Transport Via Plants
True Seeing
Wall of Stone
Wind Walk
Suggestions for additions, subtractions, substitutions, etc?