I am devoting this thread to a wonderful idea brought up on another thread by Dungeon Grrrl. If there are to be Ninja in Pathfinder/Golarion, then what sort of Ninja shall they be? Rogues in black pajamas? Or will they be a new OGL class with their own specific talents and abilities.
I'd like to hear your feedback everyone. Please no "NO NINJA!" shout-outs. This is not a discussion about whether Ninja should or should not be in Golarion. This is a discussion thread about what kind of ninja should be in Golarion. Subtle difference, I know.
To start off, I'd like to mention that I've seen a few interesting Ninja classes since 3rd Edition has come out. One of them being the one most are familiar with, the Ninja base class from the Complete Adventurer.
This class has Mid-BAB and Ninja-Ki powers as its hallmark. And Sudden Strike. The monk-like AC bonus is nice too.
There is another Ninja class out there though that doesn't get as much attention. The Ninja base class from the Rokugan (OA) Campaign Setting.
This class has Fighter BAB, no armor, Sneak Attack and an improved Dodge +1-+5 over time.
Basically one is a better sneak, the other a much better fighter (excepting that one will get hit more often).
Thoughts? Other ideas, options?
Perhaps we all here on this board might even do something constructive, like let the folks at Paizo know what we think Ninja should be and perhaps even give them some ideas to work from should they decide to make an OGL Ninja class.
Creative Director
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I am devoting this thread to a wonderful idea brought up on another thread by Dungeon Grrrl. If there are to be Ninja in Pathfinder/Golarion, then what sort of Ninja shall they be? Rogues in black pajamas? Or will they be a new OGL class with their own specific talents and abilities.
I'd like to hear your feedback everyone. Please no "NO NINJA!" shout-outs. This is not a discussion about whether Ninja should or should not be in Golarion. This is a discussion thread about what kind of ninja should be in Golarion. Subtle difference, I know.
At this point, I'd probably make a ninja a multiclassed monk/rogue.
At this point, I'd probably make a ninja a multiclassed monk/rogue.I am devoting this thread to a wonderful idea brought up on another thread by Dungeon Grrrl. If there are to be Ninja in Pathfinder/Golarion, then what sort of Ninja shall they be? Rogues in black pajamas? Or will they be a new OGL class with their own specific talents and abilities.
I'd like to hear your feedback everyone. Please no "NO NINJA!" shout-outs. This is not a discussion about whether Ninja should or should not be in Golarion. This is a discussion thread about what kind of ninja should be in Golarion. Subtle difference, I know.
Mike might call that blasphemy.
Gnome Airborne Ranger/Pathfinders that HALO jump out of airships?
Hmm...leave it to Heathy. And yes...Mog is following you. Kupo!
At this point, I'd probably make a ninja a multiclassed monk/rogue.Mike might call that blasphemy.
Well, the Complete Adventurer version was rogue, plus monk, minus all the suck you'd have if you actually rolled a monk/rogue. (And, thanks in no small part to the efforts of Mr. McArtor, a ninja/monk is exceedingly badass.)
Speaking of ninja classes, I seem to recall that one of the 3.0 splatbook ninja prestige classes had a fantastic ability I haven't seen since. If memory serves, the ninja was taking 10 on Hide and Move Silently checks at all times, unless he specifically said otherwise. I just loved that idea, and I don't think it's ever shown up again.
Or you could have a whisper gnome ninja with the Extra Silence feat and a flippin' Horn of Fog - AUGH!!! Oh wait, that's just my nightmare.
Don't forget Silencing Strike.
At this point, I'd probably make a ninja a multiclassed monk/rogue.Mike might call that blasphemy.
Well, the Complete Adventurer version was rogue, plus monk, minus all the suck you'd have if you actually rolled a monk/rogue. (And, thanks in no small part to the efforts of Mr. McArtor, a ninja/monk is exceedingly badass.)
Speaking of ninja classes, I seem to recall that one of the 3.0 splatbook ninja prestige classes had a fantastic ability I haven't seen since. If memory serves, the ninja was taking 10 on Hide and Move Silently checks at all times, unless he specifically said otherwise. I just loved that idea, and I don't think it's ever shown up again.
Yes, I remember seeing that one too. I can't remember if it was one of the OA prestige classes like Shadow Scout or one of the others though. There were some cool abilities in the Ninja of the Crescent Moon (from Sword and Fist 3.0) which most were converted into the CAdv Ninja, but some didn't make it that were nice. Not talking about the Kuji-kiri either...that was just way too Naruto with the hand-signs and all.
A D&D style conversion of the Inflitrator Prestige class from the Star Wars Hero's Guide wouldn't be bad at all either. Hide and move Silently, while running? Then again, I think the 'Dread Commando' from Miniatures or HOB does the same, perhaps not. I'll have to look.
An Infiltrator would be awesome though. FYI, I played that Infiltrator in a long running SW game...one of the most fun SW characters I have ever played. Not a jedi or anything...basically a SW ninja. It was awesome.
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I think there should be 2 Ninja classes, one that specializes in infiltration and one that specializes in assassinations. The infiltration expert would be modeled after a monk/rogue/beguiler mix and have a decent BAB progression, whereas the assassin ninja would have full BAB, some Sneak attack ability, stunning blows,and less skill pts than the infiltrator. More based on a Ranger/rogue/monk, possibly with some favored enemies or some such.
Just tossing ideas.
FH
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I think there should be 2 Ninja classes, one that specializes in infiltration and one that specializes in assassinations. The infiltration expert would be modeled after a monk/rogue/beguiler mix and have a decent BAB progression, whereas the assassin ninja would have full BAB, some Sneak attack ability, stunning blows,and less skill pts than the infiltrator. More based on a Ranger/rogue/monk, possibly with some favored enemies or some such.
Just tossing ideas.
FH
Good idea, maybe it could be like the Ranger, and the ninja chooses their training route (like how Rangers choose TWF or ranged combat).
Thanks Fakey. Ideas is exactly what this thread is for. Good shot with that too Eyebite.
We need our Ninja overlord since you are cruising the boards right now...
You, Sir, get a cookie. ^_^(And, thanks in no small part to the efforts of Mr. McArtor, a ninja/monk is exceedingly badass.)
And there he is!
Yes, I remember seeing that one too. I can't remember if it was one of the OA prestige classes like Shadow Scout or one of the others though. There were some cool abilities in the Ninja of the Crescent Moon (from Sword and Fist 3.0) which most were converted into the CAdv Ninja, but some didn't make it that were nice. Not talking about the Kuji-kiri either...that was just way too Naruto with the hand-signs and all.
...Dragon 342, page 84, "The Art of Kuji-in".
You, Sir, get a cookie. ^_^
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Off topic, but in the same vein, if there are ninja, there must also be Samurai. (I'm really looking forward to future information on Minkai and the surrounding lands).
Complete Warrior's Samurai readily blows. If/when Paizo puts out a ninja design, here's to hoping we get designs for other oriental classes as well.
Complete Warrior's Samurai readily blows. If/when Paizo puts out a ninja design, here's to hoping we get designs for other oriental classes as well.
Eyebite raises another good question...Minkai and samurai.
The complete Warrior samurai has the problem of focusing on two-weapon fighting, when Rangers do it better. Historically Samurai rarely fought with two weapons. Musashi Miyamoto was the inventor of a two-weapon samurai style and even then it was rare. Do bear in mind that Musashi was one of the best duelists in Japanese history, some say the best period.
I might just have to design it myself after all this....damn, more work.
Keep the ideas coming folks.
I might just have to sit down and create a variable class, as Eyebite described. That way a Ninja isn't stuck as a one-trick pony. One of the problems I have with the CAdv ninja and the Rokugan Ninja is their extremely narrow focus.
The CAdv Ninja can sneak, but really isn't the best assassin.
The Rokugan Ninja is a great killer, but isn't mysterious in the least.
Might I get in a word? This is an unpopular sentiment I know, but I think it needs saying. Classes should be non-culture specific. Nothing stinks so much as having loads and loads classes, but because of your race and region you can only pick three of them. Yuck.
Now I like the idea of a ninja--but I think it should be handled very much like other "culturally specific" classes--the barbarian, the druid, the paladin. Nobody freaks out if the paladin isn't french or if the druid isn't celtic or if the barbarian isn't germanic. Why? Because it's a fantasy setting and while the flavor is drawn from real sources, it's broadened and extended to every culture. That's why people can wear armor and use weapons that in our world stem from totally different regions and eras centuries apart. But flavor is what's important. Strange people see that everywhere but with asian stuff. You have a drow ninja with a crossbow and people want to die. You have a drow druid with a crossbow and no one bats an eye.
Part of why I really like the Complete book takes on samurai, ninjas and all, is that in changing them from the "japanese" samurai or ninja they become something that you can use in a fantasy game--because the are different. They should be. Honestly real druids don't turn into seagulls. Does that make the druid a bad class?
So yeah I like the idea of a ninja, but it'd be nice to see it be a whole setting thing--not a "you can be this, but only if you're from Minkai thing".
If there is something that is that specific to a region or a race, then it really should be a Prestige Class. The requirements should be next to nil to get it--just that you come from the right place and are part of the right organization. But I'd prefer to keep the classes something that anyone can play.
But flavor is what's important. You have a drow ninja with a crossbow and people want to die. You have a drow druid with a crossbow and no one bats an eye.
Part of why I really like the Complete book takes on samurai, ninjas and all, is that in changing them from the "japanese" samurai or ninja they become something that you can use in a fantasy game--because the are different.
So yeah I like the idea of a ninja, but it'd be nice to see it be a whole setting thing--not a "you can be this, but only if you're from Minkai thing".
Okay. Grimcleaver raises a fair point, even I am guilty of thinking...Minkai!
So then, the course is this, what roll should a ninja play?
Is it an Assassin-like base class?
Rogues have a wide gamut already covered on the plain sneaky type or spy-type. This doesn't mean a ninja wouldn't be able to be a spy, but that most likely won't be their specialty.
Ninja is a base class. If anything, it should have multiclassing restrictions. They run fast without moving their arms, they do crazy wuxia s~%$ with running up walls and stuff, they have crazy eyes, they totally flip out and kill people... I'm honestly not sure what people find so difficult about this.
*tumbles into the thread, making sure the boss is safe*
Silent Spell, if you're looking for the mystic ninja class. Iaijutsu Focus skill from Oriental Adventures. The full ninja class from Rokugan is worth looking at.
midnight assassins, guys who mix a little magic and a little fighting with a lot of stealth and assassination, are a good base class. I'd love to see one.
Ninja, a culturrally specific asian glavored assassin, is a prestige class. Ninja classically had to have other jobs as well, and train as ninja on the side. They should be a PrC, tacked on to any combination of roles that can meet the prerequisites.
I'd love for Mikey to make one of each for us, along with samurai and other asian classes.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd say if you were looking for a mystic assasssin class (i.e. a non-pseudoasian 'ninja') start with the bard.
average BAB, Good Reflex and Will saves, limited spell casting up to 6th level, 6 sp/level, cha based casting. Remove bardic music abilities, replace with evasion/uncanny dodge, poison use, stunted sneak attack. Rearrange skills and spell lists to taste.
I'd like to see them as an organization of strict heirarchy according to family lines--fearless and utterly loyal as a rule, because if they aren't your family all come after you and kill you in the ugliest way possible. Their main focus is stealth--but their jobs range from silent catburglery to assassination. They're known for making their own tools and are like the Inspector Gadgets of death. They get Silent Spell pretty early in their progression, and can use a handful of spells like Spider Climb, Knock and Silence but are spontaneous casters like Sorcerers. They prepare their magic by studying mystic koans rather than spellbooks--designed to free their minds so they can grasp spellcasting intuitively rather than by route.
That said, there's as many ninja clans in Riddleport as there are in Minkai and a ninja is as likely to be that lovely Varisian lady with the come-hither stare as the cute gnome tomboy kicking her legs from her position sitting on a second story veranda.
That's the thing with ninjas. You never know who they are.
midnight assassins, guys who mix a little magic and a little fighting with a lot of stealth and assassination, are a good base class. I'd love to see one.Ninja, a culturrally specific asian glavored assassin, is a prestige class. Ninja classically had to have other jobs as well, and train as ninja on the side. They should be a PrC, tacked on to any combination of roles that can meet the prerequisites.
I'd love for Mikey to make one of each for us, along with samurai and other asian classes.
The Ninja Spy PrC from the OA book, with some updating, is exactly what all the stories of a ninja in Japan was pretty much. Nothing really mystical about it, but if the baseline Ninja class has some low-level spell casting ability it might work as a further specialization on the Spy/Assassin aspect of it.
The original 1st edition Assassin was a base class...perhaps a retooling that simply rids the game of the PrC version of the Assassin?
The ideas are getting there guys.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I'd like to see them as an organization of strict heirarchy according to family lines--fearless and utterly loyal as a rule, because if they aren't your family all come after you and kill you in the ugliest way possible.
I agree. A clan/family based structure would be awesome. Maybe, they could even be divided up among "styles" or "houses" as well - groupings of families common to a region that practice a specific set of well-guarded techniques.
I'd say if you were looking for a mystic assasssin class (i.e. a non-pseudoasian 'ninja') start with the bard.
average BAB, Good Reflex and Will saves, limited spell casting up to 6th level, 6 sp/level, cha based casting. Remove bardic music abilities, replace with evasion/uncanny dodge, poison use, stunted sneak attack. Rearrange skills and spell lists to taste.
Possibly so, but I think I would start with the Rokugan Ninja class, and begin making changes there instead. The Ninja, or Assassin base class, is a fighting class, more so than a Bard or Rogue for certain.
I'd like to see them as an organization of strict heirarchy according to family lines--fearless and utterly loyal as a rule, because if they aren't your family all come after you and kill you in the ugliest way possible.
I agree. A clan/family based structure would be awesome. Maybe, they could even be divided up among "styles" or "houses" as well - groupings of families common to a region that practice a specific set of well-guarded techniques.
Doing yet more idea theft, perhaps a few Clan/Family Secret Abilities at higher level, reminiscent of the Rogues 'Special Ability' picks but devoted more to dealing death in certain fashions.
Interesting.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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As an example, in my homebrew campaign, I once had a clan of swordsmen/ninja that practiced "The Falling Leaf" sword style.
The head of the clan was one who could master the "Floating Autumn Leaf" cut - basically a fancy way of using Power Attack and Cleave together. The killing blow was delivered as a diagonal slice from the shoulder blade to the opposite hip, neatly cutting the opponent in two. As purely fluff, the cut was so perfect that the opponent didn't know they were dead for a few seconds, until they heard the wind rustling through their body (as it then slid into two pieces).
The Falling Leaf Style was practiced by 4 families - one head family that was treated like royalty (and the clan heads were always picked from the main branch family) and the other 3 lesser houses were basically minions (cousins of the main branch family), constantly looking to advance their family's standing within the clan. Thus, 4 families comprised the Falling Leaf Clan.
Ocassionally, outsiders came into the clan if they married in or were adopted, so some slight variation was possible.
Lets start figuring this out, what is the consensus
BAB? Avg or Good?
Saves: Good Fort and Ref or Ref and Will or just Ref?
Skills: 6+ seems most appropriate, but please chime in.
Abilites Include:
-Poison Use
-Sneak Attack (No crummy Sudden Strike): Reduced progression compared to Rogue, up to +5d6 perhaps.
-Restricted Spells, not likely exceeding that of the Assassin PrC Chime in here if you think differently to.
-Family/Clan Specials: Higher level Abilites chosen from select lists available only to those trained in a specific tradition.
-Covert Movement (ability to Hide and MS while moving, first at Full, then at Charge, then at Run, progressive over 20 levels).
-Speed of Darkness (from Rokugan Ninja): +Int Mod. to initiative.
-Death Attack (following all the normal 20 level class usages)Maybe gain first usage at 5th or so level.
-Trapfinding (pretty much have to have this to be a good infiltrator)
Optional Inclusions:
-Monk-like bonus to AC (as seen in the Complete Adv. Ninja): I'm inclined to not include this, but chime in.
-Rokugan Ninja Shadow Run (speed bonus = Con modifier x5) or do regular Fast movement.
-Ambush: With Suprise, the Assassin adds their Int. modifier to their first attack. (Slightly alter and taken from Infiltrator PrC from SW)
Definate Outs:
-CAdv. Ki powers, easily accomplished by spells instead.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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BAB: I like Good for now, might need to knock it down later.
Saves: Ref and Will only, adding Fort is too much (and seems out of place).
Maybe we can knock down skills to 4+ (going for balance, 6+ seems like too much.)
I like the monk AC bonus - and I wouldn't allow them to be proficient with armor. I would give them regular fast movement as well. I think Ambush might be overkill with the sneak attack.
Everything else looks good, but we'd need to see it altogether to make sure it's balanced.
I might ditch Speed of Darkness too, but YMMV.
Finally, just a thought, but the spells could be tied to the specific family or style. (Thus, different ninjas would have different spells available for use.)
Hit Dice: d6
Weapon/Armor: Either:Simple Weapons and 2 Martial weapons of choice or
if using Weapon Groups: Basic Weapons + 2 groups.
Armor: None.
Skill Points: 6+int mod. (6+int mod. x4 at first level)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Local, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope.
BAB: Good, as Fighter
Saves: Good Reflex, Poor Fortitude and Will
1: Poison Use, Unarmed Strike (1d6), Insightful Defense (Like a Monk), Trapfinding.
2: Sneak Attack +1d6
3: Uncanny Dodge
4: Fast Movement +10ft.
5: Covert Movement (Full-Move)
6: Evasion, Sneak Attack +2d6, Unarmed Strike (1d8)
7: Death Attack (3 rounds study, Fort DC = 1/2 Class level + Int mod.)
8: Insightful Defense +1
9: Tradition Secret
10: Sneak Attack +3d6
11: Covert Movement (Charge)
12: Tradition Secret, Improved Uncanny Dodge
13: Unarmed Strike (1d10)
14: Sneak Attack +4d6, Improved Evasion
15: Hide in Plain sight, Tradition Secret
16: Insightful Defense +2
17: Covert Movement (Run)
18: Sneak Attack +5d6, Tradition Secret
19:
20: Unarmed Strike (2d6), Impromptu Death Attack 1/day
Citique please folks.
Good Will saves just didn't make sense as I did it, neither did good Fort saves. Better for balance anyway.
Not sure if there should be any bonus feats or not. Maybe a Family secret at earlier level. Not sure. Feedback first.
Just to offer another opinion, if I were to stat up a OGL compatible ninja, and not turn to home brew, I'd go with a gish, either a Battle Sorcerer variant for the caster class, with dips into rogue and fighter or something like a rogue 4/fighter 1/ Assassin 10/ ED.
Magic spells (fog cloud, true strike, improved invisibility, deeper darkenss, disguise self, nondetection) can accomplish much of the iconic ninja powers fairly well.
After thinking about it a bit, I guess I'm more interested in something that would lean more towards Hashshashin/Batini than Ninja.
Bear in mind, after much consideration, this class is being designed more as an Assassin base class. Not a straight Ninja. Certainly it could work for a Ninja perfectly. That was kinda the point.
As for Hashshashin, that theme is relatively more difficult to impliment. The discussion has turned away from a culturally specific type of class for a more customizable base class, which is why I did it. I also remember liking the Assassin base class from 1st edition. Certainly more than I like the PrC in the DMG now.
While the Battle Sorcerer idea is nice, I'd rather not build that as an Assassin. The theme of having any sorcerer spells available is too wide. I was looking for something that filled a specific niche.
Tradition Secret will be the class feature that functions similar to the Rogue's Special Ability.
Each Tradition, be it Assassin's guild, Ninja Clan, etc. will have specific abilities and feat that they can choose.
Spell list will likely Follow the Ranger/Paladin spell acquisition charts.
Int-based memorization.
Alignment: Any non-good. Even a LN character can be part of an Assassin's organization provided they believe it is for the greater order, etc.
As the maximum spell level is still 4th. The current Assassin spell list will work. Or we can try and create substitutions for specific traditions. There has already been a call for this, so we'll see.
Assassin Base Class, Revision 1
Hit Dice: d6
Weapon/Armor: Either:Simple Weapons and 2 Martial weapons of choice or
if using Weapon Groups: Basic Weapons + 2 groups.
Armor: None.
Skill Points: 6+int mod. (6+int mod. x4 at first level)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Local, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope.
BAB: Good, as Fighter
Saves: Good Reflex, Poor Fortitude and Will
1: Sneak Attack +1d6, AC Bonus (Monk), Trapfinding.
2: Unarmed Strike (1d6)
3: Uncanny Dodge, Poison Use.
4: Fast Movement +10ft.
5: Rapid Stalking (Full-Move)
6: Evasion, Sneak Attack +2d6
7: Death Attack (3 rounds study, Fort DC = 1/2 Class level + Int mod.)
8: AC Bonus +1
9: Unarmed Strike (1d8)
10: Sneak Attack +3d6
11: Rapid Stalking (Charge), Tradition Secret
12: Improved Uncanny Dodge
13: Unarmed Strike (1d10)
14: Sneak Attack +4d6, Improved Evasion
15: Hide in Plain sight, Tradition Secret
16: AC Bonus +2
17: Rapid Stalking (Run)
18: Sneak Attack +5d6,
19: Tradition Secret
20: Unarmed Strike (2d6), Impromptu Death Attack 1/day
Spells: Progression as a Paladin/Ranger. Spells drawn from Assassin List. Int based casting. Memorization type. There may be room to do Spell lists specific to Traditions, I'm not sure yet.
Unless there is additional criticism, I am going to start fleshing out the Features.
Rapid Stalking allows you to Hide and MS while moving and isn't WotCs IP.
Impromptu Death Attack functions just like an Arcane Tricksters Impromptu Sneak Attack, but is a Death Attack instead. Hence only 1/day at 20th.
Tradition Secrets will start coming soon.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Unless there is additional criticism, I am going to start fleshing out the Features.
Rapid Stalking allows you to Hide and MS while moving and isn't WotCs IP.
Impromptu Death Attack functions just like an Arcane Tricksters Impromptu Sneak Attack, but is a Death Attack instead. Hence only 1/day at 20th.
Tradition Secrets will start coming soon.
It needs something at 9th level
Maybe a small benefit - like another 10 foot fast movement speed bump.
EDIT: Maybe even allow Tradition Secret at 9th level too. 11th seems too long to wait.
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Director of Narrative
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Yasha, to add to our conversation earlier, I think that you should swap the sneak attack bonus gained at 10th with the Tradition gained at 11th. I think that it should be gained at the same level a rogue would gain the special abilities. It also would make your sneak attack progression more even.