I am currently running the Savage Tide AP, and my players are starting to relize that they are going to be stuck in the hicks for a a while. Thier issue is, how can they sell the loot they get, and get better stuff. WHile I am doing some constructive treasure, including a few Weapons of Legacy, there just isnt enough leway to give them all the things that a party of thier level woudl want and have. I was thinking, well, they could sail to Scuttlecove only 2 weeks sail away, but then, at this point, they may not ICly know that the place exists, and even if they do, its not realy a palce they want to be at this point I think.
So I have come up with a bit of a conundrum. Anyone have any suggestions on this problem?
Realizing that our group would be stuck on an Isle deep within the southern ocean for quite some while we got us a cohort wizard through the leadership feat (we were lacking in the arcane department anyway - and the GM let us do the groundwork for it, sicne the characters weren't quite up to level 6 yet. ) who was going to (actually is by now) taking the item creation feats, mostly "wondrous Items" and "arms and armour".
Since we play with a variant rule allowing the xp cost of item to come from another willing being (usually the character the item gets made for ) this has provided us with some means for getting custom made stuff in Farshore without the wizard going bonkers hemoragging XP.
And yes, we invested quite a bit of money in that wizard's spellbook, so we had a good selection of spells required for item creation later on.
We also debated taking out a loan, with the Sea Wyvern as a security (it is worth app. 10k after all ), but ultimately decided against it. This might provide players with a sizable account of cash to buy stuff with early on. Same goes for a loan from one of the merchant houses or the associations.
Then again, we rarely deal with "magic shops" ingame, since they truly hurt the "suspension of disbelief", handling it through a different system of acquisition.
But IMHO, having to "deal" with the stuff at hand - rather than the stuff one would tactically buy from "magics-R-us" - is one of the joys of the game. YMMV
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One strategy is to find out what kind of treasure the PC's are hoping for and modify the treasure they find - not necessarily to be a perfect match, but much closer. The bat god cave in Tides of Dread is a perfect example (even though the treasure there is already pretty good for almost any class).
For PC's that want to craft, I would allow the use of assets in Farshore on a per week basis, meaning 9600gp in assets can be used per week to craft (I believe it's 1000gp per day anyway, so one PC could craft any item they like this way). It would occupy a PC for some time to get a good item, but it's an option. It would be best to attempt this crafting during Tides of Dread after they have finished recruiting the phanatons and Olmans, and found the rakasta stash.
If they REALLY want to go to a city, access to the Teleport spell could give them that option. If they have a pure arcane caster, it's available at 9th or 10th level.
I echo Pygon's points above.
Access to the "teleport" spell would only provide access to a city (aka Sasserine ) if some previous planning has occured, since the straight-line distance "Sasserine - Farshore" is way in access of 1200 miles on my map. At 100miles/level maximum range, that would put off teleporting home for at until at least level 13.
Or teleporting into half-remembered places the group visited on the trip south to the Isle and risk mishaps from erroneous memories. "Seen once" or "seen casually" should be the appropriate categories for use of the teleport table - hence a 11% or 24% chance of arriving "off-target"
This would be one of the reason why our mage is doing careful drawings of all the quaint locations the characters visited, to jog later recollection. I am pretty strict about "teleporting" to places only passed through once or twice, and so is every GM I know. YMMV.
Teleport isn't that great, however, as there aren't any cities in 1-hop range, and its unlikely the PCs have been to the areas in between before. What they need is Greater Teleport. But that's impossible at that level... unless you have planar binding.
HTbM Spoilers:
Teleport isn't that great, however, as there aren't any cities in 1-hop range, and its unlikely the PCs have been to the areas in between before. What they need is Greater Teleport. But that's impossible at that level... unless you have planar binding.
HTbM Spoilers:** spoiler omitted **
well Renkrue island and the ruins of Tamoachan come to mind as "stopovers". IF the characters visited them, and the GM can be persuaded as to the degree of accurate memory.
There used to be a thread about travel back and forth on this forum in summer - including some thoughts on Shadow Walk, Wind Walk and some borderline-demented transport via air-elemental express or dragon ( I think the poster boosted the dragon to three times the usual airspeed through buffs and ruls options ). "Express Dragon Mail" took about 2-3 days and was possible at level 12 for a small sized character, IIRC.
I think part of the concept of the Savage Tide adventure path was minimizing the ability to trade money for stuff. However, by the time the PCs are 9th or 10th level, and assuming they feel they can spare the time, teleporting back to Sasserine (via Renkrue) should be allowable with no real problems.
Basically, it's up to the DM running the game - if you want them to be able to teleport back to Sasserine, then a two-step hop via Renkrue is possible. If you don't want them to buy and sell stuff, but to be stuck with what they've got, then don't let them remember Renkrue well enough.
By my reading of the RAW, Renkrue should fall into "seen casually" at worst - the PCs wandered around, interacted with folks, and so forth, during their layover there. "Seen once" would be more like a single room somewhere that they passed through once - the main "market" or dock area of the village they'd have seen more than that. And you can always say that the wizard who wants to do the teleport happens to remember a distinctive rock formation or something, if you feel it necessary to justify it more than that.
It's entirely up to you-as-DM to hand-waive away the problems if they reduce the fun, or increase the problems if you don't want something to be easy. Just decide what you want your group to be able to do, and then go with it.
It bugs me that in third edition PCs think it is their right to just be able to pick up whatever magic they want and sell off what they want whenever they want, just because there happens to be prices for magical items. Savage Tide is great because they can't do that. They have to suck it up and work with the resources they have.
My PCs pretty much had to store all the loot they wanted to sell off in Farshore until after Tides of Dread, only then did they have access to the magic they needed to start teleporting to cities in the North where they could sell off items and commission new items.
My houserules don't allow for that. Magical items are presented as being rare treasures which the pcs get because they brave really strange hostile places.
Regarding teleport: I think that unless the pcs KNOW of a guaranteed safe place that it would be risky as well. I mean possibly there might be Lavinia's manor--maybe someone might have the foresight to request that she designate a room for that kind of purpose.
As for teleport "Knowing a place you have been say, two months ago ? In the middle of a long, drawn out journey presenting you with new sights every day ? pleeease - if you have ever travelled for an extended period of time, and are asked several weeks later to exactly reproduce a place in your mind, precisely enough down to the details ?
Now do the same for your home, an old friends place or a favourite spot you pass by every few days.... To me - and I hve a very graphically oriented memory - that is a big difference.
After going through the finale of SWW, HtbM and probably ToD, to acurately reproduce a precise image of Renku, Tamoachan or wherever should be pretty difiicult. Simply because memories change over time - nothing is as fun as asking diffferent people who have witnessed the same event or place to give you their description, independent of each other. Usually you get vast differences - often even contradictory ones.
as for "buying" magic items - pretty childish idea that. Although I am actually usingmagical trading guilds (say the Red Wizards of Thay), each and everyone has their foibles or limitations or both. And of course, popular items (such as STR-boosting equipment) has a much higher selling price then say a Lens of Detection or a cloak of the Manta Ray. Funny liitle RL mechanism called supply and demand. Do the characters still want to buy the gauntlets of Ogre Strength at three times the price ? or even four times - there is a hgh demand for them at the moment with all these wars going on in the southwest.... yeah those goblin-sized magical chainshirts are cheap. Of course they look ugly and you actually have to be a goblin to fit in well enough...
My houserules don't allow for that. Magical items are presented as being rare treasures which the pcs get because they brave really strange hostile places.
I much prefer this approach from a world-building perspective, but practically speaking it's a little problematic at high levels. Published adventures (particularly Paizo's, which tend to be at the higher end of the difficulty curve) pretty much assume the PCs have optimal gear for their level - stat boosting items for primary attributes, magic weapons and armour of significant 'plusses', cloaks of resistance, rings of free action/evasion, amulets of natural armour, boots of speed, etc. I find it much more interesting handing out stuff like ropes of climbing, cloaks of arachnidia, and immovable rods, but all the fun quirky stuff simply isn't going to help at high levels when brute numbers are everything and DC30+ save-or-wish-you-had effects seemingly come along multiple times every round.
Basically, unless you're going to be handing out these items as treasure all over the place, you're going to be making it much, much harder on your players if you don't allow them to buy their own items. Not all magic items are created equal - the STAP will chew up and spit out a PC with 1000000gp worth of high-end miscellaneous items like rings of elemental command and helms of brilliance and chaos diamonds unless they have all the above basics covered. No matter how nifty their stuff, they're not going to be able to hit the ACs that predominate, or make any of the saves they'll be forced to, and the opponents will hit them every time
Neither solution is particularly great, to be honest. What I'll probably end up doing it allowing the PCs to go item shopping, but make it an adventure in itself - perhaps all the best magic item trading is done in unspeakably dangerous places like Azzagrat and the City of Brass, for instance, or maybe the PCs'll have to visit a dragon and ask very politely to trade for items in its hoard...
It bugs me that in third edition PCs think it is their right to just be able to pick up whatever magic they want and sell off what they want whenever they want, just because there happens to be prices for magical items.
I completely agree with this point and discourage Magic Mart shopping in my games.
Having said that, though, I think there's a great opportunity for an adventure hook here. Part of the process of building up Farshore is to send a trade ship back to Sasserine to reestablish a trade route. Commissioning a custom magic object from the city gives the PCs a great stake in the success of the route and they could even go along if they wanted.
The hook I'm thinking of is to have the returning ship attacked by Emrag (sp?). Depending on how much of a jerk you want to be, the ship could be sunk, have to give up its trade goods as tribute, or barely make it home alive, but in any case it serves as a link to 'Lightless Depths'.
This aspect concerns me as well. My general experience with players is that they actually really like shopping for their magical loot and decking their characters out like Christmas trees.
Its like window shopping except that it apparently works on guys too.
Now my policy at the table (in between trying to kill the varmints) is to generally let the players have their fun and since this is fun (for them anyway, for the DM its an exercise in forbearance having to listen to the heathens babble at each other in an ever rising pitch of excitement as they pass books back and fourth between each other) I'm concerned that it seems to simply not be an option for a slew of levels.
The DM can try and anticipate what they want and design the treasure troves but my experience is thats generally no more effective then relying on Grandma to get you cool clothes for Christmas. You might get lucky but chances are not real good in this regard.
I like the idea of some kind of a side quest in order for them to get access to some way to sell their loot for that luchre they so desire.
Perhaps I'm a little spoiled based on some of the posts I've been seeing--when I started running D&D games about a year ago or so I've found that my players are generally satisfied with the items they get--the one exception being a very specific magical charm broach that gives a resistance bonus specifically against plant based attacks. (then a couple of months later I ran them through Seed of Sehan. Who's laughing now?)
Part of how you get around this problem though is to ideally have read your adventure material ages in advance. You can also have helpful npcs or grateful ones donate stuff--in fact the Isle of Dread section of the AP is a perfect opportunity to offer up stuff that is a little unique and interesting. A gift from a coatl or from the thankful villagers of Tanaroa for instance.
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It bugs me that in third edition PCs think it is their right to just be able to pick up whatever magic they want and sell off what they want whenever they want, just because there happens to be prices for magical items.
Double ditto. I think this is an outgrowth of computer games, where magic items are instantly fungible into gold and vice versa whenever you hit a town.
I know, my 1E roots are showing.
Still, being able to shop for magic items does have the advantage of allowing people to use the word "fungible".
Double ditto. I think this is an outgrowth of computer games, where magic items are instantly fungible into gold and vice versa whenever you hit a town.
I know, my 1E roots are showing.
Yeah - what galls me most is the "wealth by level" guidline in the DMG, which some player take as a divine right to equip their characters in the most improbable way possible... like one HUGE item and a couple of less interesting stuff, well knowing that they can replace it soon. I even had two players trying to collude once playing brothers, self-destructing one character, having the other claim his stuff, then the lemming returne d with the characterhe actually wanted to play... KOTD anyone ?
When starting a new campaign I usually turn out a llist of available stuff (limited in numbers,too, sorted into categories and tell the folks "one pick from A two picks from B, one from C if you are not a mage etc etc. etc."
Works miracles. Also allows to attach some interesting backstories and flavour to the items straight off the board...w will you really pick that shortsword +2, if it is a goblin-forged blade, with which a famous and beloved patriot of your city state was muredered ? hmmm...
The only thing readily y available and rather easily in my campaigns are potions, for one since we allow them being brewed up in batches of up to 1000gp worthm making mass production easier. Second, because there is a sizable market of second-rate, thinned-out and down right "fake" potions.... nothing is as funny as
having a player grabbing for a potion of "cure light wounds in the middle of a fight" and actually draw and quaff a "lesser vigour" due to some "labelling error"
Yeah - what galls me most is the "wealth by level" guidline in the DMG, which some player take as a divine right to equip their characters in the most improbable way possible... like one HUGE item and a couple of less interesting stuff, well knowing that they can replace it soon. I even had two players trying to collude once playing brothers, self-destructing one character, having the other claim his stuff, then the lemming returne d with the characterhe actually wanted to play... KOTD anyone ?
The DMG is pretty clear on the fact that a dead character either gets the old stuff or the old stuff vanishes. You can't break the system by suiciding characters.
The DMG is pretty clear on the fact that a dead character either gets the old stuff or the old stuff vanishes. You can't break the system by suiciding characters.
very very hard to break common sense through application of rules. I subscribe to the point that common sense always wins - ymmv.
Which means, even though the rules say your dead comrades gear "vanishes"... my corpses do not follow the rules of online MMORPGs and decay, taking the loot with them. Which of course opens up an appearent loophole to exploit. then again, I tend to aim a twinned disintegration ray at maximum strength and with a DC 87 (fort) save straight through those loopholes right there and then.
This does bring up an interesting point - part of the appeal of the STAP as a GM is the simple fact that item crafters are not loitering around with placards stating "will craft permanent magical items for beer money".
I had initially made it much less painful for a pure-crafter character to function keeping in mind the limitations of the AP. As time and the campaign have progressed, this matter of course warrants revision. Fortunately, the current opinion on this matter is two-fold. (A) The AP gives up some nice swag throughout as-written, and (B) that some lay-over time is readily provided for within the structure of the AP, permitting commissioning of 'tailored' swag without going stupid.
In a way, the greatest encouragement to keeping one's PC's from permadeath is that weakness in 3e character creation rules - the PC swag-by-level guidelines. It also solves the problem many others have mentioned.
As we all know, however, characters can and will die. How to address that dilemma in the aftermath is probably fairly simple - 'house write' in swag that they come across with pertinent items of return from being dead (scrolls are particularly valuable in this instance, especially when not scribed on paper products), or otherwise alter what they come across in the AP to accomodate returns from messy deaths in the swag they find.
The DMG is pretty clear on the fact that a dead character either gets the old stuff or the old stuff vanishes. You can't break the system by suiciding characters.very very hard to break common sense through application of rules. I subscribe to the point that common sense always wins - ymmv.
Which means, even though the rules say your dead comrades gear "vanishes"... my corpses do not follow the rules of online MMORPGs and decay, taking the loot with them. Which of course opens up an appearent loophole to exploit. then again, I tend to aim a twinned disintegration ray at maximum strength and with a DC 87 (fort) save straight through those loopholes right there and then.
Guess my millage does vary. My players can choose which event they would like to happen 'cause I don't care which one takes place but they can't both keep the old loot and bring in a new character decked out with magic from at start money.
But I've been known to start knocking off characters left and right. It'd total the game if, after the carnage ceased and the dust settled, the players now all had 3 times their wealth by level. I'd have to run a lot of sessions with no treasure at all before that sort of thing got sorted out.
One solution to this is the Archon Shopping Network. Summon a Lantern Archon (Summon Monster IV). Ask it to (greater) teleport ot a friendly magic shop carrying your order (or letters of negotiation, payment etc as appropriate). Then, when the item is finished, summon it again for delivery. I recently realized this is the best and safest way to transport items of up to 50 lb. weight. Of course, you really need to trust your business parter. That you can trust the archon is pretty much a given (as long as you are non-evil, non chaotic, but such people have other options).
A house rule I use for STAP is that you can break down magic items as raw materials for other magic items. This allows people with item creation feats to process magic items into different items without using the expedient of selling it for gold first.
One solution to this is the Archon Shopping Network. Summon a Lantern Archon (Summon Monster IV). Ask it to (greater) teleport ot a friendly magic shop carrying your order (or letters of negotiation, payment etc as appropriate). Then, when the item is finished, summon it again for delivery. I recently realized this is the best and safest way to transport items of up to 50 lb. weight. Of course, you really need to trust your business parter. That you can trust the archon is pretty much a given (as long as you are non-evil, non chaotic, but such people have other options).
A house rule I use for STAP is that you can break down magic items as raw materials for other magic items. This allows people with item creation feats to process magic items into different items without using the expedient of selling it for gold first.
This works if your using the sidebar that has you summon the same creature over and over but I think in most cases if you summon a Lantern Archon at two different points in time you'd generally get two different Lantern Archons.
Hmm...also even if the Lantern Archon placed your order once the time one the summoning ran out it'd vanish without your stuff. It can't take anything back with it to wherever it was summoned from.
I also can't really see it being able to effectively place orders. Its around for all of, what, 60 seconds? Thats a tad short to be making purchases for 10,000s of gp.
Guess my millage does vary. My players can choose which event they would like to happen 'cause I don't care which one takes place but they can't both keep the old loot and bring in a new character decked out with magic from at start money.
But I've been known to start knocking off characters left and right. It'd total the game if, after the carnage ceased and the dust settled, the players now all had 3 times their wealth by level. I'd have to run a lot of sessions with no treasure at all before that sort of thing got sorted out.
Different type of mastering style.... Then again I also have NPCs that "Sunder", Items gettting drenched, swept away by currents, dropped int nothingness by stunned characters..... I never have the feeling my players feel over-equiipped and monty haulish.
It can also happen, that the stuff that "drops" (sorry for the MMORPGism) keeps fitting the party's needs more or less, dpending on their overall wealth. Having to sell useless stuff easily reduces the available purchasing power by 50% or more...
This aspect concerns me as well. My general experience with players is that they actually really like shopping for their magical loot and decking their characters out like Christmas trees.
Its like window shopping except that it apparently works on guys too.
Now my policy at the table (in between trying to kill the varmints) is to generally let the players have their fun and since this is fun (for them anyway, for the DM its an exercise in forbearance having to listen to the heathens babble at each other in an ever rising pitch of excitement as they pass books back and fourth between each other) I'm concerned that it seems to simply not be an option for a slew of levels.
The DM can try and anticipate what they want and design the treasure troves but my experience is thats generally no more effective then relying on Grandma to get you cool clothes for Christmas. You might get lucky but chances are not real good in this regard.
I like the idea of some kind of a side quest in order for them to get access to some way to sell their loot for that luchre they so desire.
See, I'm with you. My players have a lot of fun in cashing in the loot they find, upgrading weapons, and plotting out magic item creation. I prefer not to get in the way of that.
However, by the time they get south - we just finished There Is No Honor - things will get harder for them for a while, and they'll just have to deal with it. I think this is necessary for the atmosphere of the place. If they had a "home base" they could keep retreating to, to pick up stuff like vorpal weapons or whatever, this would take the fun out of it. I do plan on scattering some treasure here and there to keep them at a level I feel they should be, but I think it's going to be fun to present the PCs with the challenge of: "Make the best with what you have, 'cuz this is is for a while."
See, I'm with you. My players have a lot of fun in cashing in the loot they find, upgrading weapons, and plotting out magic item creation. I prefer not to get in the way of that.However, by the time they get south - we just finished There Is No Honor - things will get harder for them for a while, and they'll just have to deal with it. I think this is necessary for the atmosphere of the place. If they had a "home base" they could keep retreating to, to pick up stuff like vorpal weapons or whatever, this would take the fun out of it. I do plan on scattering some treasure here and there to keep them at a level I feel they should be, but I think it's going to be fun to present the PCs with the challenge of: "Make the best with what you have, 'cuz this is is for a while."
Thats a good point. Reality is they are cut off from civilization. In this case they'll just have to deal. They have no other alternatives and in the end it will make them appreciate it even more when they can buy magical loot. 'course you know this means that the first time they make it to the big city after the Isle of Dread your going to have a session but your not going to really DM. Their going to go wild like a kids in a candy store and spend the whole session trying to spend the vast piles of luchre.
It can also happen, that the stuff that "drops" (sorry for the MMORPGism) keeps fitting the party's needs more or less, dpending on their overall wealth. Having to sell useless stuff easily reduces the available purchasing power by 50% or more...
I've certainly noticed that players tend to get poorer as the game progresses due to their wealth diminishing from buying magic items at full price and selling for 1/2. Still I'd never want to solve this by letting characters keep the loot of dead characters. You'd be encouraging suicide.
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Inspired by one of the things the goldenrod AD&D character sheets used to have a space for, in my campaign I've asked every PC to establish a Last Will & Testament with details of how their stuff should be disposed of when they're gone. Naming other PCs to inherit is not allowed, both because of meta-game wealth management problems and because this question is another way of saying "What NPCs matter most to your character?"
I figure that if the other PCs feel honor-bound to carry out their deceased companion's wishes, there's still room for roleplaying around arguments like "if we don't use some of his possessions now, we'll never make it out of this dungeon to give them to his heirs."
The STAP poses the problem that after a certain point, it'll be a long time before the PCs would be able to return stuff to heirs that are almost certainly in Sasserine or even further. At mid-levels, I might throw in a friendly merchant ship heading in the right direction: later in the game a celestial might appear & offer to carry the remains off to their proper disposition.
I've certainly noticed that players tend to get poorer as the game progresses due to their wealth diminishing from buying magic items at full price and selling for 1/2. Still I'd never want to solve this by letting characters keep the loot of dead characters. You'd be encouraging suicide.
It can also happen, that the stuff that "drops" (sorry for the MMORPGism) keeps fitting the party's needs more or less, dpending on their overall wealth. Having to sell useless stuff easily reduces the available purchasing power by 50% or more...
Hmm, we must be gaming with different types of players. The guy who "lemminged" his character is not gaming in our circles anymore ( no regrets ), and typically, if loot from dead characters keeps getting "handed down", there is typically a valid roleplaying reason inolved (no need for GM pressure). We have also had a number of "viking style" nordic burials with the character and his wealth being burned on a pyre or in the instance of a dwarf, being buried in his tomb along with his prized weaponry etc.
After all, if nobody did that - where do all the nefaooius tombs etc come from....
But having a meta-game rule (which is actually labeled as a "guideline", methinks for good reason ) interfere with common sense is not something I go for.