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I was watching Jim Lherer over dinner and they had an interview with Presidential Candidate Ron Paul.
His point of view was surprising. He said something that no one in the US Government is saying. Not even the Democrats think a pull out in the next five years is achievable (Democrat timetable is 2012AD).
That being in Iraq and Afghanistan is about the oil and the USA shouldnt be there taking other people's oil on the philosophy that America Needs oil so they should take it.
He commented on the idea that the USA should not be propping up tyrannies in the middle east because they are prepared to sell oil to the USA.
He spoke about how an out of control CIA keeps digging one hole after the next for the USA to fall into. Apparently he is so determined to reign in the CIA that he is prepared, as the next President, to shut the organization down.
He is perhaps the first US Government Representative prepared to stand up infront of US citizens and tell them they dont have the right to the resource share of non Americans.
Would he be capable of actually getting Americans to vote Republican of their own free will at the next election?
Speaking as someone who's watching all this up close for the first time, the adage about the nomination process looks creepily like coming true.
Democrats fall in love with their candidate.
Republicans fall in line with theirs.
Were you born an a@#~#*@, or do you practice at it?These kinds of personal attacks have no place here.
Seconded- you're doing nothing for your argument and only confirms the Republican attack dog image that morons like Coulter and O'Reilly propogate.
Just shows how far the quality of political debate has dropped.
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Ron Paul - I've actually heard of this guy. He originally was on the Libertarian ticket, then realized that third party candidates have no chance of getting elected. If I actually decided that I wanted to vote, I'd vote for him. Libertarianism: the closest you can get to anarchy and still have a govenment. \m/
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These kinds of personal attacks have no place here.
Quite right. When I read a post like "chatdemon"'s, I like to check their profile. Most times, they're not a regular, so what's the point of rising to it? They probably won't be back to read your response.
There's a huge number of posters on-site these days with less than 20 posts to their name; many of whom seem to have created a profile for the sole purpose of telling us all how Paizo's products, or the Paizo community have offended them, and they're taking their ball home.
To which, the only response possible is...."Huh? Who said that?..<shrug>...<go back to enjoying the best, most intelligent, most polite gaming forum on the web>".
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Snorter - what other profiles have fit this pattern and what threads? Is it just the politics threads, or is it all over the place?Largely politics, but I've seen them cropping up in a few places in the last week or two.
I smell a rat. A Wizard-bred rat. (Insert Jimmy Cagney joke involving the words "dirty" and "rat".)
Just shows how far the quality of political debate has dropped.Is this what you consider quality? Calling people names is quality (and the name you used show no imagination)? Hyperbole is quality? Baseless flaming with hate is debate? Wow, you are a wonderful representation of the Liberal philosophy. Well Done.
If this is how the liberal mind defines quality, then I think I will stick to my Libertarian beliefs. (Im not sold on Ron Paul BTW)
I find it ironic that Liberals are supposed to be the "Make Love, Not War" attitude, yet when talking to someone the perceive conservative, they feel they are allowed vitriolic responses.
Irony indeed.
--
On Topic
My impression of Ron Paul is the Bill Board Candidate. He seems to be parroting exactly what we wish to hear.
I havent decided on any candidate yet. To early, to make any decision on any candidate IMHO.
I feel like its 3 years ago again. New elections, no standouts and we all are going to end up with the same choices; Dumb and Dumber. No matter what we do, the best we will get is Dumb..
On Topic
My impression of Ron Paul is the Bill Board Candidate. He seems to be parroting exactly what we wish to hear.
I havent decided on any candidate yet. To early, to make any decision on any candidate IMHO.
I feel like its 3 years ago again. New elections, no standouts and we all are going to end up with the same choices; Dumb and Dumber. No matter what we do, the best we will get is Dumb..
That he is saying things the liberals like would seem to make it doubly suspicious. Hmmmm. CIA agent says the CIA should be closed. PERFECT!
What a depressing irony if a sincere candidate didn't get elected because his excellent plans seem too perfect.
Just shows how far the quality of political debate has dropped.
Is this what you consider quality? Calling people names is quality (and the name you used show no imagination)? Hyperbole is quality? Baseless flaming with hate is debate? Wow, you are a wonderful representation of the Liberal philosophy. Well Done.
If this is how the liberal mind defines quality, then I think I will stick to my Libertarian beliefs. (Im not sold on Ron Paul BTW)
I find it ironic that Liberals are supposed to be the "Make Love, Not War" attitude, yet when talking to someone the perceive conservative, they feel they are allowed vitriolic responses.
Irony indeed.
With all due respect, sir, you have to take into consideration what has happened on other threads and to look back over the last year or more. Everyone in here is quite civil, and has been quite civil until only recently. Only 'lately' have things deteriorated.
It is neither 'liberals' nor 'conservatives' who are responsible for the degradation in debate at Paizo and addressing us by using these heterogeneous categories does nothing more than bely your blustering superiority.
Individuals bring down the debate.
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Snorter - what other profiles have fit this pattern and what threads? Is it just the politics threads, or is it all over the place?
Let's make a list and then ummm... ummm.... I'm a liberal--I just don't know what you are supposed to do with those lists.
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Were you born an a@#~#*@, or do you practice at it?These kinds of personal attacks have no place here.
I agree completely.
That being said, as a Republican I also feel that such postings as
Would he be capable of actually getting Americans to vote Republican of their own free will at the next election?
and
Republicans fall in line with theirs.
also have no place here.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Snorter - what other profiles have fit this pattern and what threads? Is it just the politics threads, or is it all over the place?Let's make a list and then ummm... ummm.... I'm a liberal--I just don't know what you are supposed to do with those lists.
Well, if things are getting that bad, rather than ask for the banhammer, we make a list and do the only thing that drives trolls away - ignore them. Whenever a troll posts, link back to the list rather than respond so that everyone's on the same page.
Of course, the challenge would be differentiating and listing the real trolls from controversial regulars/lurkers. I'd say anyone with less than 50 or so posts under their belt making personal attacks fits the troll criteria and should be ignored (which includes the always cordial chatdemon rich). The usual hyperbole comments (all republicans are secretly gay or liberals hate America) don't really rise to the level of trolling, they're just obnoxious.
But, all that being said, I don't find trolls to be a compelling problem if they are just operating in the political threads. Such threads generally invite the internet's lowest common denominator, even at a good community like this. So, if there's a troll problem in political threads, seems to me the proper response is to just start ignoring political threads, particularly when someone is clearly posting just to get a rise (including yellowdingo, who has been starting more than his fair share of these political threads lately). Which, starting now, I intend to do.
However, if anyone needs someone to start a witchhunt against trolls operating outside political threads, give me a buzz. I've got no problem persecuting problematic posters (and with aliteration at that).
This is a good community and it is better that we ignore trolls until they go away rather than run to Gary for heavy handed moderation.
Director of Narrative
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I wonder if it's possible to troll for trolls?I agree.
This is a good community and it is better that we ignore trolls until they go away rather than run to Gary for heavy handed moderation.
Yes.
Many species are attracted by certain topics.
It is best to simply leave them alone.
also have no place here.
Absolutely support you on that despite having disagreed with you on other counts.
It sounds like Ron Paul's success in the straw poll would indicate that the republican's republicans have survived.
These kinds of personal attacks have no place here.But apparently, attacks like those yellowdingo constantly makes on republicans and americans are? Thanks for letting me know, I won't intrude on your bush hating any more.
I'm not familiar with yellowdingo's attacks, so cannot comment.
If all you can contribute are personal attacks laden with *$%##@ type cussing, with no real points to refute or debate, then stomping off in a bad tempered sulk when taken to task for this kind of behaviour, then please don't intrude- leave the discussions to the grown ups who can actually make cogient points.
Yes, I am Liberal- I believe political leaders need to be held to the standards their office requires of them to do their job. I believe that laissez faire captialism isn't necessarily the best way to run a decent society. I don't believe religiosity means morality- history has proved as much time and time again. I believe in the seperation of powers and that the Goverment needs to keep out of the pulpit as much as Dogma needs to keep out of the Oval Office, and that mixing the two demeans the former and corrupts the latter. I believe this President has run roughshod over the Consitution and has never managed to make a success of any enterprise he was given to run and has remained true to form since taking office. I believe that Goverment is an us, not a them and that if you don't like things as they stand to get informed, make up your own mind and get active. If there's anything there that you disagree with, fire away, take you best shot. Show me where I'm wrong.
BTW, I notice that you seem to equate Republicans with Americans- so by your reasoning, should the other half of the electorate should be stripped of their citizenship? Last time I checked, this was still a democracy that didn't equate loyalty and acceptability with Party Affiliation.
Back on Track, I think Ron Paul has a snowballs chance in hell- I can agree with some policies, but his brand of folksy, isolationist, old time, back to basics policies are pretty utopian and stand little or no chance to be actually feisable.
Were you born an a@#~#*@, or do you practice at it?These kinds of personal attacks have no place here.I agree completely.
That being said, as a Republican I also feel that such postings as
Would he be capable of actually getting Americans to vote Republican of their own free will at the next election?and
Republicans fall in line with theirs.also have no place here.
Just read your post, Aberzombie, and you have my apologies if offense was caused- though considering just how disciplined the Republican party faithful have been in the past, and how it has won them elections, I'm not sure it was such a slur. Just because Democrats fall in love, doesn't make it a good thing- love is fickle and capricous, after all and the Democratic base isn't exactly noted for it's cohesiveness.
I suppose it was a bit of a backhanded compliment in anycase- sorry.
This morning, after a hectic day at work, I stopped by the Walmart next to I-275 because it’s open when I’m awake and my son needs more formula. Drinking a Diet Coke to unwind in the car, I now need to use the restroom. Things are going smoothly; I’m evacuating my bladder and reading the graffiti, until I turn around to leave and find, “I hate Niger” carved into the stall door.
Thoughts in sequence:
1. That’s just sad, a bigot who can’t even spell correctly. Talk about perpetuating a stereotype.
2. Assuming it’s spelled incorrectly, why only one?
3. Maybe it is correct, and he’s angry about Plutonium exportation?
So, not willing to allow our new friend to wallow in ignorance, and wishing for a better world where my son won’t be using a restroom filled with racist scrawl in the future, I decided to help. Mind you, I’ve never actually participated in graffiti before, and I was deathly afraid someone would see me and think I had carved the original, so I retrieved my trusty pocket knife and quickly added “IA” to the end, thinking, they sure do send out a lot of phishing spam, and they did deny Bill Gates a travel Visa.
So apparently, I hate Nigeria (though closer to the mark I’d say I’m ambivalent).
What part of Americans and Republicans didn't you understand?
BTW, I notice that you seem to equate Republicans with Americans-
I said seem to equate one with the other- that that wasn't your intention, then I stand corrected and am happy to concede the point, since it only reflects well on your good self.
Now that's out of the way- who do you think should get the Republican nomination and why?
In reference to yellowdingo's posts (cited above),
As long as this crap is tolerated here, you really need to be prepared for the fact that now and then, someone is going to take offense and tell him what to do with himself.
So you respond to yellowdingo's posts as "crap" with personal attacks?
If what you have cited from yellowdingo's posts is not to be "tolerated" then I suppose you object to freedom of speech, or maybe you would just like to have non-Americans banned from posting here. That might not work because there are a good many of Americans who happen to agree with him.
Frankly, I don't see what is so objectionable about anything he says. These posts are clearly not a case of hating Americans, they are well a informed and humorous take on American policies and recent events, and although I don't always agree with yellowdingo, at least he engages in civil debate.
How about instead of telling him "what to do with himself" as you put it, you actually engage in an intelligent debate, or are you incapable?
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Now that's out of the way- who do you think should get the Republican nomination and why?
I support Duncan Hunter, for being strong on immigration, dedicated to finishing the job Bush started in Iraq and Afghanistan, and (IMO), strong on traditional family values.
Sure, finish the job. What was the job? Oh yeah, finding WMD.... wait.... bringing democracy to Iraqis.... ummm no.... PROTECTING OIL. The job will be finished, I reckon, when the Iraqis run out of oil. OR, maybe it just means killing all the people who don't want America meddling in, must less deciding, Iraqi policies.
(Now my question is, is my last comment Anti-American, or Anti-Bush, or am I a bleeding heart liberal? Please tell me what's wrong with people saying stuff like that.)
I support Duncan Hunter, for being strong on immigration, dedicated to finishing the job Bush started in Iraq and Afghanistan, and (IMO), strong on traditional family values.
Now that's out of the way- who do you think should get the Republican nomination and why?
Wasn't familar with Mr. Hunter, but went to his site and took a look- I may not agree with him on most issues (that's a whole thread onto itself), but he's a sight less annoying then Rudy "9/11" Guliani.
On the downside, polls have been placing him dead last amongst named candidates.I'm not entitled to vote as a Resident Alien, but that doesn't mean I can't take in interest.
I'm not going to deny that YD holds radical views and I know he has made statements that are not true, but I can't see how you can support your interpretation of what he says.
For example: where does he call anyone a Nazi?
and
When did he say Americans practice genocide?
Now
America has killed innocents for no reason although I know "Americans" didn't go out intending to do so.
and
"Shock and awe" is terrorism.
and
Although they don't seem to have funded them, it sure looks like, at the very least, your government knew the 911 attacks were going to happen, and after they were complete, the government certainly did manipulate the attack to propagandize policies that were pre-prepared. How convenient.
I am offended when someone replies to verbal attacks like YD's with obscenity instead of a well reasoned and fair reply. More people here will listen to you if you engage him with skill instead of force, and if you really care about these issues then you certainly should try to get us to listen to you. Your country is in a bad way right now and ALL Americans need to get their shit together instead of descending into mad quarreling.
Apparently, I didn't derail hard enough last time, although I have to admit this thread seems to be getting quite a bit more civil, or was, at any rate.
Too late to call for a group hug?
Ok, so you agree with the basis of YD's posts. Fine.
When you posted, just now, your opinion on why the US is in Iraq, you did not call Americans or Bush:
Killers of Innocents for no reason.
Nazis.
Slaves to the draft.
Terrorist equals to Bin Laden.
Financiers of the 9-11 attacks.
Devoid of "ethics, strength of will and character".
Practitioners of genocide.YD did so, all of them, in his posts I quoted. That is the crap I am talking about, not his views. He's not the only one here who isn't a conservative republican, but he's the only one I chose to respond to, does that tell you anything?
Okay, let's take these one at a time:
Nazis is a bit strong, I'd grant you, but to quote FDR:"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power."
Certainly not a million miles away from Mr Bush, Cheney or Haliburton.
Devoid of Strenght of Will, certainly not- Mr Bush is downright obstinate and almost Monarchial in his intractability. But when your administration poo poos the Geneva Convention and seeks to undermine the Bill of Rights while obfuscating to Congress, it indicates individuals who are ethically challanged and lack character to openly defend their position.
With regard 9/11, conspiracies and allegations will always abound- that said, it was hardly such a bolt from the blue. The US has for decades been propping up both sides in the middle east, giving logistical support to repressive regimes while letting themselves get set up by said regimes as their whipping boy to misdirect local discontent to the Great Satan and Israel. It's an impossible situation that was going to come back to bite them in the ass at some point.
The US has had its hands in many insurgencies over the years- these are the ones I could think of offhand- their overthrow of the Democratically elected Chilean Goverment in the 70's, their support and training of Turkish forces to create a Terror campaign against the Kurds in the 90's. The US supplied the Mujahideen with it's weaponry during their war against the Russians, Saddam with Logistics to help fight Iran, set up General Noriega in Panama. There's a pattern of creating armed political Frankensteins that run amok once they outlive their immediate usefullness.
Or my personal favorite: El Salvador.
Apparently, I didn't derail hard enough last time, although I have to admit this thread seems to be getting quite a bit more civil, or was, at any rate.
Too late to call for a group hug?
Whether or not I hug you depends on whether you are a ninja lover or a pirate lover.
Sniff, it always comes down to class.
If I can only choose one, it has to be pirates (Sorry ninjas, you know we're still buds, right?).
Personally I'm a big fan of Ron Paul, although I don't agree with all of his views.
I do think that the IRS needs to go away. I think that America needs to get out of Iraq, and focus on military defense, not offense.
However, unlike him, I do not think that immigration is a problem, and believe that we should open our borders to anybody who would like to come in, and is able.
Yes, I am a libertarian.
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This morning, after a hectic day at work, I stopped by the Walmart next to I-275 because it’s open when I’m awake and my son needs more formula. Drinking a Diet Coke to unwind in the car, I now need to use the restroom. Things are going smoothly; I’m evacuating my bladder and reading the graffiti, until I turn around to leave and find, “I hate Niger” carved into the stall door.
Thoughts in sequence:
1. That’s just sad, a bigot who can’t even spell correctly. Talk about perpetuating a stereotype.
2. Assuming it’s spelled incorrectly, why only one?
3. Maybe it is correct, and he’s angry about Plutonium exportation?So, not willing to allow our new friend to wallow in ignorance, and wishing for a better world where my son won’t be using a restroom filled with racist scrawl in the future, I decided to help. Mind you, I’ve never actually participated in graffiti before, and I was deathly afraid someone would see me and think I had carved the original, so I retrieved my trusty pocket knife and quickly added “IA” to the end, thinking, they sure do send out a lot of phishing spam, and they did deny Bill Gates a travel Visa.
So apparently, I hate Nigeria (though closer to the mark I’d say I’m ambivalent).
No offense, but that's the funniest thing I've heard all day.
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Ok, so you agree with the basis of YD's posts. Fine.
When you posted, just now, your opinion on why the US is in Iraq, you did not call Americans or Bush:
Killers of Innocents for no reason.
Nazis.
Slaves to the draft.
Terrorist equals to Bin Laden.
Financiers of the 9-11 attacks.
Devoid of "ethics, strength of will and character".
Practitioners of genocide.
No offense, but that's the funniest thing I've heard all day.
Thanks; my wife was similarly amused, though I don't wish to encourage graffiti (just wait till I catch those punks defiling the “little ceaser’s” at the end of the street)!
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Personally I'm a big fan of Ron Paul, although I don't agree with all of his views.
I do think that the IRS needs to go away. I think that America needs to get out of Iraq, and focus on military defense, not offense.
However, unlike him, I do not think that immigration is a problem, and believe that we should open our borders to anybody who would like to come in, and is able.
Yes, I am a libertarian.
Hey, me too!
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For example: where does he call anyone a Nazi?
and
When did he say Americans practice genocide?Drop your blind attack on what I'm saying and read his g#@ d~%ned posts, as I quoted them. HIS WORDS, not mine:
Sure Osama is vermin, but lets get it right...so are the guys on the otherside
Despite the Firemen blocking six lanes of inbound traffic to the World Trade centre prior to the crash of the first plane, the only conspiracy there was George Bush throwing money at the vermin just in time to finance their attack
ROSWELL: Try deformed people as a result of Experiments using radiation on children-something a bunch of NAZI nuclear scientists have no problem with. More a crime of the US Government of the day than anything else.
That was on a joke/casual "conspiracy" thread, you twit.
Calling americans nazis is not a joke, in any context, ever.
Why? Is it rude and antagonistic? Is that kind of behavior inappropriate?
PS my better sense is saying don't get involved in this thread (which started quite well). I'm laying even odds on it getting moderated also. Regards all :)
PS my better sense is saying don't get involved in this thread (which started quite well). I'm laying even odds on it getting moderated also. Regards all :)
I don't think your wrong on that.
That he is saying things the liberals like would seem to make it doubly suspicious. Hmmmm. CIA agent says the CIA should be closed. PERFECT!
What a depressing irony if a sincere candidate didn't get elected because his excellent plans seem too perfect.
Your conclusion of sincerity in the field of politics is well…., presumptive at best, and based on recent history, ludicrous. He may indeed be sincere, but I haven’t seen enough to jump to such conclusions. If you read my post, you will see that I haven’t made my mind up. I haven’t jumped on any bandwagon at the moment. I would prefer to do my homework, and make a decision.
Your impression that your conclusions of RP as a sincere isn’t enough for the rest of the community. You will of course forgive me if I do my homework, rather then partake in the days Kool Aid?
With all due respect, sir, you have to take into consideration what has happened on other threads and to look back over the last year or more. Everyone in here is quite civil, and has been quite civil until only recently. Only 'lately' have things deteriorated.
Well, the day I login, there is a locked thread, and then I read this. Your expectation that one researches a years posts is obtuse. Its called first impressions, something people cannot avoid, nor change (that funny thing called human nature).
It is neither 'liberals' nor 'conservatives' who are responsible for the degradation in debate at Paizo and addressing us by using these heterogeneous categories does nothing more than bely your blustering superiority.
Your impression of my post is erroneous, and an apparent attempt to do exactly what you complain I am doing, categorizing negativity. Shall I recommend to you, like you did to me and research the posts? I have already said I Moderate a newspapers board in a thread on this board. I moderate the opinions section, and the Moderate Political section to be precise. So when I speak of the generalization that you speak of, its not just on Paizo's boards, but a general impression from multiple board participation, current political environment, and the media. No my good sir, this isn't a knee jerk, shoot from the hip response. The perception is one that is earned, and one you cannot set the parameters for simply because its Paizo's board.
Individuals bring down the debate.
No argument here, but those individuals also represent philosophies and ideals. My post was to show someone’s hypocrisy based on the general political platform of a party.
Indeed, today’s political environment is fraught with aggressive extremism. It has embittered many a moderate, to be caught in the middle of the “If you’re not with us, you’re against us” war between the Neocons and Liberals. Hate is peddled like yesterdays bread and I have seen it surface in posts like the one I commented on. On other boards I have been called both a Nonconservative and a Flaming Liberal. Its the typical rhetoric us Moderates get.
So, spare me your analysis of my “heterogeneous categories”. I addressed his post directly, and accurately. Nothing in your rebuttal points to an incorrect analysis of his post.
In reference to yellowdingo's posts (cited above),
If what you have cited from yellowdingo's posts is not to be "tolerated" then I suppose you object to freedom of speech, or maybe you would just like to have non-Americans banned from posting here. That might not work because there are a good many of Americans who happen to agree with him.
Actually, Free Speech is not a Right on these boards. Hence, Moderators. When we accept the Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct, we agree to operate on those rules. In addition, the First Amendment points to Governmental involvement on the Speech level, not forum board discussion groups. But I do agree with you that peoples ideas shouldnt be filtered to those we merely agree with. Discussion is indeed the cure to ignorance, even if the discussion is about ignorance.
Frankly, I don't see what is so objectionable about anything he says. These posts are clearly not a case of hating Americans, they are well a informed and humorous take on American policies and recent events, and although I don't always agree with yellowdingo, at least he engages in civil debate.
How about instead of telling him "what to do with himself" as you put it, you actually engage in an intelligent debate, or are you incapable?
Here we agree, but then, when I did that, you accused me of having “blustering superiority.”