I ask here because, unlike a such a qeustion posed at the WotC boards, I KNOW I will get an answer I can trust.
So here goes.
What is known about the proto-devils/proto-Baatorians? What sources are they in? What, if anything, can be drawn from this? (In lieu of any real information, I'll take speculations or anything people have developed on their own...)
I know only that they are to the Batezu what the Obryth are to the Tan'ri- A precursor race that was once the true ruler of their current home, and now they're in decline. Much is known about the Obryth and their few remaining rulers (indeed, for a race in decline, they seem to be doing all right for themselves...), but I've heard next to nothing about the so-called proto-devils.
So... Just cuz I'm bored... I'd be happ to hear what little IS known about these frustratingly mysterious beings.
Thanks.
Pre-FCII, I thought that Nupperibo were Baatorians. They were the lowest of the Baatorians, but given enough time could eventually evolve, perhaps challenging the Baatezu for control of Hell. For that reason (and to create more Baatezu), Nupperibo were hunted ceaselessly to be transformed into Lemures.
Post-FCII, Nupperibo are apparently just blind fat jokes.
If any ancient Baatorians are still out there, they are very old, very powerful, and very much in hiding. Since if they attract too much notice, the Baatezu will see them destroyed.
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Not from D&D lore, but this thread reminded me....
I had a book called Barlowe's Inferno, by a fantasy artist named Wayne Barlowe. There was an ancient demon or devil in it, a nightmarish montage/composite of an Australopithecine, hyena, leopard, and some kind of monkey-eating eagle; it was hypothetically the demonic entity that inspired the first murder....pretty freaky.
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Yeah, the Fiendish Codex from Hell kind of ignores the original Baatorians, going so far as describing preAsmodeus Baator as a vast, EMPTY wasteland. Asmodeus's chief Devils complain that there is nothing there at first.
In 3.0 Deities & Demigods the "possibility" of a race of Baatorians is mentioned briefly. It mentions that IF they existed or if any still exist, they're likely to be in the 6th Circle, Malboldge, hiding. (6th Circle, right; it's been a while since I looked it up)
-W. E. Ray
I will say that this book is the BEST suppliment (anything) WotC has put out in YEARS. I harp on All the crap they've done so I should mention my love for this book.
Using the history provided in the FCII I think that the 'proto-devils' were LG outsiders who fell from grace and became the arch-devils and maybe the erinyes and pit fiends. They then created the rest of the devils. That's just my opinion.
It could make an interesting campaign, the rise of the Baatrians.
Not from D&D lore, but this thread reminded me....
I had a book called Barlowe's Inferno, by a fantasy artist named Wayne Barlowe. There was an ancient demon or devil in it, a nightmarish montage/composite of an Australopithecine, hyena, leopard, and some kind of monkey-eating eagle; it was hypothetically the demonic entity that inspired the first murder....pretty freaky.
I have this book too, and it seriously rocks.
For the OP, we need to cast "Summon Todd Stewart", the unofficial master of Lower Planes lore. He's most interested in the Baernaloths (progenitors of the Yugoloths), but he's written some good stuff on forums, and he's very informed. Let's see if he gets wind of this thread...
Using the history provided in the FCII I think that the 'proto-devils' were LG outsiders who fell from grace and became the arch-devils and maybe the erinyes and pit fiends. They then created the rest of the devils. That's just my opinion.
It could make an interesting campaign, the rise of the Baatrians.
That's what the Baatezu were before; however, in certain books, there is mention of a race of beings which inhabited Baator before the angels fell from grace and became the Baatezu. I've heard them referred to as Ancient Battorians and/or (Ancient) Hellions. I have no information outside of that (and Asmodeus is probably dispatching Dogai at this moment to kill me for saying even this much...).
At least, no official information. There was a little bit on this race in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark, when you go to Cania. There is mention of the elder race of Baatorians, and I believe (it's been a while since I played the game) in there, they are depicted as having been (more) benevolent (than the Baatezu; or at least, Baator was a friendlier place then). But that's NWN, which is not known for having any kind of accuracy or legitimacy when it comes to D&D canon.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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The ancient Baatorians are in more than just decline. Unlike the Obyriths the Ancient Baatorians are hidden in the deepest reaches of Baator or frozen in the Ice of Cania. Nupperibo are larval Baatorians rather than Baatezu and given enough time would develop into one. Each Baatorian is unique (so far as we've seen).
Original sources are Planes of Law, Hellbound: the Bloodwar (adventure Squaring the Circle), and the adventure Tales from the Infinite Staircase.
That's what the Baatezu were before; however, in certain books, there is mention of a race of beings which inhabited Baator before the angels fell from grace and became the Baatezu. I've heard them referred to as Ancient Battorians and/or (Ancient) Hellions. I have no information outside of that (and Asmodeus is probably dispatching Dogai at this moment to kill me for saying even this much...).
In the prolouge at the beginning of FCII (I also think it rocks) it describes pre-Batezu Baator as a "bleak and featureless plain". I take this to mean that it was uninhabited and thus there were no Baatorians.
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That's what the Baatezu were before; however, in certain books, there is mention of a race of beings which inhabited Baator before the angels fell from grace and became the Baatezu. I've heard them referred to as Ancient Battorians and/or (Ancient) Hellions. I have no information outside of that (and Asmodeus is probably dispatching Dogai at this moment to kill me for saying even this much...).In the prolouge at the beginning of FCII (I also think it rocks) it describes pre-Batezu Baator as a "bleak and featureless plain". I take this to mean that it was uninhabited and thus there were no Baatorians.
Other, earlier, sources contradict this, suggesting that a race of creatures lived in Hell prior to the arrival of the Batezu Devils.
I think these "Ancient Baatorians" are briefly mentioned in FCI, as well as various other sources that people in this thread have mentioned.
I only have experience with 3.5 material so I may not be rigth.
Quick hop over to Planewalker dot com, and the answer is revealed (at least as much as one could be). Note: I shortened Asmodeus to Asmo several times, sorry.
Paraphrasing from planewalker:
the Ancient Baatorians, or Proto-devils did exist in the nine hells BEFORE the Baatezu were created. Whether or not Asmodeus or his predecessor (if any) had something to do with it is a matter of pure speculation. What is known is that Nupperibos are members of this maligned race. They are essentially infants, and the fact that more are being produced implies that there are still Ancient Baatorians influencing the larvae coming in through the astral conduits into Baator.
/paraphrasing.
There are thought to be Ancient Baatorians lying in wait on various layers of the Nine hells, although Malbolge, and the Dungeons under Maladommi are thought to be likely places to find them. The only other place that they might be found is frozen in the ice of Cania, in the middle of battling ancient versions of angels, guardinals, or eladrins.
Now, my speculation is that Asmodeus (THE fiend) and the Baernloths (pre-fiends) struck a bargain, with Asmo putting up a measure of his power to create a "servitor race." Problem is, the race was both Lawful and Evil, like himself. They were able to resist his control, and formed their own hierarchy. Asmodeus created the baatezu in response to this, making them to combat and destroy the ancient baatorians. The survivors, which could not fully manifest anymore, became myth as Asmodeus destroyed ALMOST every record of their existance.
The other speculation I have is that the Baernloths created the Lawful and Evil exemplars that would be later known as Ancient Baatorians shortly after Asmodeus's fall. Asmo was severely weakened by his fall, and was unable to do anything for many centuries (or millenia, depending on how old you make your planes). As he regained lucidity, he began creating "children" that would follow in his wretched footsteps. These children would later be known as the baatezu. They were created to one: Destroy the Ancient Baatorians, destroy any record of the Ancient Baatorians, and maintain a status quo within their plane. Eventually the rest of the outer planes formed into the great ring, and they were put into service as defenders of the hells, and attackers of opposing philosophies. The fact that there are still nupperibo's being produced has put a small glitch into Asmo's plans, but even with that influence, he has found ways to bring them into his control. (Kinda the plane messing with Asmo, or the Ancient Baatorians have some control...).
Mind you, I follow the 2e book Guide to Hell on who Asmo really is (and why he hasn't been deposed, although it looked like he was), and the Baernloths are merely insane powers that assist with creating Exemplars of X. x can be alignment, philosopy, or some other radical concept.
As Primemover and others mentioned, the sources on the Ancient Baatorians are primarily 2e (Hellbound: The Blood War, Faces of Evil: The Fiends, and Tales from the Infinite Staircase).
That said, they have been mentioned in 3.x in the Manual of the Planes and in FC:I. FC:II unfortunately ignores them, but of course FC:II's prehistory is an admitted myth that follows in the tradition of the revisionist histories of successful tyrants. Of course it won't admit that there were native inhabitants of the 9 Hells before its current masters.
While the 2e material is slightly different we can still make a nice synthesis between the 2e and 3.x mythologies on the subject:
Baatezu = originally servitors of the primordial lords of LN. Corrupted by the expanding influence of Evil creeping out of the primordial Waste (incidental or not), they fell from LN to LE, and along with their master Asmodeus were exiled into Baator [It's important to note that even FC:II admits that Baator existed prior to the arrival of the baatezu]. Once there they took control of the plane and displaced its original natives, the ancient baatorians.
Ancient Baatorians = created by the baernaloths at the same time as that original fiendish race was seeding the primordial Abyss with the first obyriths. The ancient baatorians arrived at LE via NE (evil tainted with law), whereas the baatezu arrived there by way of law tainted by evil. Some of the ancients remain in torper in the depths of various layers and some remain locked in the glaciers of Cania (and we can probably interpret the "angels" frozen in the ice with them as pre-fall baatezu or the newly fallen baatezu before their forms were fully twisted and reimagined by their adopted plane).
I might have to do something with this. I've been wanting to do a fiendish campaign.