I am preparing to start a new pathfinder campaign (see ad) and one of my players has expressed an interest in playing a paladin. The paragraph on page 8 of the RotRL Players Guide that describes the Hellknight Order of the Nail is rather ambiguous, so I'd like a second opinion on a few things.
Beyond the servants of individual gods, members of a
divergent, grim order of paladins (and ex-paladins) might
also be found. Korvosa—in its traditional ties to Cheliax—
enthusiastically supplies Citadel Vraid, bastion of the
Hellknight Order of the Nail. The Chelaxian Hellknights
pay homage to no deity, but rather bend the rigid law and
infernal traditions of Hell to their will. Made up primarily of
grave humans and dwarves, along with the occasional half-orc
or centaur, these fiercely devoted servants of Cheliax seek to
further their empire's interests in the region, preparing southern
Varisia for its inevitable return to Chelish rule and subjugating
the land's rebellious barbarians and demihumans.
1) Does that mean Citadel Vraid is IN Korvosa or is it elsewhere, in Cheliax?
2) The Chelaxian Hellknights pay homage to no deity, but rather bend the rigid law and infernal traditions of Hell to their will. I love this idea because of the moral dilemmas that would inevitably arise from such activities, but how does this work with the paladin class? How does a lawful good paladin use anything infernal, especially traditions, to accomplish their goals? Is this like a holy warrior using an unholy weapon to do good?
3) However, I do not think it is difficult to conceive of how a Hellknight could remain lawful good and subjugate the land's rebellious barbarians, since discretion could protect his or her "goodness" and law, in this case, is relative to Chelaxian beliefs and not Varisian. I love this idea too, because it means morally walking a knife's edge throughout the character's career. This aspect of the Order's concept is clear to me, and it explains how paladins and ex-paladins end up working together in the same order, but isn't the concept much too advanced for a 1st level character (it sounds like a prestige class)? If so, why put it in the Player's Guide?
I would prefer to avoid getting bogged down with discussions of the subjectivity of alignment, but I am curious what your (everyone's) thoughts are on the Order of the Nail.
2) The Chelaxian Hellknights pay homage to no deity, but rather bend the rigid law and infernal traditions of Hell to their will. I love this idea because of the moral dilemmas that would inevitably arise from such activities, but how does this work with the paladin class? How does a lawful good paladin use anything infernal, especially traditions, to accomplish their goals? Is this like a holy warrior using an unholy weapon to do good?
I'm fairly certain that the Hellknights are 100% *NOT* Paladins. Perhaps Blackguards, perhaps ex-Paladins (or both?), but not Paladins.
Creative Director
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That said... being a paladin is probably really good training for eventually joining the Hellknights. You'd have to be one of THOSE paladins who's more interested in law than good, though. Most Hellknights are lawful neutral, and they certainly skew toward lawful evil. A lawful good Hellknight isn't completely unheard of, but it'd be pretty unusual.
We'll be revealing more about Hellknights, I suspect, come Pathfinder 7. There's a little more in Pathfinder 2 about them to tide things over until then.
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IMC (assuming it matters for some reason), until we see something more specific, the Hellknights are paladins... of EVIL.
It's near Korvosa. How near is still up in the air. But near.1) Does that mean Citadel Vraid is IN Korvosa or is it elsewhere, in Cheliax?
That said... being a paladin is probably really good training for eventually joining the Hellknights. You'd have to be one of THOSE paladins who's more interested in law than good, though. Most Hellknights are lawful neutral, and they certainly skew toward lawful evil. A lawful good Hellknight isn't completely unheard of, but it'd be pretty unusual.
We'll be revealing more about Hellknights, I suspect, come Pathfinder 7. There's a little more in Pathfinder 2 about them to tide things over until then.
Thank you guys. I think I could grow to like this place. I should add that Pathfinder is the only product in ten years to make me even consider playing something other than my homebrew campaign.
Nonetheless, in light of this information, I think the topic sentence of the paragraph is misleading. "Beyond the servants of individual gods, members of a divergent, grim order of paladins (and ex-paladins) might also be found." pretty clearly sounds like the paragraph is going to be about paladins and ex-paladins who do not worship individual gods. Obviously Hellknights are not intended to be related to paladin PC's then, so why put it in the Player's Guide under that section?
In any case, I think the Hellknights are fascinating and I can't wait to see more.
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Nonetheless, in light of this information, I think the topic sentence of the paragraph is misleading. "Beyond the servants of individual gods, members of a divergent, grim order of paladins (and ex-paladins) might also be found." pretty clearly sounds like the paragraph is going to be about paladins and ex-paladins who do not worship individual gods. Obviously Hellknights are not intended to be related to paladin PC's then, so why put it in the Player's Guide under that section?
Just because you don't want to be associated with a group of people doesn't mean that other people won't associate you with that group if it appears that you fit the part.
Contributor
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Nonetheless, in light of this information, I think the topic sentence of the paragraph is misleading. "Beyond the servants of individual gods, members of a divergent, grim order of paladins (and ex-paladins) might also be found." pretty clearly sounds like the paragraph is going to be about paladins and ex-paladins who do not worship individual gods. Obviously Hellknights are not intended to be related to paladin PC's then, so why put it in the Player's Guide under that section?
We... uh... we were totally predicting the rumor of multi-alignment paladins in 4e.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's it. We're good like that.
^_^
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Creative Director
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Nonetheless, in light of this information, I think the topic sentence of the paragraph is misleading. "Beyond the servants of individual gods, members of a divergent, grim order of paladins (and ex-paladins) might also be found." pretty clearly sounds like the paragraph is going to be about paladins and ex-paladins who do not worship individual gods. Obviously Hellknights are not intended to be related to paladin PC's then, so why put it in the Player's Guide under that section?
Because we were still in the process of figuring out what Hellknights were. And they still might be paladins. Rumor holds that in 4th edition, paladins don't have to be lawful good. In which case, presto! Lawful neutral hellknight paladins. Assuming we switch up to 4th edition, of course.
In any event, there WILL be some sort of association between paladins and Hellknights, be they fallen paladins or variant paladins or whatever. And it's possible that we'll just abandon all that paladin/Hellknight stuff as well. All part of the excitement of growing pains with a new campaign, really...
Just because you don't want to be associated with a group of people doesn't mean that other people won't associate you with that group if it appears that you fit the part.
That is a really good point. I can see using this as an excellent RP device even without more knowledge of the Hellknights.
We... uh... we were totally predicting the rumor of multi-alignment paladins in 4e.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's it. We're good like that.
^_^
Haha - brilliant.
Because we were still in the process of figuring out what Hellknights were. And they still might be paladins. Rumor holds that in 4th edition, paladins don't have to be lawful good. In which case, presto! Lawful neutral hellknight paladins. Assuming we switch up to 4th edition, of course.
In any event, there WILL be some sort of association between paladins and Hellknights, be they fallen paladins or variant paladins or whatever. And it's possible that we'll just abandon all that paladin/Hellknight stuff as well. All part of the excitement of growing pains with a new campaign, really...
I understand, and to be perfectly honest, it IS rather exciting. :-)
But seriously, thank you for such an honest response. I have to respect a guy, and team, who would go on record discussing how unclear something in their product is. I continue to be impressed by Paizo and this product.
Nonetheless, in light of this information, I think the topic sentence of the paragraph is misleading. "Beyond the servants of individual gods, members of a divergent, grim order of paladins (and ex-paladins) might also be found." pretty clearly sounds like the paragraph is going to be about paladins and ex-paladins who do not worship individual gods. Obviously Hellknights are not intended to be related to paladin PC's then, so why put it in the Player's Guide under that section?
Paladins of Freedom (CG), Slaughter (CE), and Tyrrany (LE) are OGL content in the SRD under Variant Character Classes. Just call paladins of tyrrany Hellknights and presto...
I have a Hellbred Paladin in my current campaign that's planning to take levels of Grey Guard from Complete Scoundrel down the line, so I plan on adapting the Order of the Nail to my own campaign. He even doesn't follow a god already, so I figure it's a perfect fit.