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The very title of the newest adventure path, "Rise of the Rune Lords," suggests that epic characters existed at one point in time in Varisia. However, where are they now?
Other than the fabled "Rune Lords," are there other epic characters?
Do you agree with the view that being "epic" in Varisia (Pathfinder) is not just a matter of accumulating sufficient XP?
I hope there aren't any epic characters running around Varisa, or even Golarion in general. One of the things I like about Eberron is that the PCs are the movers and shakers of the world. The PCs have to save the town/city/world, because there is no one else to do it.
I would think that yes it's possible for there to be epic characters in the world of golarion. But, I would also think that they should be very few and far between. I think there's something out there in the setting which gets to be very attractive to characters . . . retirement. Epic characters seem to ignore retirement, I've no clue why.
In sandpoint alone, off the top of my head I can name three npc's that are listed as retired adventurers, and they aren't even close to 20th level.
As appealing as epic status is, I think it can be stressed that retirment is just as an appealing an option, or more so. But ussually the retirement option is more of a story driven option than attempting to go epic.
I'm more hoping that Varisia does not go the 'epic after 20th' route but more the 'high-level' 21st-30th route that was the standard pre-3rd edition, saving epic/apotheosis for post-30th level. (Although personally I'd dual-class to a fare-thee-well before letting some chuckleheads apotheosize me ... oh, yeah, done that, it was a blast, STILL got apotheosized by a few chuckleheads, muttergrumblebitterpillswallowed...)
It would be nice for a change (as with Eberron it would seem) to have the PCs be the FIRST to 'go past the barrier' (depending upon the rules set used), setting the stage for latter years of a GM's campaign to drop in character names from a decade or two past that have become major historical/religious/gawdly figures in his/her/its game world.
In the final chapter of Rise of the Rune Lords, the PCs have to confront the Rune Lord of Greed. To take on the 15th level party, he would have to be fairly close to epic. But not sure if he'll actually be over 20th level and have epic feats and such. Probably not.
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PCs being more powerful then the leaders of evil kingdoms, goodly kingdoms, and so on is just... *yawn* Every world has it's Merlin, it's Arthur, etc.
And if any campaign setting is epic level character problem solver heavy it's because those campaign settings are run by companies who have designers that choose to have the problems of the campaign setting solved in their NOVELS instead of bringing those problems into the game world for the PCs to play in and solve.
People like Eberron right now because there are barely any novels and only a few supplements. It's not even 10 years old, hell it's not even 5 years old. Wait until it's got a little history behind it and 10 years of supplements and novels to go through. Assuming it continues to get published, by it's 10th year anniversary.. you'll have NPCs running around that WERE 10-15 when the setting started who are became 20+ because of system changes, storylines progression, etc.
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The only thing I'm worried about is PCs in the APs. Most of the Dungeon APs took place over the course of a year tops. So what do the adventurers do with the rest of their lives after that? They gain 15 levels or more in a year and then just do nothing for the next 50-60 or in the case of Elves much much longer?
I'm hoping there'll be an AP that takes place over the course of like 50 years.
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So what do the adventurers do with the rest of their lives after that?
They buy a tavern some where, hang their sword/axe/hammer on the wall above or behind the bar, and live the good life.
If they're a wizard they go find a tower to dwell in, a cleric founds a temple, druids and rangers find nice little groves to retire to.
Some "adventurers" retire before they even get to level 10. ;)
It's also the DMs job to find something for the adventurers to do after all.
I'm not really a fan of non-pc super heros. aka epic level good npcs.
Ditto here. Elminster lives in infamy, courtesy of an overzealous buddy of ours, who usually began his FR campaigns with, "So, Elminster tells you to do...blah, blah, blah..."
Guys like Mordenkainen, however, I always felt filled a fascinating role, being that he's not always out to make the "good" choices, but those that fit his interpretation of "balance".
That said, I'm hoping that the only epic characters that show up in Golarion do so in either Pathfinder issues or GameMastery modules, preferably as enemies to be brought low by the PCs.
I'm not really a fan of non-pc super heros. aka epic level good npcs.
Me neither, at least not the way that Forgotten Realms used to present them.
If they existed in such a way that they were de-emphasized, that would be one thing.. but I usually found them to:
A.) Steal PC thunder
B.) engender inadequacy ("we'll never fight evil gods, rescue demi-gods and otherwise save the universe like Harper/Jedi/lEEt epic NPC heroes")
C.) minimize the PC's otherwise heroic efforts. ("it was only an insane wizard we stopped, it wasn't really a big deal or nuthin'")
I think those early campign developers forgot something when they extolled the exploits of high level NPC good guys, and that is "Nobody plays a fantasy role-playing game to feel like a loser. The real world is quite capable of doing that on it's own."
Players love to feel that they really accomplished something, so I prefer opportunities for them to earn their way into those epic roles.. not be minor bit players in someone else's cosmic struggle..
And when it happens, and it all comes together.. those players will remember that campaign for years to come. That's a good feeling for a GM.
Unless Golarion is a new world, or something has killed off all the Epic individuals within the last 50-100 years, there had better be at least a few, because it breaks believability (to me at least) if the PCs are the first individuals ever (or in a really long time) to hit 21st level.
Even if only 1% of the population of a D&D world ever reaches 21st level, that's still going to be 1 epic character for every 100 people. Given that the population of Golarion is likely to be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, that means you're going to have thousands of epic characters, with a few traveling in groups of @4, just like the PCs (whom aren't the only adventurers, or shouldn't be).
If the PCs have the potential to reach epic levels, so does every other adventurer in the world, and it's almost certain that at least some of them have done so, usually before the PCs.
And as for PCs being overshadowed and redundant due to the presence of epic characters, hogwash.
If a Forgotten Realms DM doesn't want Elminster to personally intervene and end the threat of a mad wizard, it's really easy to say that the Sage of Shadowdale is busy with something that is currently beyond the PC's ability to handle, and is unable to deal with the wizard, thus allowing the PCs to have the limelight themselves. Elminster, as an NPC, should only show up in games to provide aid or information to the PCs, leave his "world saving exploits" for the novels.
There's also nothing preventing PCs from getting to the point where they are movers and shakers of their world, alongside the already existing epic NPCs. Unless you decide that said NPCs actively try to keep anyone else from getting that powerful, in which case the PCs will have an even greater reason to become epic, if only to upset the status quo and possibly overthrow the current "top dogs".
And as for PCs being overshadowed and redundant due to the presence of epic characters, hogwash.
Hogwash?
That's your opinion buddy. Duly noted.
As for me, I'll put it in more pragmatic terms. I don't want much of Pathfinder's page count dedicated to your high level Epic Hero NPCs. (And you'll note I said 'much' not 'any at all')
If you want them and think they're great, I encourage you to make them up yourself. Nothing wrong with that. Then I won't have to call them hogwash. I just don't consider them a good investment in the page count.
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Even if only 1% of the population of a D&D world ever reaches 21st level, that's still going to be 1 epic character for every 100 people. Given that the population of Golarion is likely to be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, that means you're going to have thousands of epic characters, with a few traveling in groups of @4, just like the PCs (whom aren't the only adventurers, or shouldn't be).
1% of the population as epic NPCs? Or 1% of the adventurers' population as epic? With the adventurers being probably less than 1% of the population, something like 0.1% or even less. That would put epic NPCs at 0.001% or 1/100,000 which is probably closer to be a realistic possibility. Otherwise, epic battles would happen daily in every part of the world, and you would need an increadible amount of epic monsters and epic evil lords in the world, which would devastate everyting and spread chaos everywhere.
I agree Epic NPC cannot be totaly absent, but I also agree that we don't need to get 10-page blocks about them neither (unless they are the next ennemy the PCs will face, and 10 page would even then be a little too much if he's going to die soon...).
For good/neutral NPCs, I think that the Pathfinder Journal thing is probably the way I see them described to me. As a source of historical information!
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There have always been "high-level" (i.e. higher level than the PCs) characters in my campaigns. They just don't play a pivitol role in my adventures. They are usually semi-retired, and know that one day, they'll be gone. Thus they don't go out and deal with every awakening demigod. They find suitable replacements, and sic them on the awakening demigod to "season" them a bit - a kind of passing on of the torch.
If the big gun NPCs are stealing the PCs' thunder, that's on the DM, not on the source.
Every world is a big place, with lots of history and dangerous things going on. It's easy enough to have the big guys doing "other things" while the PCs handle this particular threat.
Even Elminster can't be everywhere at once.
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I'd rather have allmost NO epic evil/good characters, the PC's face an epic badguy? OK, no problem with that but have him level up during the game, if he was Epic Evil all the time why didn't he usurp the world before?
Also the Elminster 'I'm too busy with something grander' excuse is also crap in my book. If I'm a player and my DM comes of with that, sorry, I want in on the greater Evil scheme. In AoW what could be bigger than Kyuss making his comeback on the material plane?
Epic npc's imho do nothing than bring along a lot of trouble with them.
Maybe the "Epic Evil Bad Guy" hasn't taken over the world because even he will get worn down by the nigh-infinite hordes of "Almost Epic" and "Someday Epic" adventurers who are bound to show up at his doorstep.
Or, as you'd prefer, he actually wasn't epic until just recently, and is still ironing out his plans for world domination (which, incidentally, takes a while in a fantasy setting).
As for "too busy", I don't suppose you cry foul when Superman isn't able to save the day because he's "doing something else", thus forcing those unfortunate heroes who aren't as powerful as he is to save the day.
Even if a setting has a hundred Epic characters, I guarantee you they won't be everywhere, or even know about everything that goes on. If Varisia is fairly remote compared to the rest of Golarion, and has so far been rather peaceful (nothing to draw the attention of demon lord killing adventurers), then when something does pop up (like Karzoug), it's up to the adventurers who are currently within the immediate area to handle it.
Even on Earth (IIRC, smaller than Golarion), if I gave 2,000 people around the world 1-foot long golden keyes, and sent a group of 4 (or even 100 groups of 4) out to find them with a 1 year timelimit, I'd be lucky to get even half of the keyes back. Simply because the world is that big, and people will miss people they are looking for.
Mainly because, barring high-level communication magic, by the time the information reached the Epic heroes, it's already to late (Think about how hard it would be to find a specific person, group of four people, who are wandering around the Amazon without modern technology), thus requiring the PCs (who are fortuatously in the heart of the troubled area) to handle the threat.
And really, if PCs can reach Epic levels, what's so hard to accept about a few adventuring NPCs with the drive to do the same? In a world that has existed for thousands, if not tens of thousands of years, with an established culture of some sort for the majority of that time, it makes no sense that the PCs are the first to breach the "Epic barrier".
Hogwash?
That's your opinion buddy. Duly noted.
Which makes it no more or less valid than your opinion, I've just never seen any of the "problems" you cite epic characters causing.
And I will agree with you that Pathfinder shouldn't have much information about epic characters, a description, personality, class breakdown, and maybe a generic combat action breakdown (Epic Fighter 1 likes his longsword and shortsword style) should be sufficient, unless the individual is meant to accompany the PCs (who should be just as powerful).
With just that information, we can do the rest in detailing the NPC, if it becomes necessary.
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I think people tend to forget why high level NPCs exist. For the Forgotten Realms, Elminster wasn't supposed to exist, not in the fashion he exists today. Elminster started off as the guy in the corner page of the supplement giving the DMs and Players useful tips and information for RP use in the Realms. It was TSR that pushed Ed Greenwood into making Elminster an actual mover and player in the Realms.
As for why we need epic NPCs in worlds, it's quite simple, there are always bigger bads. Recently, in a Forgotten Realms novel; Swords of Dragonsfire (book 2 of a trilogy about how the Knights of Myth Drannor became the Knights of Myth Drannor), the Knights were causing major problems for the Zhentrium. At this point in our story the Knights range from probably levels 5-10. Eventually the Knights piss off Manshoon who shows up to take care of the Knights himselves. How exactly do you write a scene where 5 level 10 characters deal with an Epic bady like Manshoon? Well first of all you don't, he doesn't show up where the Knights are. But when he shows up in Cormyr you not only have Vangerhaust who's responsible for Cormyr, but you also have Blackstaff show up ready to start throwing spells. Just as they're about to unleash hell on eachother, Elminster shows up and puts all 3 of them in their place.
The point is, Epic level good guys exist to keep the Epic Level bad guys in check. If there's no threat to the epic bad guy, when the first 2 or 3 plots fail to accomplish the goal, it's reasonable to assume he's going to do it himself. Well something has to stop him and it's certainly not going to be the low level npcs.
One of the reasons I was drawn into Golarion was the whole "world being created through the modules", which is akin to how Greyhawk came to be. Now, I know that world-building back then was quite different to what it is now, and Paizo needs to do some world-building besides the modules to keep the audience happy, but I would still retain that feel.
My point? I'm no Greyhawk expert, but isn't the big players in Greyhawk (Mordenkainen, Tenser etc) players from Gygax' old campaign? What if characters from Paizo's own playtesting campaign sort of became the big, epic players in Golarion? That would have been cool.
If you use the NPC generation rules, specifically the "highest-level locals" rules, presented in the 3.5 DMG (p.139) Epic npcs are more or less a none issue. The highest level (for npcs with pc class levels) is 20, which was clearly done by design (refer to the paragraph "Highest-level npc in the community for each class"). It is possible to epic level Commoners and Experts with these rules, but I doubt a level 24 commoner is going around slaying deities. With these rules, less than 1% of the population has PC class level. It works out to something like .000001% of the population is 20th level fighters.
Even on Earth (IIRC, smaller than Golarion), if I gave 2,000 people around the world 1-foot long golden keyes, and sent a group of 4 (or even 100 groups of 4) out to find them with a 1 year timelimit, I'd be lucky to get even half of the keyes back. Simply because the world is that big, and people will miss people they are looking for.
Clearly, you have never heard of Stanley Milgram's Small world experiment (finally, a use for my psychology degree.) Granted, there are some very strong criticisms about the experiment, but it really does offer a counter point to the scenario you describe above. Keep in mind, that those involved in this experiment were mostly passive actors, leading me to conclude that a group of "active actors" could easily recover 50% to 85% of the golden keys.
Which makes it no more or less valid than your opinion
My reaction could hardly be surprising. When you bandy words like 'Hogwash' about, you will draw a strong reaction. I'm happy to leave it that and discuss the actual topic, but let us not side step all responsibility for what we say, or the need to respect each other.
I've just never seen any of the "problems" you cite epic characters causing.
Granted, but we all have different experiences. Also, it's as much my reaction as a GM, reading the material as it was the reactions of players.
That is, someone, somewhere else, doing something more meaningful and interesting than what the players are doing. And another poster had an excellent point, that was as much WOTC trying to drive the sale of novels as it was the actual gaming product.
And I will agree with you that Pathfinder shouldn't have much information about epic characters, a description, personality, class breakdown, and maybe a generic combat action breakdown (Epic Fighter 1 likes his longsword and shortsword style) should be sufficient, unless the individual is meant to accompany the PCs (who should be just as powerful).
With just that information, we can do the rest in detailing the NPC, if it becomes necessary.
And I can agree with you on that as well.
As someone pointed out, such Epic individuals must exist, and to deny that is unreasonable and muddles with suspension of disbelief.
I just have this outlook towards the gaming products I like the best..
1.) That they serve to help me the GM, run the best game possible for my players. (The players being the focus).
2.) That they immerse me in a rich and detailed background.
Here's the catch- Number 2 is not to eclipse Number 1. You can do both in balanced proportion, but don't you dare let the later come before the former.
That's my primary concern about Epic characters. How will they make my game better for my players. If the writer/publisher can have them and enrich the PC experience, hey- I won't argue! If it's some background color that is kept within a reasonable proportion, sure.. okay, so long as it's not too much. However, when you start getting material about NPCs that makes the GM actually wish he had the Adventure Path that the NPCs must be on; then I think the writer/publishers has lost sight of the goal.
Also, as J. Jacobs acknowledged, Pathfinder is a premium product. To his credit, he doesn't call it expensive, but concedes that it might be out of the desired price range for some people. He has to be a good steward of those 96 pages in every Chapter and make sure the're filled with value for the subscriber/buyer. My opinion, as just one subscriber, is that a lot of word count devoted to Epic "Elminster" style NPCs is not providing good value (with the caveats I mentioned in the paragraph above).