Heathy, if you peek in here, I just wanted to say that I get exactly what you were saying a few months ago about just wanting to vent without people trying to reason you into seeing the "big picture."
I wasn't quite as despondent as you were then, but I'm hoping that I wasn't too annoying to you or anyone else that needed to vent at the time. I completely get what you were talking about now. I just want to mourn my era in the Realms. I don't really care if its better for WOTC's bottom line to screw everything current in the Realms, I just want to be upset that the Realms I've been following for 20 years is pretty much gone.
Anyway, apologies if I ever squelched your venting.
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I just fail to see what all this schism, all this alienation, all this purposeful fragmentation of the damn game is for. It's like, I swear it's like, every week somebody's going, "hey. Let's eff over the FR guys now. Let's plug a bomb up their you-know-what's. We can learn from their turmoil, and two weeks from now, we'll stick it to the Eberron guys." That's really the sense I'm getting here. That's what I'm left with.
That's very gracious and emotionally aware of you, Knight. You're a dude.
I didn't quite understand why when some Paizo friends were a bit hurt (by disastrously insensitive PR at a company that handles our scene, not just our product), people had to jump their sh!t and go on using the phrase "b&~%+ing and whining' as if they wore a badge of honor that gave them special authority to act like their own disapproving dads.
The hubris involved in telling someone else how to feel about something is in the redline. When I see someone upset I do my best not to smack them in the eye. I don't know... that's just me.
Thanks Heathy, and Jade. The thing that is strange to me is that, as James Jaccobs said when we were discussing the succubus/erinyes thing, there was a way to do this without creating a rift in the fans.
As it stands, now you will have pro erinyes and pro "old Realms" fans, when all they had to do was not introduce the succubus and hey, here is what most people really wanted in the Realms . . . make a slight (10 year or so) jump, get rid of some of the NPCs that people had a problem with, leave most of the countries and power groups alone, and declare from this point on the novels won't deal with anything "Realms shaking," i.e. they will be like the old 1st/2nd edition more narrowly focused "smaller" stories.
Hey, look, new starting point, clean slate, no massive issues.
At any rate, I wasn't going out of my way to squelch anyone, though the generic "WOTC are Nazis" thing was bugging me, but I was trying to be optimistic when the magazines were first shut down, not so much because I wanted them too, but because I was hoping after the mags and the DragonLance license, there weren't any more shoes to fall . . .
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I think FR is your golden thing, just as maybe those two mag's were mine. It's a real b~#%~ when there's just one thing in your life. Just one little innocuous thing. And you can't have it. They have to f%%* you out of it. That'll teach ya for having one little golden thing, man.
Yeah, it started with Greyhawk, progressed to Dungeon and Dragon mag, and now I fear for the game I love. My fear is that, just like with ToB, we will be required to "tap" cards that represent our PC's powers and that D&D will turn into a hybrid Magic:the Gathering RPG.
Once they decide to say "F*$k them" to one group of fans, when can I expect them to stop and care about what I want? Answer:don't hold your breath.One little thing can ruin someone's free time.
FH
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I was about to shut my yap entirely about it until the whole "digital mini's" spiel. I'm 38. I don't do Yu-gi-oh cards. What the hell do I wants with a bunch of digital minis? I want my magazines.
And then, there's a dude going, "you don't have to buy it." So then I say, "no. I don't have to buy it." So you say that, and there's some other dude going, "I want it in writing you're not going to buy it. I'm tired of all your whining."
What, none of you like some one trying to sell sunflowers at a funeral? ;-)
What the people trying to help you "get over it" don't realize, all they are doing is not helping.
But maybe some of them learned better this time.
I hear you Mike...
But let me take the opportunity to thank Paizo.
As a company, and a group of individuals, you have handled these boards wonderfully through some tough times for the hobbyists.
It goes to show there are, at least, a couple of humans over there that knew that people were going to mourn some of the changes.
And, almost without exception, have let them mourn in their own ways. Only stepping in when the lashing out became truly misguided and / or unfair. And even then, just long enough to correct some incorrect assumptions.
You (all) have answered our questions as clear as you are able to, and have consistently presented a feeling of sincerity and compassion. (Side note: Even if it is a false facade, it is still very much appreciated. ;-) )
And while I am at it, thank you Mr. McArtor, for "holding down the fort" during the GenCon announcement. You held a position that I am not envious of, during a time I would have almost expected Paizo to be all but shut down. (I wouldn't hold it against you guys to all take off during GenCon to enjoy yourselves. Even if it was a working "vacation.")
It is "little details" like that that will keep you a strong fan base, regardless of the hobby landscape.
I know I can speak for many when I say "I will continue to support Paizo, as much as I am able to, no matter what decisions are made to continue forward."
Thank you all.
I didn't quite understand why when some Paizo friends were a bit hurt (by disastrously insensitive PR at a company that handles our scene, not just our product), people had to jump their sh!t and go on using the phrase "b*%%&ing and whining' as if they wore a badge of honor that gave them special authority to act like their own disapproving dads.
Notice how many of those posts are nothing more than 'deal with it' plus some name calling and derogatory adjectives sprinkled on.
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I didn't quite understand why when some Paizo friends were a bit hurt (by disastrously insensitive PR at a company that handles our scene, not just our product), people had to jump their sh!t and go on using the phrase "b*%%&ing and whining' as if they wore a badge of honor that gave them special authority to act like their own disapproving dads.Notice how many of those posts are nothing more than 'deal with it' plus some name calling and derogatory adjectives sprinkled on.
My favorite is "take your whiny ass over to the Wizards board."
Aww, hell. They'll just shut down every thread I start...
At least you would be giving them something to do. You know…other than messin' with the space time continuum.
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I hate to be an ignoramous, but I've grown tired of reading the Wizards boards and getting spoon fed the whole 'our new stuff is sooo gonna knock your socks off that you won't even miss your old stuff' line. Did they announce that they're killing FR or something? I was running with the impression that FR and Eberron would continue to be the primary settings.
Or are they just making a few 'tweaks' again and accidentally/purposefully twisting nipples?
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(Sigh) It's just a few countries - jeez, stop whining.
Seriously, I don't really get what is up with WotC. They seem determined to really annoy lots of loyal fans. I don't mind the changes so much - I'm not a Realms nut and can probably live with it. But it all seems so high handed. Haven't they ever considered a bit of consultation? It's almost like "We own D@D. You play it our way or not at all."
Maybe this is intended to make commercial sense, i.e. to drive sales of books. But we all already own a very good version of D@D. I am not an anti-4E zealot at all. But this seems too much, too soon.
I imagine part of it is to entice new gamers and part of it is to put their own stamp on the game.
I moved away from setting based games a long time ago. When I have good game mechanics, I can get my setting from anywhere. It does not really matter to me how badly they rape the mythos. I will use whatever I like the best anyway whether that be 1e, 2e 3.5e, some other game or my own homebrew. There is no shortage of creative fluff out there.
I do believe, however, there is a shortage of good game mechanics.
It's almost like "We own D@D. You play it our way or not at all."
That sounds like something some old hippie who's about to lose his own company would say.
Oh, wait....
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I started this whole process thinking I might be ready for the new mechanics of the 4th edition. I was remainining open and optimistic despite my grave disappointment at losing Dungeon and Dragon as print magazines. Now I have reached point where I think I will simply take what I need from the SRD and go from there. It might mean buying the game it might not.
Overall though I feel the fluff aspects are more important to the game than the crunch. Do I change a number of things in my home campaign? Yes. Is my continuity exactly that depicted in mainline D&D products? No. I change things based off of my player's actions so my D&D multiversal history is different than what is core. I change little details here and there to make it fit the past history of my campaigns.
I haven't been in touch with the Great Wheel or WotC published worlds as of late because the games I have been running either change the cosmology or take place on prison planes (Ptolus) and I have not thought much of what lies beyond those prison walls. But I recently started a Savage Tide campaign so I am playing in Greyhawk with the Great Wheel. I am back in the fold so to speak.
Changing details that I know I need to alter and WotC making sweeping changes with bad reasoning are two different things. Keeping creatures and worlds inline with past D&D lore not only helps old players make the transition easier but can be designed in such a way as to keep the learning curve for new players less steep. To change fluff material dramatically without regard for continuity is not just an opportunity to play the heavy handed designer card but it also shows a certain amout of laziness on their part. They don't want to take the time to make this material easier for new people to grasp they just want to change it and not worry about the little details of the past.
I don't play in the FR but I know if a world I enjoyed suddenly saw a massive jump in time, a jump that changed nations and rewrote the world, I would be more than a little upset. I don't mind when new elements are added to a setting that follow logically from the current history and political environment. I can alter or smooth such a transition to fit in my game. I hate when metaplot jumps are introduced to help accomodate a new edition or are designed to create a break in everything that came before. I always had an issue with the Greyhawk Wars because of what they did to the Flanaess and I have ignored everything the RPGA has done to the setting with the Living Greyhawk campaign. But FR always seemed the primary victim of these major changes and I sympathize with fans who keep seeing the world they love warped through seemingly arbitrary decisions.
The more and more I hear about 4e the less I want to buy into it. Of course everything is optional, that is not the point. When someone says "quit whining and b$$&~ing, you don't have to buy it, use it, etc." they are missing the point. Of course DMs know they have the right to change anything in their game. These sort of official changes can have a bad effect on a game, especially when bringing in new players who are reading the new material. Mechanics can be hand waved into a current game by simply saying wizards or rogues have always operated this way. Rarely have I seen the need to create fluff reasons for rules changes. Fluff changes for their own sake are harder to deal with especially when they dramatically change personal campaign details.
The DM's choice, of course, is to ignore the change but this creates a cascade effect with later product, rendering them less useful. It is one thing for me to make minor tweaks or to replace names based off the history of my past campaigns but it is quite another to force the hordes of DMs who use core D&D precepts in their games to make changes, either for or against the new material. Why would I want to buy something that I might need to completely overhaul in any case? Especially if I was one of those DMs who tried to remain core and I just had the rug torn out from beneath me.
So I think those who are upset have a right to be upset. I sympathize and understand that feeling.
Sadly, it's all about the almighty dollar when your company is owned by a big corporation and not a bunch of people doing it for love of the hobby.
Reading these posts helps me to appreciate different perspectives on things. Thanks, folks.
Contributor
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You (all) have answered our questions as clear as you are able to, and have consistently presented a feeling of sincerity and compassion. (Side note: Even if it is a false facade, it is still very much appreciated. ;-) )
It's not false. We understand what you guys are going through, because (at least with the 4e stuff) we're going through it with you in real time. We're all gamers here so we can totally relate with the unease and cautious optimism. :)
And while I am at it, thank you Mr. McArtor, for "holding down the fort" during the GenCon announcement. You held a position that I am not envious of, during a time I would have almost expected Paizo to be all but shut down.
*thumbs up*
I know I can speak for many when I say "I will continue to support Paizo, as much as I am able to, no matter what decisions are made to continue forward."
Yay! Thanks Disenchanter! :)
I know I can speak for many when I say "I will continue to support Paizo, as much as I am able to, no matter what decisions are made to continue forward."Yay! Thanks Disenchanter!
I'm just here for the bubblegum.
I didn't quite understand why when some Paizo friends were a bit hurt (by disastrously insensitive PR at a company that handles our scene, not just our product), people had to jump their sh!t and go on using the phrase "b*%%&ing and whining' as if they wore a badge of honor that gave them special authority to act like their own disapproving dads.Notice how many of those posts are nothing more than 'deal with it' plus some name calling and derogatory adjectives sprinkled on.
I'm suprised they didn't add:
"Get a haircut and get a real job." -- George Thoroughgood
Implied derogatory adjectives?
Yay! Thanks Disenchanter! :)
Heh. No need to celebrate too hard. ;-)
It isn't like it will take a lot of hard work on my part.
There are a great deal of "edition neutral" products available. Map packs, item cards, critical hit / fumble decks, etc.. Not to mention the apparel section. I might even be convinced to shop your DVD section... But that would require weening myself off of Amazon's speedy deliveries. :-P