I ran my players through Shackled City, and now we are nearly done with Age of Worms. I had been planning on running Savage Tide afterwards, but with all this good looking Pathfinder and GameMastery stuff coming out, I'm not sure what I want to do.
1. How does Savage Tide compare with Age of Worms and Shackled City, as far as length and fun goes?
2. When does Savage Tide take place compared to Age of Worms (which was like a year after Shackled City)?
3. Are there any major connections between Savage Tide and Shackled City/Age of Worms?
4. Any other tips for me if I do decide to run this Adventure Path?
Thanks for any help.
1. How does Savage Tide compare with Age of Worms and Shackled City, as far as length and fun goes?
Personally, I don't think it holds a candle to AoW, but it seems wildly popular, especially among "classic" module lovers (due to the Isle of Dread setting).
2. When does Savage Tide take place compared to Age of Worms (which was like a year after Shackled City)?
Seems to be about the same idea, in fact, in one part of the adventure there is a festival dedicated to the end of Kyuss.
3. Are there any major connections between Savage Tide and Shackled City/Age of Worms?
Celeste is back, there are a few references salted around the A.P.
4. Any other tips for me if I do decide to run this Adventure Path?
Prepare your party for a darker campaign, and have a long talk with anyone considering playing a pally.
Personally, I don't think it holds a candle to AoW, but it seems wildly popular, especially among "classic" module lovers (due to the Isle of Dread setting).
My group has only been playing seriously since 3e, so no "classic" lovers here.
Seems to be about the same idea, in fact, in one part of the adventure there is a festival dedicated to the end of Kyuss.
I noticed that there is a Vanderboren as a prominent NPC in Savage Tide. How does she relate to the Vanderboren's in Shackled City?
As for connections
- One year after the finale of AoW - in installment #2 there is a festival going on commemorating the vanquishing of Kyuss the year before, the "Wormfall Parade"
- Connections include some local flavour (Cauldron being 60 miles inland from the starting point of Sasserine ), a family connection ( the Major "McGuffin" NPC is a Vanderboren, Celeste (who will pop up only much later in the AP.
As for length.... about 3-4 sessions (at 5 hours) /installment around here ----> 36-48 sessions for the grand total, at our playing speed of 2-3 times a month, easily 1+ years. Unless they blow themselves up before =)
As for quality.....
To be honest, I consider the STAP far superior to the AoW ( so do most of the players I know who play(ed) both ). Obviously mileage varies. Far more foreshadowing, early placement of subtle clues (instead of the big warning sign "KYUSS IS COMING" ) and some rather nice options for diplomacy and intrigue throughout. Plus, a nice, hateable set of recurring villains (first Rowyn, later Vanthus, not to mention a love-hate relationsship with old Macanteth ).
You also get to interact in meaningful ways with a lot of movers and shakers in the multiverse (especially chaotic ones ) instead of simply hacking through them, which is considered an attraction for some...
What might cause problems is the fact that the STAP thematics change tact twice within the course of itself ( once from urban-based "Swashbuckling" to "Exploration" of a jungle island/Lost World, then to warfare and shannangians in the Abyss, let's call it "Demonbashing" ), which has some players running concepts dedicated to a specific setting grinding their teeth, when the "environment" changes.
I have read the 2 other Aventure Path's but did not DM them. When I looked at this one I defintely got the feeling that it was the best one yet.
The multiple settings, the story-line to me were all superior to the other Path's, but that is just my opinon of course.
Also not ever DM'd a tropical/ocean influenced campaign was also an attraction.
The timeframe is very true though. It is going to take my party until the end of Jan to finish at the rate they are going and we started the first week of January this year. 8 months to get through the Lightless Depths and they have stayed focused. I have heard some other groups are only at Tides of Dread at this point. I think the payoff at the end will be worth it though, being 20th level and going against Demogorgon will be a sight to see!!!!!
My feeling is AoW was the better AP but there are many who think otherwise.
I think AoW had higher highs an lower lows then STAP. It was a lot less consistent. Still there where some fantastic scenes in AoWs that were never quite repeated in STAP. Something like the battle between the Giants and Dragons in Kings of the Rift. Its the kind of scene that transforms your home game into being a bunch of friends having a good time around the table to players almost envisioning themselves on the big screen.
The whole thing is just so epic. You get the same sort of feeling in Spire of Long Shadows except here its a sense of great power and ancient mystery and finally there is a battle against a God in a city caught in a strangle hold of evil. Oh yeah - the cheering crowds and and excitement of the Arena in Champions Belt is another scene that will likely live on in the players memory long after the campaign is over. On the downside there where whole adventures that never quite seemed to work. Motivation could be a real problem and interaction with NPCs often seemed very weak.
STAP is much more consistent. More or less all of the adventures seem to work right from the get go. You might have to fudge a little here and there but your much less likely to be forcing the players to act illogically (one big exception to this that I can think of). NPCs are so much more then people giving the PCs Fedex quests and the players will interact with the world around them in a much more believable way.
Still - as an experienced DM I have faith I can fix the weaker portions of a STAP but without the tools its a lot harder to make it truely epic in the way that AOWs was. Finally I felt that on average AOW got better and better with every adventure along the path the epic just kept building to a bigger and more awe inspiring climaxs. I never really got that feeling so much with STAP. The stuff you fight will be more nasty later on but the stakes themselves don't have that rising cresendo that one got in AoW. In AoW the situation starts off small but builds until armies clash and cities rock. With STAP its all pretty even keel for much of the AP until pretty much in the very last adventure suddenly big things are stirring.
All of the above said, they are both excellent APs and well worth your time.
@jeremy
interesting take on the AoW, pretty enlightening summary of a different way of evaluating the APs. For me the entire AoW "build up" was far too much fighting, and the numerous less stellar installments overshadowed the more note-worthy ones. Personally, I did not really like any of the installments after "Spire".... "Library" and "Wyrmcrawl Fissure".... sorry, I would give those a pass any day.... And I really disliked the second visit to the "Whispering Cairn".
What makes the STAP so incredible for _me_ is the potential for great role-playing and dealing with less-than-credible allies ( I think the reunion with Harliss will be another highlight.... two of the players really want her hide for sending Drevorazh after Lavinia, but on the other hand, they need her help... to rescue Lavinia ! ), the "do as you please" parts where the players have a couple of missions which they can resolve in any order as their fancy takes them, not to forget the set-piece battles like that in ToD.... plus pirates, planar travel and succubi galore always make for great fun.
as for the OP
STAP is not your classic campaign and has hordes of rarely seen foes and other opposition (Linnorms, Koprus, a lot of "first appearance" critters from MM-II and FF.... Bullywugs !). It also takes place in environments less often visited. It also - pretty important to my mind - is far less Greyhak-centric than AoW and easily adapted to the FRs, Eberron or any homebrewn setting than AoW.
Which makes it tremendous fun to play/run, but less conventional, and players who look forward to "old favourites in new situations" may be less than happy with it.
No orcs, ogres, bugbears, trolls, hags..... few undead, hardly any golems.... not a single dragon or giant until the very final installments ! Truly fresh !
Two words: Damage Reduction.
One of the main reason I love running encounters in this campaign is a predominance of DR amongst enemies. It prompted one character to take the Sense Weakness feat (Draconomicon) to help get around it.
There is, of course, plenty to mention about the wonderful STAP--my gamers are on the brink of finishing SWW, and are thrilled--but I recommend going into this AP with either an experienced crew of gamers (yourself included), or with the glossary bookmarked to things like improved grab and diseases. Great AP, but challenging/rewarding to run and play.
I ran my players through Shackled City, and now we are nearly done with Age of Worms. I had been planning on running Savage Tide afterwards, but with all this good looking Pathfinder and GameMastery stuff coming out, I'm not sure what I want to do.
Mostly, it depends on the interests and gaming style of your group. Shackled City and Age of Worms were "classic" campaigns. Savage Tide is, in some aspects, an atypical campaign. After the first two adventures, the party is more or less on their own with limited access to city/magic/temple support. Also, one of the central themes is "the lesser of two evils;" the party will be forced in many situations to work with evil creatures/NPCs to accomplish their goals against other, even worse, evil creatures/NPCs.
1. How does Savage Tide compare with Age of Worms and Shackled City, as far as length and fun goes?
Length is comparable to the previous APs. The pacing is much more flexible, given the higher degree of NPC interaction. Fun is fairly consistent. If your group isn't into swashbuckling adventure/exploration or doesn't handle moral ambiguity well, they may have problems, however.
2. When does Savage Tide take place compared to Age of Worms (which was like a year after Shackled City)?
About a year or so after "Dawn of a New Age."
3. Are there any major connections between Savage Tide and Shackled City/Age of Worms?
No major connections, although there are some minor connections and reappearing NPCs. Lavinia Vanderboren (the party's patron and a major plot enabler) is the niece of the Vanderborens in Shackled City. Both Celeste and Sureya show up later on.
4. Any other tips for me if I do decide to run this Adventure Path?
Read the adventures and discuss the themes with your players. If your group is into "Pirates of the Carribean" and/or enjoys dealing with shady situations where there is not always a clear-cut "good" resolution, they may enjoy it.
Thanks for all the information guys.
I've pretty much decided that I'm not going to run Savage Tide (yet). I've read a bit of it, and I just can't get as excited about it as I am about the Pathfinder stuff. I may end up coming back and running it one day... especially if they are able to release it as a hardcover.