One of my new playersd wanted to play a binder, which was cool but I was wondering what the interaction between one channeling Tenebreous would be in the presence of Orcus. I know the answer is really what is cool for my camapign and the player but I would like some ide3as from other DM's and possibley higher ups. Again thanks for any input.
If I were to run that situation, I'd have Orcus be able to sense Tenebrous within the binder, and have him talk directly to the vestige - in a VERY mocking way. Basically, he'd find the fact that Tenebrous still exists but only as a "quasi-being" within a binder to be endlessly amusing.
As for the vestige's reaction, I'd have the binder feel a strange sensation - a vestige's emotion, in this case burning rage - trying to push its way into reality through the back of his/her mind. Not mechanical impact and the player can do whatever they want, but I would try to get across the point that the vestige is enraged and has formed probably a stronger connection than normal in it's attempt to reach into reality and strike Orcus.
I can see the relation between the two being less antagonistic (seeing as how they were the same being), but personally I would go with the spin of Orcus mocking Tenebrous and Tenebrous wanting the binder to rip out Orcus' throat.
Now that I think about a less antagonistic version you could make it nice and surreal, you could have Orcus sense the vestige, and remark how curious that is. Then have Orcus reach out in the air towards the binder, sort of feeling around, then with a yank, a ghostly image of the vestige appears (and the binder is temporarily no longer bound). The Tenebrous vestige then whispers to Orcus while glancing back at the binder until Orcus opens his fist "releasing" the vestige back into the binder.
What did Tenebrous whisper? I wouldn't ruin the group's plans, but maybe it was what the party has been up to and their role in the whole adventure path, or maybe it's some dark (but irrelevant) secret about the binder, or it could be something else entirely unrelated to the current situation but Tenebrous witnessed through a different binder. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it except for the creepiness factor, especially if your group is prone to mechanical questions like "Well, why doesn't Orcus then have binders of Tenebrous around reporting to him all the time?" and such. :)
While I enjoy the idea of Orcus yanking Tenebrous out of the Binder, I am pretty sure he has no way to do that other than through GM hand-waving. Vestiges cannot be targeted or expelled except by the binder himself, and can only be suppressed by an Anti-Magic field or the like. Maybe Orcus could pick up the actual Binder himself, and the Binder feels a compulsion to speak to Orcus as Tenebrous, but otherwise, Tenebrous is beyond even Orcus's reach. However, its your game and you can do as you want, but the player may protest if he doesn't like what you are doing to his character.
While I enjoy the idea of Orcus yanking Tenebrous out of the Binder, I am pretty sure he has no way to do that other than through GM hand-waving. Vestiges cannot be targeted or expelled except by the binder himself, and can only be suppressed by an Anti-Magic field or the like. Maybe Orcus could pick up the actual Binder himself, and the Binder feels a compulsion to speak to Orcus as Tenebrous, but otherwise, Tenebrous is beyond even Orcus's reach. However, its your game and you can do as you want, but the player may protest if he doesn't like what you are doing to his character.
Agreed, entirely. Absolutely make sure the player would go along with whatever they decide to do.
When it comes to weird magical effects, I throw in a heck of a lot of GM hand-waving, but only if it doesn't affect the characters harshly and the players would go along with it. In my groups, I know any of my players would go along with any of those suggestions because it doesn't harm them and it adds to the mystery and feel of the situation.
In my examples, the only mechanical effect might be the binder not being bound for a single round (assuming they were not in combat anyway so mechanics are a little less important). They were weird effects that don't seem possible by the rules, but looking at the raw mechanics, there's very little impact.
Of course, when appropriate, I allow player hand-waving as well on occasion. So if the player said they felt that Tenebrous would want to speak through them in this situation or some other strange (but mechanically mild) effect, I'd gladly allow.
The rules don't really allow/cover these things, but when you have a character who can pull a portion of a former diety locked away from reality into himself and is currently on another plane of existence where the "darned" go to suffer and is talking to an actual demon lord who returned from the dead by posing as the deity that the character is carrying a portion of - well, in my opinion, sometimes rules should be bent to capture the awe and power of the situation. :)
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The rules don't really allow/cover these things, but when you have a character who can pull a portion of a former diety locked away from reality into himself and is currently on another plane of existence where the "darned" go to suffer and is talking to an actual demon lord who returned from the dead by posing as the deity that the character is carrying a portion of - well, in my opinion, sometimes rules should be...
I was reading this to myself, and I actually had to stop and take a breath when I got to the hyphen.
While I enjoy the idea of Orcus yanking Tenebrous out of the Binder, I am pretty sure he has no way to do that other than through GM hand-waving. Vestiges cannot be targeted or expelled except by the binder himself, and can only be suppressed by an Anti-Magic field or the like. Maybe Orcus could pick up the actual Binder himself, and the Binder feels a compulsion to speak to Orcus as Tenebrous, but otherwise, Tenebrous is beyond even Orcus's reach. However, its your game and you can do as you want, but the player may protest if he doesn't like what you are doing to his character.
But its Orcus. I'm of the belief that there really shouldn't be rules governing major powers of the multiverse.
Certainly I wouldn't do anything that would impact the players negatively (unless they really deserved it). But who is to say what Orcus couldn't do in the seat of his power with a former vestige of himself. Reality isn't stable when it comes to Demon Lords and gods coming back from the dead.
I kind of liked the whole whisper in the ear thing. Also, your player obviously wanted there to be some sort of connection to Orcus anyway, or they wouldn't have chosen Tenebrous in the first place. Let there be the strange connection.
I would say hand wave and as a good gesture, give the characters a boon and make it easier for them to convince Orcus to join them or just give it out of hand.
not to be argumentative, but the whole point of the vestige flavor is that they are entities that are beyond the reach of everyone, including the gods themselves. Thats the whole point. If binders made pacts with ordinary beings that the gods despise (as much of the flavor text suggests for several vestiges) then they would just have them wiped out with a divine hand wave (or have all their servants attempt to destroy the vestiges). The gods can't do that in the rules as written (or flavor text as written). Instead, they have to suppress Binder knowledge and destroy the binders themselves to get at the Vestiges. Its your campaign and you can do what you want, but I would suggest something a little more subtle. I am not saying Tenebrous and Orcus can't interact. It's just that by the Vestige rules, Orcus can't DO anything to a vestige. At the very least, the GM can control Tenebrous and have things happen from THAT side. Its a balancing act between the shock and awe of Orcus, and the mysterious and otherworldly allies of the Binder. As always, Rule 0 trumps all in the game.
While I enjoy the idea of Orcus yanking Tenebrous out of the Binder, I am pretty sure he has no way to do that other than through GM hand-waving.
Yes but it's cool beyond words. The rules be damned. ;)
I had a PC carrying around something similar (effectively a vestige of Larsdana Ap Neut), and the (effective) vestige had a tendency to reach out and temporarily manifest by hijacking the body of any 'loth directly descended from her. No rules basis for any of it, no dice roles at any point, but for the atmosphere and plot yummyness it added to the campaign it couldn't be beat. :)