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Hey everyone. Normally I post these kinds of questions on the wizard's boards, but I know a couple of the players in question frequent the boards, and I don't want to risk them reading information that they wouldn't know from the game. If for some reason you are one of the player's from my game and come across this, please stop reading now. :D Thanks!
Here are the players:
Laela - Female Human Wolf Totem Barbarian (variant from UA, Improved Trip and Track in place of Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense) 2
Geth - Male Elan Ranger 1/Scout 1
Aansa - Female Gnome Druid 2
Indri - Female Gray Elf Wizard 2
Gadby - Male Tallfoot Halfling Cleric of Wee Jas 2
Situation:
The party is currently in the Whispering Cairn module, and just got done at the Land Farmstead. They took care of the owlbear rather quickly (a crit by the charging barbarian will do that), and the poor baby owlbear (Geth wanted to kill it, even though it tried to hide while he did so). They found the tracks leading back to town, and the severed arm, and eventually put two and two together. Gadby wasn't happy about the gravedigging, and the others wanted to find out where the bodies were so they could put them back. They went to the Feral Dog around noon, and ended up waiting until 8 or 9 before Kullen's Gang showed up.
It gets a bit confusing around here. Initially, Aansa, being the diplomat that she is, wanted to do some roleplaying and said she was going over to talk to them. It started off interestingly. Though she was very friendly, her approach caught Kullen's gang a bit off guard, as she said that she didn't care why they dug up the bodies, she just wanted to return them. There was more to it, but that was the initial statement. I had set the DC at 19 (We use Rich Burlew's Diplomacy rules), and she rolled a 15. Not quite high enough, even with the +2 I gave her for the way she was portraying it, but high enough to offer a counter proposal, which was the gold. At this point, I guess the rest of the group decided they were there as well, particularly Geth, as he was basically the druid's protector (both from the Lodge). When Kullen asked for some money, Geth said something to the effect of "How about I give you 10 gold and when the guards ask who dug up the bodies, we won't give them your name?"
Now, Kullen knows the guards are corrupt, so that's not as big an issue as it seems. However, they are also corrupt for the Mayor, not Kullen's boss, and there could be some bad blood and the guard may just enjoy locking Kullen up now that they have an excuse. Either way, the implied threat, insult of very small money being offered, made Kullen angry, and he stood up and began to draw his weapon. Said something like "Well, you need legs to walk to the guard, don't you?" and then battle started.
It was quite the difficult one, as should be obvious. The party performed well, but there were a *lot* of things that could have changed the outcome. Geth went down pretty fast, within the first or second round, and Laela went down a bit afterwards, after getting Kullen down to 1 HP. A few cure light potions later, and eventually the druid was down, with only her Restorative ability keeping the other downed members stabilized (PHB2 variant). At this point, I had Kullen (who was raging, at 7 HP or so) tell the wizard and ranger to go to Smenk (if I had kept them there, it would surely have been a TPK) and let him know about this. Kullen got dropped again, got fed a cure light by the fighter, and was up at 2 or 3 hit points. Knowing that he probably wouldn't make it out alive, he said something like "If I'm going down, I'm taking one of you with me". He didn't move much the entire battle, only 5 feet from his chair, and was still standing near downed Geth. While in the large scheme of things, what Geth said really wasn't that bad, he was the only target within reach, and Kullen was still raging. So, using the standard action he had left (no full round) he made an attack against Geth. I gave Geth his prone AC too (instead of helpless) but he was still hit, and killed. Indri used a Sleep on the fighter which worked the next action, and Gadby death touched Kullen for the kill. The group quickly healed their wounded. Laela tossed Geth over her shoulder, and one of the others each cast Detect Magic and grabbed anything that looked good from Kullen/fighter friend, then went through the back and out a window to escape the oncoming guard.
They ended last session fleeing into Allustan's tower. Besides what occurred in the battle, the session was overall pretty fun. The cleric was new, and a great roleplayer, and was quite the amusement when he first joined.
The battle left a bitter taste in everyone's mouth though, as it was their first party death. There were a *lot* of things that they could have done that would have improved their chances, though, and I think the new cleric was going to start Tactics threads on our message board as an aid. Some points:
- Laela only power attacked Kullen on her second attack, which she rolled poorly on for damage. If she had rolled better, or power attacked right off, Kullen would have been to negatives instead of at 1.
- Indri didn't use sleep until the last round, when only the fighter was up. Using it earlier could have saved a lot of trouble.
- Gadby had a scroll of grease, and only used it after Laela and Geth had both gone down. It held both Kullen and the fighter up for a couple rounds, both failing their reflexes and balances.
So, now into the questions. Was Geth's death unfair? Does anyone think that delivering a killing blow, taking the nearest target into the afterlife with him, is something Kullen would have done?
That's the main question of this thread. These others would be nice to know too, so feel free to answer if you can. I know this has been pretty long already.
Geth's player is pretty unhappy right now. Contrary to what he told me about enjoying making new characters at the beginning of the game, he is down right refusing to make a new one, doesn't want Reincarnation ("I don't want to be small or have a ****ing level adjustment", though I'm not sure if LA's even apply with that), and wants a Raise Dead. The problem is, if the party sold all their latest magical gear (the +1 Guisarme from the fighter, +1 Cloak of Resistance, and +1 Chainmail Laela got earlier), they'd have enough for maybe half the Raise Dead. The only person in town who can cast it is the High Priest of Heironeous, and even then he can't prepare it himself, he has a scroll. As none of the party is even remotely part of his faith, or known to him, he would need the full value of the scroll in order to part with it.
Geth's player expects me to find a way for Geth to come back, or pretty much, he'll walk. This upsets me, but I'm going to offer him a third way that should help. The other adventuring group (Khellek, the others) will speak with dead with him privately, after consulting the rest of the group, and offer a deal. They'll cover the remainder of his raise dead, if he agrees to 'spy' a bit for them, report what goes on with his group, and forward him a share to pay back his 'loan' (effectively double the loan, so 5,000, over 3-4 levels). If he agrees, they'll use Lesser Gaes to enforce this.
Is that a fair offer?
Lastly, Geth is an abberation. How does Reincarnation work then? He also died while possessing Ghoul Fever. The monster manual ability only mentions dying "from" Ghoul Fever as a cause for becoming a Ghoul, what happens if a character doesn't die from it, but with it?
I appreciate any advice on all of these questions, and thank anyone who took the time to read all of that.
I can understand your player's frustration. While it would make sense for Kullen to take out an enemy if he knew he was going to die, it's a pretty crummy way for a PC to go out. Why didn't Kullen and Todrik (?) just run or spill the information when the half-orc was down so low on hit points? They don't really seem to have a real reason to fight to the death: they're just a bunch of cronies in a bar fight. Plus, it would be so much more interesting to have them come back over and over to vex your PCs, if they all survived.
It stinks that your player is throwing a fit over this, but, honestly, I think it was a bad call on your part. If the players make mistakes, yes, make things tougher for them. But kicking them when they're down (literally) just isn't fair. If he would have otherwise made it out alive, it really came down to your making the decision to kill that character rather than allowing the dice to fall where they may. Remember, running away (especially at low levels) is an option for players and NPCs.
My suggestion is to either let the cleric of Wee Jas pull some strings with his superiors to get the character raised. Just because in the written material the other priest has the scroll, it doesn't mean you can't make some alterations. Just my opinion.
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I can understand your player's frustration. While it would make sense for Kullen to take out an enemy if he knew he was going to die, it's a pretty crummy way for a PC to go out. Why didn't Kullen and Todrik (?) just run or spill the information when the half-orc was down so low on hit points? They don't really seem to have a real reason to fight to the death: they're just a bunch of cronies in a bar fight. Plus, it would be so much more interesting to have them come back over and over to vex your PCs, if they all survived.
It stinks that your player is throwing a fit over this, but, honestly, I think it was a bad call on your part. If the players make mistakes, yes, make things tougher for them. But kicking them when they're down (literally) just isn't fair. If he would have otherwise made it out alive, it really came down to your making the decision to kill that character rather than allowing the dice to fall where they may. Remember, running away (especially at low levels) is an option for players and NPCs.
My suggestion is to either let the cleric of Wee Jas pull some strings with his superiors to get the character raised. Just because in the written material the other priest has the scroll, it doesn't mean you can't make some alterations. Just my opinion.
You're right, Kullen could have tried to run. The difficulty was the doorway was kind of hard to get to, and there was the chance of an AoO from the cleric (which even at its weakest damage, Kullen couldn't take. He was also still raging, and even if he could make it out, would fall unconscious in a matter of a few rounds. He was barely holding on. You are right though, I was probably being more vengeful with him then I thought at the time, and Geth's death may have been unnecessary. But then there's the difficulty in retconning it.
The problem wasn't with the calling of whether or not Geth dies, he was upset because his only real choice was 'make a new character' or 'reincarnate'. And again, the problem with Raise Dead isn't necessarily the availability, but the cost. I can't see Wee Jas doing it. Me and the cleric's player went over the Core Faith article on her, and raising dead isn't a very common thing. Even then, it's almost never done on Chaotic characters (Geth was very much CN), and if it ever is, there needs to be a damn good reason. As DM, I can of course say it happens, it just seems like a stretch.
I may make an offer to the group to retcon the whole thing, it just seems like a horribly cheap way. Basically, they'd be able to escape with Geth and the others just barely, but without any of the magical gear they looted off the two. I don't know, I just absolutely hate retconning. :(
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Hmmm. Another idea. Can someone explain Fate Points in more detail to me? From what I understand, a player can theoretically use one to escape a death effect, and they start with two at character creation?
If this is the case, I may do a minor retcon and allow him to use a fate point for his character. Write up something like "When they finally arrived back at Allustan's, they noticed that, despite the garrish axe wound in his chest, Geth was still breathing".
Thoughts?
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Fate Points are more powerful then Action Points, and thus, more rare. They will be handed out only for story rewards and personal character goals. IE, one may earn Fate Points for adhering to their characters' stated beliefs and priorities over the campaign's immediate needs, or at the conclusion of a story arc. Fate Points can be used in one of three ways:
First, you can use a Fate Point to escape a situation that would have killed your character, and instead are stable at -10.
Second, you can choose to use a Fate Point to add a number of d6's to ALL your d20 rolls in a single round (including AC). However, no more then one Fate Point can be spent in a single encounter. (1st-5th : 1d6, 6th-10th : 2d6, 11th-15th : 3d6, 16th-20th : 4d6)
Thid, Death Effects. If you are aware you are being targeted by a death effect (e.g. spellcraft), you can spend an action point as an immediate action BEFORE rolling, to auto-succeed. If you opt to roll, and then subsequently fail, you are dead, no fate points can change this.
All characters start with 2 Fate Points at character creation.
This is the mechanic as I know it, from a third party web site. If I should not post this on the boards, please say so and I will immediately remove it, I'm not sure how Dungeon handles this material.
If it's alright, then is this the correct mechanic? If not, how does it differ?
Thanks!
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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As always, Mr. Keegan has covered the point very well. I don't want to rehash what he has already stated - just that I agree with him.
I only want to offer one cautionary tip - while I think the circumstances were a bit unfair that lead to the PC death, you CANNOT buckle to player pressure everytime one of their characters die. Here, use whatever feels right to you for your game. Maybe bringing him back works for you, maybe it doesn't.
Just be sure that the player doesn't feel like all he has to do is throw a fit in the future and his character will be brought back from the dead. I'm a big fan of letting the dice fall where they may, with certain exceptions. Your decision does seem a little like a death sentence for that character though.
But, in the future, if the death of a character is fair, that's just part of the game. You may want to have a private discussion with this player, work out something agreeable, but definitely reinforce that he can't just throw a hissy fit and expect to get his way. In this one instance you had some misgivings about what happened, and are willing to hammer out a solution with him.
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As always, Mr. Keegan has covered the point very well. I don't want to rehash what he has already stated - just that I agree with him.
I only want to offer one cautionary tip - while I think the circumstances were a bit unfair that lead to the PC death, you CANNOT buckle to player pressure everytime one of their characters die. Here, use whatever feels right to you for your game. Maybe bringing him back works for you, maybe it doesn't.
Just be sure that the player doesn't feel like all he has to do is throw a fit in the future and his character will be brought back from the dead. I'm a big fan of letting the dice fall where they may, with certain exceptions. Your decision does seem a little like a death sentence for that character though.
But, in the future, if the death of a character is fair, that's just part of the game. You may want to have a private discussion with this player, work out something agreeable, but definitely reinforce that he can't just throw a hissy fit and expect to get his way. In this one instance you had some misgivings about what happened, and are willing to hammer out a solution with him.
Hit the nail on the head. Though I agree that the circumstances of death were a bit harsh, at the time, I saw it as something the character would have done. Having time to think about it, I agreed that he probably would have tried to escape instead, but what's done is done.
So I offered a few changes, but the biggest one is the offer of Fate Points, which would effectively mean he didn't die, and I have to change nothing about the battle. So the least form of 'retconning', which is best.
I usually don't buckle to player pressure, and in this case, I had the rules for how death would be handled (much to their benefit) drawn up and shown to them ahead of time. Basically the same as current rules, except if you get a raise dead or similar spell, the only 'level loss' affects xp only, current level stays the same. It's a variant I saw, and thought would be nice, as de-leveling sucks.
Can anyone confirm/deny if the fate rules I posted above are the ones used in the future mag? I am at work, and don't have it with me, so can't quite check right now. :)
Thanks!
The Fate Points used in Age of Worms (Spire of Long Shadows) are nothing like the ones posted here. They just allow you (a player) to re-roll any d20 roll (your roll, not one from the DM). So their biggest use is to counter that really annoying "rolled a 1 on a fort save" kind of thing that can crop up at higher levels.
Now, in case it's still worth another opinion, ...
I'd say that yes, what's done is done - maybe next time you won't play for keeps so much, as that will probably rub off onto the players too and they won't back off from a difficult encounter either - from the sound of it, Kullen etc could have retreated at about the middle of the fight, before they were nearly dead, and/or others (law or by-standers) could have intervened - a public fight to the death isn't something I'd want to encourage in a campaign, especially this one which has a number of scenarios based in cities or towns where the PC's shouldn't be encouraged to flout the law (at least not in public). And have a think about whether killing a dying PC is something you'd do in the future - sure, it might make the most sense from the bad-guy's perspective at the time, but is it something you want to do to your players regularly, and will they thank you for it? In my games, I've never done this (as someone else said, it feels like kicking the player when he's already down) and I must say I've never seen players finish off their dying opponents until the fight is well and truly over either. If I was the player, I'd definitely feel cheesed off that you took me out like that (bad luck or bad play by the players is one thing, DM whim deciding it's your time to die can cause resentment, even if as DM you don't think that's what you did).
Now, I think that by adding fate points, of whatever kind, to your game at this stage is definitely changing the rules just because one of your players doesn't like how things have turned out. As others have said, it's starting a really bad precedent for your campaign, which is only just beginning. To me, it smacks of you buckling under pressure and saying "oh look, you're not really dead after all" seems like a JR in Dallas kind of thing ("it was just a dream!") Sends a message to everyone that if they die, it's not a big deal, you'll just let them live on again as if nothing happened, or worse still, they will on;y die when you decide they should.
As an alternative, I'd say run with what you've got, and can offer for your consideration the "fix" for a similar situation that my game found itself in...
In may game, a PC died in the middle of the second adventure (end of the caves of Erythnul), and the player didn't want a new PC and wasn't actually a big fan of being raised from the dead either (unless it made sense story-wise). I said "let's just play it out in game", and the other players were really good about it, they scoured the place for someone to help get their companion back. In the end, they found the High Priest of St Cuthbert quite willing to try and help out - he said he'd look after the body and pray day and night for a miracle. Meanwhile, he also managed to press the fighter-type PC into the service of his god, even got him to do some self-flagellation to help with the prayers ;-) Of course, in reality the priest was stalling so he could send for a scroll of raise dead from the Free City. After a few days, with a growing congregation, the "miracle" finally occurred, and the PC (at the time, a rogue/wizard) was alive again. The priest took what the PC's could offer in terms of "donations" to the church, and also got them to pledge allegiance to St Cuthbert and to help the church in the future. Meanwhile, the priest may not have fully recouped his expenses (or maybe just not made a profit), but he certainly got a lot more of the townsfolk interested in St Cuthbert and his miracles - he even sold the bloody rags the PC was wrapped in as holy relics.
So for me, this turned a really bad occasion for the players (a bit of bad luck in the PC getting hit for a critical when she was trying to pitch in to what was a really tough fight for the party), into a really good role-play experience which had ongoing effects (all fun) on the future of the campaign. As the PC's saw more of the Priest of St Cuthbert, they became keener to distance themselves from this weird church (in reality, is was just the high priest that was weird, but they thought all St Cuthbertites must be like him). It was only later that the players discovered the Garrison etc (they were from out of town). The PC who died even, later on, re-trained to change from Wizard to Cleric (of a different deity, Bleredd). The players knew I was milking the occasion of the player's death for some fun role-play, but it was in the end just harmless fun, the PC got to live on, and have a really life-changing (and campaign defining) set of events to boot. As it turned out, there's only been one more party death since then, which was the NPC follower of the rogue/cleric, Melinde (Paladin of Heironeous) - I don't recall how she got raised, but it was another important role-play opportunity which helped forge closer links between the two dead-and-raised-again characters.
Hope that's useful, and please don't take my thoughts on your current or past work as criticism, it's just an opinion based on looking in a bit from the outside, it's hard to know the real deal without being involved.
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The Fate Points used in Age of Worms (Spire of Long Shadows) are nothing like the ones posted here. They just allow you (a player) to re-roll any d20 roll (your roll, not one from the DM). So their biggest use is to counter that really annoying "rolled a 1 on a fort save" kind of thing that can crop up at higher levels.
Now, in case it's still worth another opinion, ...
I'd say that yes, what's done is done - maybe next time you won't play for keeps so much, as that will probably rub off onto the players too and they won't back off from a difficult encounter either - from the sound of it, Kullen etc could have retreated at about the middle of the fight, before they were nearly dead, and/or others (law or by-standers) could have intervened - a public fight to the death isn't something I'd want to encourage in a campaign, especially this one which has a number of scenarios based in cities or towns where the PC's shouldn't be encouraged to flout the law (at least not in public). And have a think about whether killing a dying PC is something you'd do in the future - sure, it might make the most sense from the bad-guy's perspective at the time, but is it something you want to do to your players regularly, and will they thank you for it? In my games, I've never done this (as someone else said, it feels like kicking the player when he's already down) and I must say I've never seen players finish off their dying opponents until the fight is well and truly over either. If I was the player, I'd definitely feel cheesed off that you took me out like that (bad luck or bad play by the players is one thing, DM whim deciding it's your time to die can cause resentment, even if as DM you don't think that's what you did).
Now, I think that by adding fate points, of whatever kind, to your game at this stage is definitely changing the rules just because one of your players doesn't like how things have turned out. As others have said, it's starting a really bad precedent for your campaign, which is only just beginning. To...
Well, thank you for letting me know about the true use of fate points. They don't seem that great though, all things considered, I had thought they were more powerful than action points. Being able to re-roll a d20 seems much less powerful than getting to add multiple d6s to a roll (though I can see its usefulness in countering a natural 1).
No worries about the criticism, that's what I asked for. The more I think about it, the more I think that you guys are right, and Kullen should have run away. Unfortunately, while I am willing to do very minor retcons, that is definitely not minor.
The Fate Point thing was something I was going to suggest before the game in question, but never got around to. Regardless of the player's pressuring, I felt like having them could have changed the outcome, and was considering it before I even heard from him. So that's an issue I can do with a clean conscience.
I sent him mail telling him that he had three choices, which I thought were more than fair. The Raise Dead one I did in a way like you suggested, with something that should encourage role-play:
1. New character, one level lower, experience midway to next level
2. Reincarnate, same level, experience lowered to same as 1 (level stays the same, my variant on raises, player does not 'de-level', just loses experience). Roll for reincarnate is allowed one free re-roll, but second roll must be kept if chosen. Full 1,000 cost of reincarnate needs to be paid (which they can afford)
3. Raise Dead, half cost (2,500). Roleplay would include an 'offer' to Geth's soul from a third party, and an agreement that he pay them back, and provide information when asked for. (OOC, this would involve the other adventuring group in town paying for the other part of a raise dead, and using a lesser gaes to enforce his 'loan' payment, along with the occasional knowledge of party activity. Not a 'vengeful' kind, more of a 'they seem to be finding things out we aren't, we should keep tabs on them'.)
I sent the Fate Points thing not because of any bad feelings or pressure from the player, but primarily because A. it was something I was going to offer anyways, and B. paying for either option 2 or 3 could very well bankrupt the party, and hurt their chances in the TFoE quite a bit.
I think I may stick with the current Fate Rules I posted above. I like them a bit better than the AoW version, and so long as I divy them out sparingly, it should be alright.
As for Geth being 'alive', the party did carry him off. So it would be more of a realization, once they got back to the tower, that despite his garrish axe wound, the Elan was still breathing. :)
Contributor
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While having Kullen kill the character may not have been the best possible move, I have a few counterpoints:
1) Running away when you are a raging barbarian who will take attacks of opportunity for doing so is both innappropriate from a RP perspective and tactically foolish.
2) The PCs should have taken steps as soon as the character went down to protect him, or should have equally (if not more) been seeking to withdraw from this fight.
3) Characters die sometimes. I'm not saying that you should ignore game balance or be a killer DM, but the fact is, sometimes characters die when they shouldn't have.
So basically, don't beat yourself up over it. I support being lenient with experience penalties when characters die. In fact I tend to be more lenient when they make up a new character, because Raise Dead should be rare, IMO.
If I were to suggest an improvement to the way you handled the whole situation, it would be that Kullen should have threatened the players instead of immediately attacking; I would give them an opportunity to make a more difficult second bribe/diplomacy response, or to just back off.
Mind you, when I played this adventure, my DM warned us early on not to mess with Kullen, by having him beat us senseless more or less for fun. We walked carefully around him until we were really ready to take him down.
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Thanks for the words of advice! I do wish now that it had been a fist fight, as those are always more fun (and nonlethal) to run. Besides that, there were a lot of tactical blunders that could have made the encounter go a lot faster too.
Indri didn't cast her sleep until the last round, after two had left, Kullen was dead, and the only one left was the fighter (who succumbed).
Gadby didn't realize how bad the encounter was going to go, and so didn't use his Grease scroll until Laela and Geth were already down. Their AoOs could have changed a lot when the enemy tried to stand.
There was poor damage on there part for rolls, and good damage on mine (the hit that dropped Laela was a nat 12 on Kullen's greataxe).
In the end, I gave the option to Geth, as overall, I still feel like it was my fault for making the encounter so deadly to begin with. Yes, Geth was being cocky, and insulting Kullen in his home, but I should still have gone with an unarmed or non-lethal fight, beat the snot out of him. Instead, he got killed. Though to be honest, I'm surprised he didn't earlier. The guy got hit by the wind tunnel trap when he went to check it out by himself, and got hit by it *again* when he went up to dry and disarm it, also by himself. He got in the crushing elevator, with the crunched bones and all, because he didn't find anything by searching the outside. He charged the mother owlbear, and only survived because she went after Laela and she took her down.
Overall, I think even letting him use a Fate Point will change things a bit. I plan on having uses of fate points leave garrish scars where the last hit took place (in this case, an axe wound to the chest), and hopefully the near death experience and the realization that he is, effectively, one live closer to real death, will make him be more cautious in the future. :)
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While having Kullen kill the character may not have been the best possible move, I have a few counterpoints:
1) Running away when you are a raging barbarian who will take attacks of opportunity for doing so is both innappropriate from a RP perspective and tactically foolish.
2) The PCs should have taken steps as soon as the character went down to protect him, or should have equally (if not more) been seeking to withdraw from this fight.
3) Characters die sometimes. I'm not saying that you should ignore game balance or be a killer DM, but the fact is, sometimes characters die when they shouldn't have.
So basically, don't beat yourself up over it. I support being lenient with experience penalties when characters die. In fact I tend to be more lenient when they make up a new character, because Raise Dead should be rare, IMO.
If I were to suggest an improvement to the way you handled the whole situation, it would be that Kullen should have threatened the players instead of immediately attacking; I would give them an opportunity to make a more difficult second bribe/diplomacy response, or to just back off.
Mind you, when I played this adventure, my DM warned us early on not to mess with Kullen, by having him beat us senseless more or less for fun. We walked carefully around him until we were really ready to take him down.
My death rules are on our game's messageboard here: http://dmkaruikage.proboards78.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=house rules&thread=1182920393&page=1
If you could, I'd appreciate any advice/criticism on them. I think they are pretty fair, but this is only one man's opinion.
While having Kullen kill the character may not have been the best possible move, I have a few counterpoints:
1) Running away when you are a raging barbarian who will take attacks of opportunity for doing so is both innappropriate from a RP perspective and tactically foolish.
2) The PCs should have taken steps as soon as the character went down to protect him, or should have equally (if not more) been seeking to withdraw from this fight.
3) Characters die sometimes. I'm not saying that you should ignore game balance or be a killer DM, but the fact is, sometimes characters die when they shouldn't have.
So basically, don't beat yourself up over it. I support being lenient with experience penalties when characters die. In fact I tend to be more lenient when they make up a new character, because Raise Dead should be rare, IMO.
If I were to suggest an improvement to the way you handled the whole situation, it would be that Kullen should have threatened the players instead of immediately attacking; I would give them an opportunity to make a more difficult second bribe/diplomacy response, or to just back off.
Mind you, when I played this adventure, my DM warned us early on not to mess with Kullen, by having him beat us senseless more or less for fun. We walked carefully around him until we were really ready to take him down.
I'm pretty much in agreement with Rambling Scribe here. What you did may not have been the 100% best choice at the gaming table but it was at least arguably something Kullin might do. This whole little scene where the player holds a hissy fit is outrageous. What is this "Age of Kittens?". Death happens and your players should get used to the idea that its always a possibility.
Furthermore, in my experience, almost all deaths in D&D feel like they came out of left field. The CR system essentially makes that the case by making it so the odds are usually stacked in the players favour. Death is what happens when your players make a tactical error and it comes back to haunt them or when the players get unlucky and the bad guys get lucky. It almost always comes about when a player is feeling more or less comfortable with their situation and then all of a sudden - Bang your dead - as something unexpected enters the picture. This stems from the fact that if the players are not comfortable with a situation they look to the other players to help out and almost always another player has a solution to the problem.
My point is that there are probably not going to be any deaths in your game where the player does not feel somewhat cheated. Luck went suddenly south, the monster had an ability that the players had never seen before and never expected, they where executing a plan but another player got distracted by something and failed to fulfill his part in it etc. So unless you plan on playing in GOD mode your players had best get used to the idea that death strikes suddenly and without warning because thats almost always the case.
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Thanks for the reply. :) I gave them Fate Points, the variant I posted above, and they like the concept. I was a little upset about the one player complaining so much, but hopefully they'll quiet down with the Points now.
Just finished the Whispering Cairn today, actually. Went interesting in the final battle. The cleric was absent, so it was quite difficult. They all went in, spawned the Wind Warriors, and tried to run away. Two of them got chased down, and the druid went into negatives. Geth went running to jump to her aid, but ended up jumping through the wind column (which he didn't realize was so strong) and got flung up into the next chamber. While Indri got taken down as well and Laela escaped, the wind warriors went back into the ground, threat neutralized. Laela carefully went back in, and tried to pour cure lights down both of the other character's throats. She got to Indri ok, but Aansa dropped to -10 and had to use a Fate Point. By the time she got them all out, Geth had figured out the Sarcophagas, snatched up everything he could, and tried to make his way back down (took a few tries to force his way through the wind and off to the side, where he could feather fall down). Activated the WWs again, but didn't get hit by an AoO and leaped across the gap to safety. :)
I had Kullen beat the party half orc fighter/ranger into unconsciousness, wake him up then cut off his nose and ears while the whole tavern jeered at him, then toss the ears and nose to the dogs, then he was dragged out of the tavern, kicked and spat on and left for dead.
This was how the character started in the game.
Players are now very eager to take down Kullen and the "Feral dogs"
They will get their chance when they come out of the smoking ruin of the mine in 3FoE.
As always, Mr. Keegan has covered the point very well. I don't want to rehash what he has already stated - just that I agree with him.
I only want to offer one cautionary tip - while I think the circumstances were a bit unfair that lead to the PC death, you CANNOT buckle to player pressure everytime one of their characters die. Here, use whatever feels right to you for your game. Maybe bringing him back works for you, maybe it doesn't.
Just be sure that the player doesn't feel like all he has to do is throw a fit in the future and his character will be brought back from the dead. I'm a big fan of letting the dice fall where they may, with certain exceptions. Your decision does seem a little like a death sentence for that character though.
But, in the future, if the death of a character is fair, that's just part of the game. You may want to have a private discussion with this player, work out something agreeable, but definitely reinforce that he can't just throw a hissy fit and expect to get his way. In this one instance you had some misgivings about what happened, and are willing to hammer out a solution with him.
I am prone to agree with Eyebite, in that there can be a diplomatic solution to this problem. If the player wants choices for his character, I think he should be allowed to
1) Make a new character
2) Reincarnate
3) Negotiate the Raise Dead loan with the rival party (my personal favorite option)
I think retooling the circumstances of what happened would be a bad idea, in this or most any case, and giving into the PCs little fit will only undermine your ULTIMATE authority as DM!
Personally, I don't feel that the PCs death was as "cheap" as many of the other posters. He got into that fight knowing full well that there was going to be bloodshed and that his life might be at stake. The fact that he took an axe to the back of the head while unconscious is irrelivant. Kullen is, after all, of evil alignment.
Of course, I did lose a player after the Filge fight.
I like to tell myself that the player walked because of the Wand of Unseen Lover that I Placed in Filge's nightstand, but it probably had more to do with when his paladin went down, and I had one of the zombies tear off his arm (improvised club) to beat out his remaining hit points.
I guess what I'm getting at is, PCs die. That's what they do, and SOMETIMES that's what they do BEST!
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DM Drawmij