I have a wizard specialized in summoning and support. Are there any "official" alternative monster lists out there? Would substituting monsters with the same CR an (easier) alternative?
Most decent Monster books have Summon lists as an appendix. But CR substitutions aren't too difficult and can contribute a real sense of customization to your campaign.
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Dragon Magazine 302 has a good alternative list that you could look at. Is it "official"? I feel that it is.
I'm sure you could probably find some material from WotC or other companies on the subject as well. Of course, you could also make up your own lists depending on what monster books you have at hand. Just pick monsters of the appropriate CR using the existing list as a guide (though if you're a player you should get your DMs supervision and approval before you make any changes). ;-)
I'm just going to speak up and say that simply replacing the CRs of the creaturs on the summoning lists isn't as sure-fired as you may think. Early on, I tried expanding the summoning lists and found a strange thing. There are many summon monster levels that call creatures of roughly the same CR.
For example, summon monster V can call a hound archon (CR 4). You can also call a CR 4 creature by using summon monster VI to produce a janni.
Summon monster VI can also bring forth CR 6 xills. Babau are also CR 6 and available on the summon monster VII list.
Summon monster IX contains CR 10 couatls, CR 9 green slaadi, CR 11 rocs, and CR 13 colossal fiendish monstrous spiders.
That's just a cursory examination. Overall, it seems that in 3.5 the CRs have been brought more in line from the wide and disperse array found in 3.0. However, there a range of CRs available in each level of the spell, and most CRs are available over several levels. Deciding where to put what creatyre may prove difficult. I think it's supposed to have something to do with the Intelligence of the creature (smarter is harder to summon) or the number of special abilities it can bring to bear (more is harder to summon); in other words, I think basic brute/brawlers are the easiest to summon, while special ability users and "smart" monsters are more difficult, but I haven't looked into it enough to discover if this is true.
I did say use the existing lists as a guide. I'm talking about CR ranges here (or perhaps the average CR on the list) not specific CRs. Of course, for the D&D dummies out there maybe I should have been more specific. :-)
Thanks all.
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Overall, it seems that in 3.5 the CRs have been brought more in line from the wide and disperse array found in 3.0. However, there a range of CRs available in each level of the spell, and most CRs are available over several levels. Deciding where to put what creatyre may prove difficult. I think it's supposed to have something to do with the Intelligence of the creature (smarter is harder to summon) or the number of special abilities it can bring to bear (more is harder to summon); in other words, I think basic brute/brawlers are the easiest to summon, while special ability users and "smart" monsters are more difficult, but I haven't looked into it enough to discover if this is true.
I agree with this. The level of the summoning spell to summon a given thing increases as the summoned creature's versatility and effectiveness increases. A colossal fiendish monstrous spider is certainly a powerful foe, but it can't really do much besides bite things and spray webbing. A green slaadi, however, has numerous spell-like abilities and is capable of not only using equipment but using TACTICS because it is intelligent. Remember that a summon monster spell gives you no ability to communicate effectively with the things you summon. The creature simply attacks as you direct it. With an intelligent creature like a slaadi, assuming you have a common language (or a tongues spell), you could easily give it specific, detailed commands such as "Harrass that spellcaster and try to prevent him from casting anything at us!" If all you need is a creature to assist with a beatdown, by all means go for the freaking gigantic spider! You'll probably find it better suited to the task at hand than the slaadi.
I'm actually putting together a kobold summoner for a short campaign, so this is great info!! Semi-random note- Did you know giant wasps, being vermin, get no feats due to thier 0 INT score? And did you furthermore know that when the fiendish template is added, it raises the INT score to 3, which then gives it 2 feats? I just found this out today as I was constructing my "bestiary" :)
Unearthed Arcana has a pretty wide section on official optional rules for retooling summon lists.
I'm actually putting together a kobold summoner for a short campaign, so this is great info!! Semi-random note- Did you know giant wasps, being vermin, get no feats due to thier 0 INT score? And did you furthermore know that when the fiendish template is added, it raises the INT score to 3, which then gives it 2 feats? I just found this out today as I was constructing my "bestiary" :)
Raising a vermin's Int to 3 grants it 2 feats? Where does it say that?
Kaisius: The easiest way to expand the summon list, though this is probably not exactly the solution you're after, is to switch around the celestial/fiendish labels on the summon lists. If you can summon a fiendish spider, why can't you summon a celestial spider?
I'm actually putting together a kobold summoner for a short campaign, so this is great info!! Semi-random note- Did you know giant wasps, being vermin, get no feats due to thier 0 INT score? And did you furthermore know that when the fiendish template is added, it raises the INT score to 3, which then gives it 2 feats? I just found this out today as I was constructing my "bestiary" :)Raising a vermin's Int to 3 grants it 2 feats? Where does it say that?
Kaisius: The easiest way to expand the summon list, though this is probably not exactly the solution you're after, is to switch around the celestial/fiendish labels on the summon lists. If you can summon a fiendish spider, why can't you summon a celestial spider?
Re: Celestial spiders. Their unions are still in negotiations, that's why they aren't available for summonings. The terms are expected to be finalized sometime by 2068.
Re: Feats for templated vermin. The wasp was denied all feats and skills because of its "-" Intelligence. A creature must have an Intelligence of at least 1 to recieve feats and skills. Applying either the fiendish or celestial template raises said ability to 3, thus retroactively granting feats and skills. I hadn't realized this either until I read the above post. This makes it even more imperative for summoners (or their DMs) to stat up a few "favored" monsters that they plan on calling for simplicity's sake.
Unless, of course, we're reading into this too much and that's not how it works (but I'm pretty sure it would function just as theorized here).