Ok so I game with a bunch of power gamers and we have the tendacy to make stupid chessy characters. I came up with this build for a game:
It is based in the Forgotten Realms Campaign
Human (Mulan)
Wizard5/Cleric5/Mystic Theurge6
Str10
Dex12
Con14
Int20
Wis20
Cha16
Feats
Coligent Wizard
Extra Turning
Extra Turning
Southern Magician
Extend Spell
Persisent Spell
Divine Metamagic-Persisent Spell
So why does a Mystic Theurge need to be able to turn undead 14/day u ask. Well Divine Metamagic allows you to spend turn/rebuke attempts as a swift action to pay for the increase in spell level when adding a meatmagic feat to a spell. So I spend 6 turn attempts and Righteous Might myself gaining all of the bonus of the spell for the next 24 hours. Then once most of my offensive spells are gone I Tenser's Transform myself and NOW I am a holy terror(heh heh).
With those spell in place I am a better fighter than my parties fighter. I can say for sure that I have single handlely taken down numerous melee NPC encounters and have saved the party twice by doing this. And don't forget I am under the effect for 24 hours or until I dismiss it.
Is this to over powered? I have not inculeded the magic items that give me stat bounses or the fact that I am carrying a +4 keened Greatsword.
It sure looks powerful, but by my calculations you are at least 15th level. Around this level thigns start to get stupid real quick. Of course you are a better melee combatant than the fighter, a straight cleric would have been doing that since about level 8 or so.
But don't forget, yo uhave put ALL your resources into this tactic, and with the d4? Hit Dice from Mystic Theurge, I would think your hitpoints are rather low?
I am hoping it is not overpower, as my next character is going to be built around a similar combo (But straight Dwarven Cleric instead).
Oh, and it is SEVEN turn attempts to persist a spell, it is spell level increase + 1.
Also if your the fighter then who the hell is the cleric? I mean even if your holy hell some one has to be knitting the players back together when they fail their save vs. harm. That has always been an issue with the cleric - even when they can be a phenominally good fighter their primary job of saving the rest of the players butts always gets in the way.
I don't see it terribly overpowered. You had to spend at least 2 feats to get the ability. And in your case 3 so you could still have some attempts in reserve.
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Not rules-connected but more a general observation (and a cliche) but if you and your fellow players are having fun I really wouldn't worry about the "cheesyness" of your build. What is appropriate is to some extent determined by the campaign style, so in a power-gamey game you need power-gamey PCs.
Greater Dispell magic is my favorite DM counter to this. Hell, a fighter with an Anti magic field on will mess up your day pretty well too. And a 15th level challenge appropriate bad guy would know all of this, and know you were coming. Buh bye cupcake :)
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Greater Dispell magic is my favorite DM counter to this. Hell, a fighter with an Anti magic field on will mess up your day pretty well too. And a 15th level challenge appropriate bad guy would know all of this, and know you were coming. Buh bye cupcake :)
100% agreed.
Persistant spells are not that big of a deal, especially at those levels. You've blown two of your feats on Extra Turning to even make the tactic a viable option. I don't see this build as being problematic. In fact, I see it being a little bit weak. As a previous poster mentioned, your hit points are going to be very low. One polar ray will probably end you. Just saying.
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So why does a Mystic Theurge need to be able to turn undead 14/day u ask. Well Divine Metamagic allows you to spend turn/rebuke attempts as a swift action to pay for the increase in spell level when adding a meatmagic feat to a spell.
Wait a minute... where in the world does it say you can use turnig attempts to pay for the increased level of a metamagic effect?
From everything I have read about Metamagic effects, a divine spellcaster has to prepare the metamagic effect at the same time he prepares his spells for the day, just like a Wizard does. The only time I get to pontaneously use a Metamagic effect is when I am spontaenously casting a Cure spell.
This sounds like a House Rule to me. Please o please prove me wrong. :) This would be very helpful.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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This sounds like a House Rule to me. Please o please prove me wrong. :) This would be very helpful.
So why does a Mystic Theurge need to be able to turn undead 14/day u ask. Well Divine Metamagic allows you to spend turn/rebuke attempts as a swift action to pay for the increase in spell level when adding a meatmagic feat to a spell.
This is the specific ability of the 'Divine Metamagic' feat. The feat says that you may burn turn attempts equal to the number of the spell's level increase +1 in order to bestow a metamagic effect on any spell that you cast without needing to specially prepare it ahead of time. Each time you take the 'Divine Metamagic' feat, it applies to a new type of metamagic feat (Maximize is a popular choice for my players).
The feat is in the Complete Divine.
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This sounds like a House Rule to me. Please o please prove me wrong. :) This would be very helpful.
Sorry, the feat is Divine Metamagic from Complete Divine. It's widely* seen as one of the more broken feats around. FWIW, it's one of the things I've decided I don't need to deal with.
* "Widely" should not be construed to mean "universally". Some people say they have no particular problem with it.
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"Widely" should not be construed to mean "universally". Some people say they have no particular problem with it.
Like me, for example. I have no particular issue with it. It's no worse than the 'Sudden X' feats from the Complete Arcane except for the possibility of using it more than once a day. Even a character with a really high Charisma usually can't manage more than 7 turn attempts a day without the Extra Turning feat. Do I really care if you can basically 'Sudden Silent' or 'Sudden Still' something 3 times a day? Not really. If you're using the higher powered ones (Maximize, Persistant, etc.) then you're likely only getting one use of it per day without taking Extra Turning. If you do take Extra Turning, well, that's another feat you've burned for this ability.
+1. I have yet to see it in 3.5, but after dealing with 24 hour buff spells from 3.0, I have no problem laying waste to any PC silly enough to start an arms race with me :) By the time they reach the levels this stuff become truly strong, they better be fighting enemies more advanced than orc barbarians, you know?
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Sorry, the feat is Divine Metamagic from Complete Divine.
Don't be sorry I plan on putting this one up before my DM for my Cleric. Anything outside PHB has to be preapproved by him, so I doubt he will let this one through. I have 14 turn checks now, and this would be awesome. Maximized Cure Spells coming right up!
I would have no problem with it myself. I think Turn Checks are an asset for clerics that are under used.
Eh... the character is 16th level. Yeah, sure its powerful. Thats kind of what happens at 16th level. I hope this little trick does not really slow up the DM to much when throwing CR 16+ encounters at the party.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Eh... the character is 16th level. Yeah, sure its powerful. Thats kind of what happens at 16th level. I hope this little trick does not really slow up the DM to much when throwing CR 16+ encounters at the party.
DMM is powerful at any level. It's approaching the status of being the most powerful feat in the game. This is why a lot of people think it is just too much (including me). It's pretty trivial to come up with a 6th level cleric that can throw quickened spells with that feat, and 2 quickened spells per day (assuming no nightsticks) of your top level is a Pretty Big Deal.
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DMM is powerful at any level. It's approaching the status of being the most powerful feat in the game. This is why a lot of people think it is just too much (including me). It's pretty trivial to come up with a 6th level cleric that can throw quickened spells with that feat, and 2 quickened spells per day (assuming no nightsticks) of your top level is a Pretty Big Deal.
Meh. Those 2 Quickened spells cost you 10 turn attempts. Sure you might not think you're going to do much else with them, but what if you NEED them later on? Not only that, but unless you have some SERIOUS twinkery going on, having 10 turn attempts requires that you take Extra Turning in addition to the Divine Metamagic feat.
In my opinion, this feat gives the cleric a much needed ability to bust out with an incredible burst of power once or twice per day. Many cleric spells (in my experience) are weak when compared to their arcane counterparts (for obvious game balance reasons) but I like that this feat permits the agent of a divine power to really call upon some of that holy (or unholy) might to perform something really noteworthy, even if it's only once or twice a day.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Meh. Those 2 Quickened spells cost you 10 turn attempts. Sure you might not think you're going to do much else with them, but what if you NEED them later on? Not only that, but unless you have some SERIOUS twinkery going on, having 10 turn attempts requires that you take Extra Turning in addition to the Divine Metamagic feat.In my opinion, this feat gives the cleric a much needed ability to bust out with an incredible burst of power once or twice per day. Many cleric spells (in my experience) are weak when compared to their arcane counterparts (for obvious game balance reasons) but I like that this feat permits the agent of a divine power to really call upon some of that holy (or unholy) might to perform something really noteworthy, even if it's only once or twice a day.
Of course you'll take extra turning if you're planning on using DMM. It's a complete no-brainer. Quicken Spell is already a good feat at higher levels, so for your three-feat cost you're left with two high-value feats, not a bad tree when you compare to Sudden Quicken, which requires 7 feats, several of low value (Sudden Extend, Sudden Still, Sudden Silent).
Having run or played literally hundreds of Living Greyhawk RPGA tables, I can tell you DMM is an extremely effective feat. I don't buy the idea that clerics "need" to be able to pop out their top level spells as a swift action to be competitive. I buy that they'll do it if you allow them to, though.
Really, the only feat I think competes with it in terms of being found in effective builds is Power Attack of the two-handed variety, but Power Attack is tied into game balance enough that it isn't easy to remove (easy to fix in a home game, though). Persistent spell makes the list, but only in conjuction with DMM.
The Living Greyhawk RPGA campaign has a fairly small list of banned rules items. Divine Metamagic made that list for a reason.
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I have to agree, Fatespinner. Divine magic sometimes needs a little quick boost. And to really take advantage of this you really need to use the Extra Turning Feat. So, I am burning two feats to do this. I hardly consider it overpowered for two feats.
Besides, as a cleric, the first one taken will be Divine Maximized Spell. Allowing me to max out my healing. Also requires 4 turn checks. Won't be using that too many times per day, but it will help keep PCs up and going. Then if I want to Quicken a spell I have to spend another feat to do so. That would mean an investment of three feats! Hardly overpowered.
Besides, turn checks are an under utilized asset of the cleric. Most games are not against undead all the time. So the cleric is walking around with all this divine power coursing through him, and nothing to use it on. Not much of an ability really. It would be as if a Fighter's first feat could only be used once every 10 game sessions or so. Rather useless then. :) Just making an analogy. :)
And Living Greyhawk... don't get me started on that one... :) If it were time for something to have its license revoked it is that!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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And Living Greyhawk... don't get me started on that one... :) If it were time for something to have its license revoked it is that!
Dislike RPGA play all you want, but the fact is RPGA gamemasters see more builds in play than your average DM, by a wide margin. So we wind up having a pretty good idea when a feat is effective - and when it isn't. Which is why I brought it up. For example, a good min-maxer would pass right over your Maximize build. Augment healing will get you great benefits for one feat, and with every healing spell. You actually often get more out of empowering a cure spell than maximizing it, because you empower the bonus as well as the dice.
The comparison, assuming minimum caster level for simplicity
cure light: 9 hp vs. 4 - 11 hp (average 7.5)
cure moderate: 19 hp vs. 9 - 23 hp (average 16)
cure serious: 29 hp vs. 14 - 35 hp (average 24.5)
cure critical: 39 hp vs. 19 - 47 (average 33)
lesser restoration: 4 ability points vs. 5-8 ability points (average 7.5)
mass cure light: 17 hp vs. 20-27 hp (average 23.5)
mass cure moderate: 27 hp vs. 25 - 39 hp (average 32)
mass cure serious: 37 hp vs. 30 - 51 hp (average 40.5)
mass cure critical: 47 hp vs. 35 - 63 hp (average 49)
On the basic spells, you're getting an average of 6 points more healing at best, at the cost of turn attempts every time you use it. Augment of course works on every cure spell. On the mass cures, DMM:Maximize gets beaten for all levels, due to the way the mechanics work.
Basically, if you like that trick for healing, save your feats and take the better, cheaper Augment Healing feat. It'll even help your panacea and heal spells.
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Besides, turn checks are an under utilized asset of the cleric.
Take a look at Complete Divine. All the divine feats use turn/rebuke attempts to power other effects, not just Divine Metamagic. And some of those feats offer very cool effects indeed. In particular, there is a divine feat that allows a single turn/rebuke attempt to maximize all healing within 60' for one round. If you want to maximize healing, that will be more efficient.
The primary healer in the party is a cleric with the Healing domain, Augmented Healing, and the DMM feat w/ Max spell. She also has an armband that allows her to maximze any conjuration(healing) spell of 6th level or lower 3/day. My assest as a healer is secondary.
The DM is not letting this ablility slow him up any, but I think that he is using it as excuse to throw higher EL at us than we can handy. I calculated one and it was +6 or +7 higher than we could handle. We barely made it. This has be happening through the whole game and I think that I accidently started an arms races with my DM without knowing it.
Question - Metamagic Song is the same basic thing except its for bards. It states "You cannot use the metamagic song feat to add a metamagic feat that would make the spell's effective level higher than the highest level of spell that you can normally."
DMM does not say this. Has DMM been errata to include this? If so my buff days are over. If it has not then why do you think it hasn't?
This came up once when we were talking about the Sudden Metamagic feats. I'm not sure if it's my DM's house rule but I thought I read that even though the Sudden feats do not actually adjust the level of the spell you need to be able to cast a spell of the level that it would be adjusted to. I would think that the same would apply to Divine Metamagic. Using the Turn attempts still save you the level adjustment and let you decide on the spot when to do it which is nice.
Question - Metamagic Song is the same basic thing except its for bards. It states "You cannot use the metamagic song feat to add a metamagic feat that would make the spell's effective level higher than the highest level of spell that you can normally."
DMM does not say this. Has DMM been errata to include this? If so my buff days are over. If it has not then why do you think it hasn't?
No, it hasn't been erratted to include this, but many over at the Wizards boards think it is a nice curb to the power it can pump out. I would have to say I probabaly agree with them.