Hi everyone. We had quite the dramatic battle as the PCs came to Triel Eldurast's room, where she was in the process of prepping a few sell-swords to head out into the halls in search of the intruders in her little fortress.
The psionic character in our group has the elemental envoy feat from complete psionics; what it boils down to is the character has a Geodite (complete psionic) as a combat ready follower, who can burrow through stone. This makes dungeon crawling go pretty smoothly, but sometimes the Geodite gets in over her head.
Anyway, here's the situation. The Geodite is facing off against Triel, while the others are trying to save the rogue who is pinned in the razor-blade door at -9 hp and counting.
Triel just flailed away as the geodite came up from the ground; knocking her down to 4 remaining HP's.
On the geodite's turn, she took a 5' step back - then used her stomp ability to knock Triel flat on her face. Then she 'merged into the ground' not changing her position on the 2-d map, but dropping into the ground. My first issue, was whether or not to rule this is actual movement, or just a move action?
Now, as you can see, Triel needs to stand (a move action) take a 5' step, and then attack, which I think works according to the PHB, although its quite similar to the geodite's combination of 5' step, attack, then a move action.
Anyway, I let it ride this time, allowing the Geodite to treat 'dropping into the ground' as move action, but not an actual move; much like standing up. Still, to be honest, I don't know on this one.
Anyway, thanks for any input.
Knowing nothing about psionics, I'd say that the PC had to actually move to merge into the ground thus no free 5' step. If there were a pillar in her square, then it wouldn't be an actual move.
I don't have access to my books right now to look this up. However, if you look up the Geodite, the following should help you arrive at an answer:
1) If "merge into the ground" is listed as a special ability (a psionic power that requires a standard action, or a supernatural ability, for example), then what you did is probably correct.
2) If "merge into the ground" is the PC's way of referring to the use of his Burrowing speed, then it's actual movement. He'd be able to move back 5' and then move downward using burrow, but all of it would count as movement, so he would have provoked an attack of opportunity for that initial 5' of movement. On the other hand, if it's a burrow speed, instead of moving 5' away, he could simply have taken a 5' step "down" (as far as I know, there's nothing preventing you from using a different movement type with your 5' step).
Okay, from the PHB, you can take a move action and a standard action in any order, or take two move actions. Unless you don't actually go anywhere with the first move action (like standing up). The example they have actually has Tordek standing up, taking a 5' step, and attacking.
PHB pg 138 under move action.
So since the Geo didn't move anywhere when it merged with the ground, according to this it was legal: 5' step, attack, merge. Unless the special power to merge is considered a standard action and not a move action.
Except, at the moment, it is still unclear whether the "merge into the ground" ability is considered moving.
I dont know what "merge into ground" says but I rule that to move 5' down is a 5' move.
Use the same rules as if the creature was flying since the ground is not a barrier to its movement. 5' step plus elevation change. So, it could 5' step away into the ground OR 5' step away and stomp but not both as that would be 2 moves and an action.
It could fall prone then merge but would still be attackable and prone on Triel's turn
p.s. I've had players try to take a 5' step away UP a 10' cliff using jump. I ruled that sure you can make the jump but that is NOT a 5' step
Thanks for responding. I tend to agree with the opinion that 5' is 5' whether its down, or forward, or back....The players argument was that if Triel can stand, then move 5' then attack (allowable in the rules) then why can't the geodite, move 5' then attack, and then 'drop into the ground' which is understandably seen as an equivalent to standing from prone.
At any rate, it wasn't a big fuss - but since we're playing our game online, anything that slows down combat is unwelcome, because running combat online is extremely slow to begin with.
I let it ride this time, but I think I'll have to clearly define how this will work in the future...
The players argument was that if Triel can stand, then move 5' then attack (allowable in the rules) then why can't the geodite, move 5' then attack, and then 'drop into the ground' which is understandably seen as an equivalent to standing from prone.
I don't know anything about the monster or the mechanics of the ability you mentioned, so take my comments for what they're worth.
Hmmm...I don't agree that "drop into the ground" is understandably equivalent to standing up. In standing up, you do not change the square you're in, you merely change your positioning within that square. With "drop into the ground" you are no longer in the same square and I can't think of any move equivalent action that allows you to incorporate an actual move as part of it.
To 'drop into the ground' it needs to move 5' down, so it can't 5', attack, then leave its current 5' "cube".
It can attack, and use its 5' step to go down into the ground.
Going prone has nothing to do with disappearing into another space.
The Geodite would not be able to move as it took its move action already with the 5" step. Triel should be able to beat the snot out of the Geodite.
2) If "merge into the ground" is the PC's way of referring to the use of his Burrowing speed, then it's actual movement. He'd be able to move back 5' and then move downward using burrow, but all of it would count as movement, so he would have provoked an attack of opportunity for that initial 5' of movement. On the other hand, if it's a burrow speed, instead of moving 5' away, he could simply have taken a 5' step "down" (as far as I know, there's nothing preventing you from using a different movement type with your 5' step).
Burrowing is part of its movement. So I think your correct in the idea that the creature can't both take a 5' step and then move (burrow). These things don't merge into the ground - they very slowly burrow around (but unlike most burrowing creatures they seem to be able to burrow through actual stone). I assume that your players think of it as 'merging' because your not allowing the players to follow the burrowing creature - which is how its supposed to be but makes the players think of merging more then tunneling.
Yup I agree the above posters. The rules for a 5-foot-step state that:
"You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement."
Any time you leave a 5-foot square (or cube since we're moving in 3D) and enter another 5-foot cube (in this case, the cube inside the ground directly below where you were standing), that's movement. Unless you're teleporting there I suppose, but I don't think that applies.
So, it looks to me like the geodite took two 5-foot steps in the same round.
Frankly, I think the geodite should've just used its spell-like ability defensively. It has a +7 Concentration modifier and a +4 bonus for the Combat Manifestation feat, so the check wouldn't have been very hard.
...The players argument was that if Triel can stand, then move 5' then attack (allowable in the rules)...
Acctually the rule say that you can only 5' step if you havent taken any movement and standing is a move action.
I house rule that you may combine a 5' step and a stand because I do not like when players (or monsters) trip then move to stand on top of the fallen creature.
No the rules DO state that you can stand and take a 5' step because your first move action didn't leave the square you fell in. I didn't post a word for word exact copy of the example in the PHB but it literally has Tordek standing, taking a 5' step towards his opponent and attacking.
The psionic character in our group has the elemental envoy feat from complete psionics; what it boils down to is the character has a Geodite (complete psionic) as a combat ready follower, who can burrow through stone. This makes dungeon crawling go pretty smoothly, but sometimes the Geodite gets in over her head.
I know I'm a little late responding to this, but I think the bigger issue here is that a geodite should not be able to burrow through stone. If you look at the description of the burrow movement mode in the MM glossary (under "Movement Modes"), it says: "A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise." There's nothing in the geodite's descriptive text that says it can burrow through stone. It does say that on the Elemental Plane of Earth, "they enjoy slowly burrowing through all the mineral varieties of stone," but it says they do this "with shaped sonic bursts."