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My DM and I are discussing a maneuver my Crusader of Kord is about to learn. He has just turned 7th level, the maneuver is "Divine Surge" on page 58 of ToB. The describtive text above the mechanics states, "...power sparks off your weapon and courses into your foe, devastating your enemy but leaving you drained." The mechanics below simply state that as one standard action, you make a melee attack that deals an extra 8d8 points of damage. I sent an email to WoTC the day before THE announcement so I am certain that email was overwhelmed by the 1000s that soon followed it. No errata on ToB. I don't believe it is a typo because it is listed in 3 spots the exact same way (the description noted above, the maneuver master list, and the downloadable maneuver cards from the WoTC website). So, pardon my post length, but my question is simply, is this overpowered? So far, my DM and I have talked about adding 1 round of fatigue after, not using this maneuver at all, or changing the d8 to a d6. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated as I have great faith in the perusers of these fine boards...
Cheers!
That is kind of weird that they would say it leaves you drained then not put in some kind of mechanics of what happens to you. And yes it does seem a little (just a little) overpowered for you to be able to make an attack causing an extra 8d8 worth of damage with no consequence of any sort. Is there at least a limit to how many times you can do this. Because I’ll go with its no different then a mage wippin off one of his higher powered spells, as far as damage, but he has a limit to how many times he can do that. So if there is no limit I might start there. But it says it drains you. The round of fatigue works well. I could also go for somehow it does damage back to you, but no more than half of what you did with it. If you put it in where it does something to you that makes it where that would limit how often you use it then there would be no need for a set limit. So basically it should either have a limit of uses or provide the limit because of how it “drains you”.
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Two standard actions (one to use and one to refresh) to get a possible bonus of 8d6 if an attack hits.
Compare that to, say, two attacks (more if you don't have to move more than one square) by a barbarian with a greatsword. 20 STR, Rage, +2 Greatsword, Power Attack, and maybe another buff or two means that the bonus damage on the second attack might be more than 26 points. The median on an 8d6 bonus is 28 points.
I don't see the problem.
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Its 8d8, not 8d6. Not a huge difference but some. I see your point about the comparison to a power attacking barbarian and will pass it along to my DM.
Sorry, my mistake. The median on 8d8 is 36, so pretty close to the total damage from a hit by that barbarian.
The tradeoffs are interesting. The Crusader can do two rounds of damage in a single round, which is often really useful. OTOH, he can't split that damage up, can't get a charge in addition to the damage, and can't get BAB-based iterative attacks. Does the damage bonus affect any Cleave attacks the Crusader might be entitled to? If not, that's another advantage for the Barb.
To be fair, of course, hitting people with a big sword is pretty much what a Barb does, so the additional flexibility of your Crusader is an advantage on the other side.
BTW, the consensus of Bo9S seems to be that the classes therefrom are a bit more powerful than fighters, though mostly at higher levels. But the consensus on fighters is that they're underpowered, especially at higher levels, so I don't see that as a disadvantage.
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He can't do it on a cleave attempt. It takes a full standard action, also, if the attack misses, it is expended. I was thinking a good, solid compromise would be 8d6, which is still considerable bonus or 8d8 with the following round only being able to take a move action. Thanks for your thoughts by the way, I am always amazed at the willingness of others to help out on these boards, it is a great resource.
I also have been thinking of comparing it more to a wizards fireball. Same level would be 7d6 with a fairly high reflex save for half. The crusader gets 8d8 plus normal melee damage but only on a hit. the difference is that the wizard could do it again the next round and the crusader would be back to his normal attack. Interesting dilemma. I will post our DMs decision when he makes it. Or maybe he'll post it here himself.....
That seems pretty overpowered IMO, but maybe you could put time between each attempt on it. Perhaps like a dragons breath weapon you could tell the PC to roll a 1d4 or some other die-add 1 and that's how many rounds until he can use it again. If you find that is still overpowered, try decreasing it to 8d6. If you let him use it and then wait 1d4+1 rounds until he does it again, it would not only balance it a little more but it would prove the point of the description of the attack actually draining the users power. Perhaps that will balance the ability, oh and what are the requirements to use the feat? Just curious.
Your friend,
Sir Smashes Alot