I am a bit new to the DM world, but I put my hat in for the next campain. My problem is I have a group in the area of 10 people, topping it off, they want to go with an epic level campain.
So, my thoughts are "o crap".
Anyways, I was looking into something, of course, large scale. To add to my dilema, the group is so powerful, they pretty much can burn through anything thrown at them with little damage. I don't think we had a character die yet, even though the last DM threw a gargantuan black at us. Even then only a few of the party really fought it. (others ran around like chickens with thier heads cut off...or stood there say'n "let me know how that goes!")
I was suggested to try something along the lines of involving them in the Dragonfall War, but I really don't have alot of info on it, just the basics.
What I want to do is beef up the monsters and other challenges to make it at least "challenging". So could anyone help me figure out how to beef up the monsters to the point of being an actual challange to a group of 10 level 21 characters?
Thanks!!!
Director of Narrative
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I am a bit new to the DM world, but I put my hat in for the next campain. My problem is I have a group in the area of 10 people, topping it off, they want to go with an epic level campain.
So, my thoughts are "o crap".
Turn back now. I wouldn't wish an high/epic level game full of strong players on any newish DM. Either talk them into running with something lower until you can get your feel for it or just wait until they get that silly high level thing out of their system.
But as far as your real question goes, I would bump all HP totals to max instead of average. Use multiple enemies to distribute the PCs attacks at your critters and always pit them against encounters that are at least 2-4 levels higher than the party.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Don't just use big monsters, either. Sure, a colossal dragon is sure to be a fearsome foe but... what about another group of adventurers with just as much gear and skill as them? While NPC wealth prevents you from giving them EQUIVALENT gear, the NPC party should make up for it with lots of one-use or charged items to pick up the slack. Also, you could consider making them of a race that gives them some innate superiority over the PCs (like a pack of drow, for example). As a DM, I love humanoid foes because every clever thing your party comes up with can just as easily be turned against them. Tactics are key. Good luck!
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Turn back now. I wouldn't wish an high/epic level game full of strong players on any newish DM. ...
Ditto -- especially 10 epic characters. "Just say 'No'."
One thing that you can do is take a look over at http://www.dmtools.org/ and do a search by Challenge Rating. There are a good number of rather high level creatures that could easily challenge some pretty high level characters. The kaiju template is fun to put on some fairly "standard" creatures to make them rather tough.
Good luck -- you're going to need it...
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Turn back now. I wouldn't wish an high/epic level game full of strong players on any newish DM. ...Ditto -- especially 10 epic characters. "Just say 'No'."
You could always just do what we did for our first epic game: The DM just threw monsters at us from the Monster Manual in alphabetical order with no regard to story or setting. We were just in a giant stone room with no way out and monsters just kept materializing in the middle of the room. Supposedly our characters had run afoul of a god and the deity had imprisoned us there, saying that only if we could defeat every beast in creation would we be released.
Obviously, some of the fights were painfully easy. Others were quite tough. Needless to say, once we had gone through EVERY DRAGON IN THE BOOK and, after the last one fell we were like "Okay, that was kinda fun, but f~+& this."
My husband once stole all our stats and abilities and made us fight evil versions of ourselves, he could use our own moves on us, pretty scary but great fun.
While epic level campaigns are fun to play and DM I wouldn't suggest one as a begining DM project. I would suggest that you ask your players to let you run a few lower level camapigns to get a feel for DMing. They will probably understand. If you decide to go through with an epic level campaign then this site will be very useful, it has epic level monsters, treasures and some general info on epic level campaigns.
Don't just use big monsters, either. Sure, a colossal dragon is sure to be a fearsome foe but... what about another group of adventurers with just as much gear and skill as them? While NPC wealth prevents you from giving them EQUIVALENT gear, the NPC party should make up for it with lots of one-use or charged items to pick up the slack. Also, you could consider making them of a race that gives them some innate superiority over the PCs (like a pack of drow, for example). As a DM, I love humanoid foes because every clever thing your party comes up with can just as easily be turned against them. Tactics are key. Good luck!
Exactly. As put and taught to me by my first gamemaster the worst enemy to an adventure group is another adventure group. They have the same stats, levels and equipment. And if done right like to take the whole "Anything you can do, we can do better" to the extreme.
For me, there's been a bit of a learning curve to DMing, in battles and what not.
Epic is definitely the opposite of where you want to go.
It'd be best to start at lvl 1, there's very few abilities, and the PC's are kind of expected to blow through kobolds and goblins and the like.
The greatest part about being DM is you get to say what goes, so if they want to play epic, you get to tell them "Well then let's get started, it's a long way from 1 to 21"
When the PC's start gaining levels and you start getting frustrated for your monster groups getting their respected heads kicked in, you'll start making better decisions, better tactics, and be of a frame of mind to take advantage of the all the monster special abilities. All without delaying the game to look up rules and re-read the monster descriptions to see what exactly you can do.
You can very well do it depending on your ability to pick up stuff, but it'll be tough going. Very tough.
Oh and the amount of people just compounds the problem. At low levels you can test out what type of CR encounters really challenge the PC's, start out at EL+2 and work your way up.
I've never made it to epic, but looking at the epic monsters in the epic level handbook, it looks like a nightmare! It doesn't make any sense at all!! That's mainly my infamiliarity with high level spells, but such high AC's, BABs, save or die's. Very intimidating.
I am a bit new to the DM world, but I put my hat in for the next campain. My problem is I have a group in the area of 10 people, topping it off, they want to go with an epic level campain.
So, my thoughts are "o crap".
Turn back now. I wouldn't wish an high/epic level game full of strong players on any newish DM. Either talk them into running with something lower until you can get your feel for it or just wait until they get that silly high level thing out of their system.
But as far as your real question goes, I would bump all HP totals to max instead of average. Use multiple enemies to distribute the PCs attacks at your critters and always pit them against encounters that are at least 2-4 levels higher than the party.
Solid advice. I have to say that I strongly advise against this. You'd have enough grief trying to run a 10-person party at level 1! You're basically signing your own papers and saying "Go ahead and take me to the asylum."
Some questions about your situation. Is the group just going to make 21st level characters from scratch and play them? Or is the group taking their already existing characters, leveling them to Epic standards, and starting a new campaign?
Either way, unless you organically and naturally progress your character to Epic levels, even the players are probably going to be so overwhelmed by the number of options they have as to make it a nightmare for them, too. Or, they'll completely ignore all those lower level options and be much, much weaker than their stats indicate because they don't know what they're doing.
High level games are stressful. Period. Epic level games are migrane-inducing. As a new DM, I can't stress enough how bad of an idea I think this is.
If it's viable, I'd cut the group in half and run a game for them from 1st level. That doesn't mean branch off and loose contact with the rest of what is essentially a gaming club, but simply explain the situation and get 5 people to run the game for, and start them as lowbies. They'll get over it, or they'll quit, in which case you can replace them at the table with any one of the rest of the numerous players in your "pool." Even when it comes time to select them, you need not show favoritism. If more than five people want to join, simply do a lottery of some sort to determine randomly who gets in.
Best of luck to you.
EDIT- Oh, and if you're still contemplating running the Epic game despite the warnings, don't fail to consider that the Epic Level Handbook is both 3.0 and terribly written. There are some mechanics in Epic play that are almost beyond questionable and nearly into the realm of solidly broken. Ya, good luck jumping into that as a beginning DM.
Save your sanity! Start at level 1.
Start at level 1. If they want to play an epic game, tell them epic starts at 1, because the definition of epic is "long and heroic in scope". I don't care about Jimmy P. Cornhucker now, but I sure care about him after he rose from the ranks of commoners, fought off the goblin attacks, rescued the mayor's daughter from the gnolls, slew the dragon of Marzipan, found the lost sword of Senor Vorpal Kickasso, carved out new territories from the hill giants, became King of said territories, and personally held the line at the Hellfire Portal to stop the armies of darkness from running rampant over the land.
Thats epic. And that's what you do BEFORE level 21.
Coversely, who gives a crap about Grand Anihilator Marcus Dominati the Royal, dude who just showed up but can apparently kill us all with a thought and thinks that means we should respect him, instead of fear and shun him.
Starting at Epic is dumb the way playing a Drizzt clone is dumb. It runs on the assumption that someone actually reads the 300 pages of backstory explaining why you're cool. But if you actually spend a session or two or fifty playing out that backstory, then you can actually be cool on your own.
Start at 1. If anyone argues, hit them with a DMG. Its what the corners are for.
Start at 1. If anyone argues, hit them with a DMG. Its what the corners are for.
Ahh, I'll be giving that a try.
Seriously though, after all my many years of playing, I'm going to sit in the DM's chair for the first time soon. I'm nervous, but I also insisted on starting at first level. However, I did tempt them with Pathfinder, perhaps if you agreed to something like that, they wouldn't be able to pressure you into an epic game.
Start at 1. If anyone argues, hit them with a DMG. Its what the corners are for.Ahh, I'll be giving that a try.
Seriously though, after all my many years of playing, I'm going to sit in the DM's chair for the first time soon. I'm nervous, but I also insisted on starting at first level. However, I did tempt them with Pathfinder, perhaps if you agreed to something like that, they wouldn't be able to pressure you into an epic game.
Good luck, you'll love it! It's hard going back to the player chair... when things aren't exactly going as YOU'D want them to go... and there's nothing you can do but your tiny little action... heh
I DID try to warn my husband (the usual DM) that we'd probably have a few more "discussions" about the technical aspects of the game once I was a gamer again, but after playing with him for fifteen years, I'm actually looking forward to being the Goddess for a change.
I'd in the same crowd as most posters here: DON'T DO IT!
I've both played and DM'ed for years and I still haven't a clue on how to properly play an Epic character, let alone DM for ten of then
This is madness and you can be pretty much garantueed you're not going to like it; it'll be a constant arguing and looking up on rules, combat rounds that last 5 hours each as people look over their immense list of spells or feats, monsters that are either dead in a second or kill a party-member each round...
I would advise even experienced DM's against running ten Epic level pc's, let alone one who's hardly ever played before...
10 players?!?
Split into two groups of more reasonably sized parties.
Yeah, forgot about the 10 players bit. For a newish DM, I'd cut that in half. Tell 'em to roshambo for it, or see who can breathe the most water (you'll sort out the dumb ones that way), or by the length of nose hair. Anything, just cut that number down. I find my games work best with 4, 5 is okay but really has a noticeable impact on the time each person gets (25% less), and 3 is ideal except some key element (tank, arcane, healer, skill) ends up out in the cold. At least down to five man, for your own sanity.
Personally, I'd go with the roshambo.
Another long time DM chiming in to svae your sanity :) The DnD system begins to break down after level 20. Its not really designed for it. A good epic campaign is less likely to be hack and slash than careful machinations, whole nations and armies girding for war, demon princes and Celestial commanders clashing for control of planes, that sort of thing. The characters should be constrained by not what they can do, but what SHOULD they do. If they whack the current demon lord and lay waste to his army, will that really bring about peace? Or will it just raise up another lord even more terrible than the first? Read the Sillmarillion, if you haven't already, and look at the war between morgoth and the Maia. THAT's epic.
So yeah, +1 to smaller group and lower level. Are all 10 of these mooks "high level gamers"? Or are soem new to the game, as you are new to DMing? Maybe volunteer to take the newbs and run a game while another DM runs the rest of the gang?
I don't have a lot new to add to what's been said, but I want to add my voice to the chorus of "Don't do it!" First-time GMs really need to start small.
I heartily applaud your insistence on beginning at 1st level. If I were you, I'd also ask five (or six) volunteers to make a separate group, with one of THEM running.
-The Gneech
It's hard going back to the player chair... when things aren't exactly going as YOU'D want them to go... and there's nothing you can do but your tiny little action... heh
As opposed to wielding total and omnipotent power over the entire
Oh, er, uhm... sorry 'bout that....
Thanks guys! I really appreciate the advice!!
I know a group of 10 is huge but on average, not everyone shows up all the time. So maybe 6-8, depending on everyone's moods and how work went that week is how many show up. lol
I told my group I am not ready to run an epic, so I have a small "splinter group" that stop by every other week to run a lower level campain. So far so good with the small group (5), I think I am doing ok, just have a player complain of "motivation" for his character to stop the Hordes of Oblivion. Hmm...ok, how about they are sacking your newly won keep? Guess that worked. ;o)
Since the main 10 people group is preoccupied with an interum campain in middle earth, it may be 6-8 months before I pick up the bigger group. I think I should have a bit better knowledge on DMing and I watch our current DM(s) and how they run the group.
My problem I am running across is the group always has a plan A & B, but then they go with F. So I am usually stuck with winging the encounter. Not that it is overly troublesome, I just throw really pain in the butt monsters or off the wall situations that make them think a bit more.
I think the question was asked about what characters are being brought for the epic campain. For the core of the group, they have been RPing their characters since 1, so they have come a long way already, but the rest of the group it may be bringing in a new guy.
Thanks again for all the responses and advice! I think I will hold off until I get more DM experience under my belt. Thanks!!