This is how I see it.
Retail for monthly Dungeon and Dragon is $16 at about 200 pages total.
Assume 40% (I think this is a high estimate for these speciality mags) is advertising that leaves us with 120 pages for $16.
So we're looking at a reduction of minimum 20 pages of material and a price hike of $4 for Pathfinder (96 pages, $20).
That leaves us with a MINIMUM price increase of 66%.
That is quite significant.
Why is the price increasing you ask?
Lack of advertising makes the magazine/book more expensive.
Pathfinder will focus mainly on adventure paths limiting it to primarily GM's interest thus a smaller consumer base.
However,
Pathfinder sounds as if it is exactly the kind of adventure path we have been asking for:
Non standard monsters
Rule use outside the core
Loads of setting material outside the adventure
What we are loosing:
A standard campaign setting: Greyhawk
Articles: There will be fewer of them
Money: It's more expensive
The Dungeon and Dragon name
Protected WOTC content.... no more beholder fights
BOTTOM LINE:
Pathfinder looks like an excellent resource for GM's.
I will be buying it.
It is VERY expensive compared to Dungeon and Dragon magazine.
WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO KEEP IN ADVERTISING TO REDUCE THE COST?
ie: KEEP IT A MAGAZINE
Subscribers are only getting a 30% price reduction on Pathfinder instead of a 35% reduction.....
Hmmmmm..... very sneaky.
Also,
Paizo only has to pay one round of parcel post for the magazine rather than 2 for Dungeon and Dragon (a savings of $4 an issue according to staff from another post).
This really is too much.....
Chief Technical Officer
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Erik Mona posted this in another thread:
Here are some points to consider about Pathfinder:
• Each volume is a perfect-bound book with a cardstock cover and a much thicker quality of paper. It will be _much_ more durable than a magazine.
• Unlike the magazines, Pathfinder's content will not be subsidized by ads, resulting in more content for you.
• Pathfinder will include content similar to that found in both Dragon and Dungeon. It's perhaps more accurate to say that it is a replacement for both magazines, rather than a replacement for just one.
But yeah, Pathfinder is more expensive than Dragon and Dungeon. There's no getting away from that. We believe it will be a higher-quality product and we think it will be more than worth the price. A better comparison in terms of value is probably a product like WotC's "Red Hand of Doom."
And James Jacobs did some math of his own:
Counting the Adventure Path material in Dragon and Dungeon over the course of a year, Savage Tide would clock in at about 450 pages. The Adventure Path material in Pathfinder over a year will be closer to 1,152 pages. And you'll get 2 Adventure Paths instead of 1 per year.
I will probably be canceling because of the poor conversion rate for long time subscribers.
Since it is a book I'm thinking Amazon may be the best bet by ordering two issues with their standard 37% discount and free two day shipping.
It does make you wonder how they are making a profit as a retailer when Paizo isn't.
And that's why this is the beginning of the end for Paizo. Their only advantage was the format, and Hasbro did for that. Talk about doing your job too well...
Since it is a book I'm thinking Amazon may be the best bet by ordering two issues with their standard 37% discount and free two day shipping.
It does make you wonder how they are making a profit as a retailer when Paizo isn't.
I don't think Paizo will mind terribly if you still buy their product. And you are absolutely right if you're willing to wait a bit longer, you can get your books a lot cheaper ... at least when you live in the States.
Living in Europe, I've always had to pay a LOT more for my Dungeon magazine subscription than you guys in America. I'm quite happy of the idea that price differences between you and us have been reduced to only one dollar.
Don't forget, all you "across borders" people will be able to use the PDF. Instant delivery, no more waiting.
Honestly? I could care less about the magazine. It just takes up space.
Is there a way to do a PDF Only subscription? I've been buying my Hero books as PDF for some time. Searchable, portable, printable, and they work well with my eDM Screen (3 monitors linked to a PC).
Yeah, it's a bit harder to read. But if the PDF is done right, Adobe will read it to me. Will this functionality be a possibility?
Thanks
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Senior Software Developer
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We've talked about doing a PDF-only subscription and I can't remember the reason it's not an option right now. I'm afraid the answer might have been strictly technical, which means it's my job to revise our subscription code to handle it. If that's the case, then... ummm.... one more thing on my to-do list.
Not to worry. I'll see how the first 6 months go. It'd be nice to see the product.
If the PDF option is available, I'll look at it in month 9.
Thanks!
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I will probably be canceling because of the poor conversion rate for long time subscribers.
Since it is a book I'm thinking Amazon may be the best bet by ordering two issues with their standard 37% discount and free two day shipping.
It does make you wonder how they are making a profit as a retailer when Paizo isn't.
Funny, I don't seem to find Pathfinder anywhere on Amazon and in fact I find two of the Gamemastery modules on there, but at the same price as Paizo...
So I am curious just how will you be getting this through Amazon when they are not yet carrying it and what they do offer is the same price as Paizo? Or do you just plan on getting a beat up second hand copy next year?
A few people here are pointing out what we as subscribers will be losing - some cash (compared to the existing products), particular campaign settings, and certain protected monsters. But I need to focus here on what we'll be gaining, which is continually excellent adventures from the best in the business. Imagine the void if this crew just disappears.
I'll still check out the new WoTC content, and will even peruse the rules and make my decision when 4.0 comes out, but there is no way I will voluntarily create a void in my gaming content to save a few bucks or because I'm waxing nostalgic over Greyhawk and the beholder.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Pathfinder should appear on Amazon in a couple days. The whole thing showed up there accidentally about three weeks ago, causing massive heart failure throughout our office. We asked them to take down the pages until the announcement, and they did. It takes a few days to re-reverse the posting.
I have no idea what discount Amazon will offer (if any). That's their decision to make, not ours.
--Erik
It does make you wonder how they are making a profit as a retailer when Paizo isn't.
We wouldn't be in the retail business if it wasn't turning a profit.
Food for thought.
The whole thing showed up there accidentally about three weeks ago, causing massive heart failure throughout our office.
WHOAH. Being a corporate guy myself, I understand how that's a real good way to cause massively multi-person brain explosions through inadvertently pre-releasing product info! How do you find out about it? Does someone have on their desktop an auto-refresh page on Paizo's offerings within Amazon?
I will probably be canceling because of the poor conversion rate for long time subscribers.
Since it is a book I'm thinking Amazon may be the best bet by ordering two issues with their standard 37% discount and free two day shipping.
It does make you wonder how they are making a profit as a retailer when Paizo isn't.
You mean those mags you paid less for than people who bought a 1 year subscription? Are those the ones you're talking about? And you 'threaten' to buy from Amazon? Huh?
Personally I like you rant in the other thread better where you say Paizo should be sued. That was funny reading.
I will probably be canceling because of the poor conversion rate for long time subscribers.
Since it is a book I'm thinking Amazon may be the best bet by ordering two issues with their standard 37% discount and free two day shipping.
It does make you wonder how they are making a profit as a retailer when Paizo isn't.
You mean those mags you paid less for than people who bought a 1 year subscription? Are those the ones you're talking about? And you 'threaten' to buy from Amazon? Huh?
Personally I like you rant in the other thread better where you say Paizo should be sued. That was funny reading.
Dragon, Dungeon and Pathfinder are niche hobby gaming products.
In marketing 10% of the beer drinkers drink 90% of the beer. If you sell beer those are the customers you really want to attract.
According to posts on the boards at Wizard's over 5,000,000 people play the game but only 40,000 or so subscribe to Dungeon and Dragon. Less than 1% of people who play the game subscribed. I would think that a significant number of those subscribers are among the 10% who purchase 90% of the gaming material.
It was unfortunate that Wizard's recalled the license since their products tend to be of poorer quality and value to those of Paizo IMO.
I was a long time subscriber to the magazines but chose not to renew the Dragon subscription after 3 years. All customers contracted for a certain amount of issues from Paizo for a certain price usually with a few issue and pricing options. IMO the conversion rate should be the same.
I am missing 2 of the first 10 issues of Dungeon and have hundreds of Dragon issues. Getting old back issues isn't an option in my case as I would have the issue if I really wanted it or wanted more than a single copy of it. The same goes for many other Paizo products.
Pathfinder is basically a soft cover monthly series adventure book with a few adventure a year which is a pricey amount if you don't like the adventure.
I don't have money to burn. If if I exercise a little judgement I can buy more of the things I like. Like many customers I do not need the issue specially shipped other than book or magazine rate which is significantly cheaper and already factored into my subscription. I have no problem waiting a few days or even a month to receive two issues to save the money from the additional Paizo shipping charges which add up to a significant amount of change in a year.
I generally like the quality of the Paizo products I purchase and would have converted to Pathfinder with a standard issue conversion rate without the additional shipping charges.
I know some customers love all the artistic art and maps in the source materials. Personally I'm getting tired of paying for all that fluff that I don't need besides with Wizard's you know you will still receive plenty in the future. Maybe I'm a minority but I prefer a few simple black and white sketches and maps (particularly if you are going to be printing from a pdf) with more text for the adventures or gaming material.
Glad you enjoyed my rant. I take exception to the proposed conversion subscription rate with the additional shipping charges which I am entitled to as the customer since it is not what I contracted for. If enough subscibers do this Paizo might address this issue. If they don't I will happily take my refund but probably won't purchase the Pathfinder series other than through a retailer like Amazon if I decide to purchase it at all. If Paizo doesn't utilize secondary retailers I probably won't be the only former subscriber who doesn't purchase the Pathfinder series. Either way Paizo gets less money. The loss of a single customer or two like myself out of 40,000 or so doesn't matter to Paizo particularly in the short run if people convert and buy other Paizo products.
My point regarding Amazon is simply that as a secondary retailer a customer can generally purchase Dungeons and Dragons gaming material at a significant discount from suggested retail price many times with free shipping. Paizo should also receive less revenue from a retailer than if they sold one of their products directly to the customer. As the source of the product I believe Paizo should be able to market their products directly to customers better than Amazon or other secondary retailers.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I take exception to the proposed conversion subscription rate with the additional shipping charges which I am entitled to as the customer since it is not what I contracted for.
To be clear, shipping is included on the converted issues. Shipping fees are extra on ongoing (paid) month-to-month subscriptions partly because customers have long been asking to have the ability to pay extra for higher priority shipping on their subscriptions, and this will allow them to choose their level of service.
As for the actual conversion rate, it's primarily based on two things: how much your potential refund value is, and where we have to ship your copies. (We round up a lot in your favor, because we want people to check Pathfinder out.) So if you had, say, five issues left that you had paid a buck each for, you'd be offered the same number of Pathfinder volumes as a neighbor who had one magazine issue left that he paid five bucks for.
If Paizo doesn't utilize secondary retailers I probably won't be the only former subscriber who doesn't purchase the Pathfinder series.
Pathfinder will be available wherever fine roleplaying products are sold.
As the source of the product I believe Paizo should be able to market their products directly to customers better than Amazon or other secondary retailers.
If by "market better" you're suggesting "discount more," it's not that simple. If we sell our products lower than our MSRP, retailers will feel that we're undercutting them, and may choose not to carry any of our products. You'll note that we only offer discounts on subscription products, while single product prices for the products we publish are all at MSRP.