I am going to start a Waterdeep adventure once the Undermountain book comes out. I was going over things and magic shops came up. This has always been a hard choice for me. I want the players go and earn the items. From the players side I know they will want to be able to buy themselves items. I don't like the "If you got the money for it then you can buy it approach". I also don't want to sit there and random rolls up items for the shops (which I did in second ed). Anyone have suggestions on a middle ground?
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I am going to start a Waterdeep adventure once the Undermountain book comes out. I was going over things and magic shops came up. This has always been a hard choice for me. I want the players go and earn the items. From the players side I know they will want to be able to buy themselves items. I don't like the "If you got the money for it then you can buy it approach". I also don't want to sit there and random rolls up items for the shops (which I did in second ed). Anyone have suggestions on a middle ground?
As I mentioned in a previous post, the Red Wizards only sell magic items of 2000gp value or less. So does that mean you have to have every magic item for 2000gp or less in that single shop...well no. You could break it down into sections like 0 to 500gp, 500gp to 1000gp, ect... Now I know Waterdeep doesnt have Red Wizards there, but you could use the same rules for the mage stores or even the arcane guild there.
Also, I have created a way for PC's in my game to commission items from casters... Basically, the PC's must make a Gather Info check to find a spellcaster to create the item. I use a DC of 15+the caster level of the item. For example, if they want a Belt of Dwarvenkind, they must make a DC 27 gather info check to find a person that can do that. THEN they must make a deiplomacy check to change that persons attitude to helpful, cuz lets face it, the NPC is giving up part of his life-force to create a magic item for them. As for cost, it could be up to you how to charge, but I do 10% above cost for minor, 20% for medium, and 30% for major items.
Hope that gives you a hand.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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One system that I've used in the past is to have players spend time and/or make a skill check to find a particular item, the amount of time and/or DC of which are based on the price of the item. It's not a perfect system at high levels because magic item costs increase exponentially rather than linearly, but it'll get you a long way there. I think it was a Gather Information check DC 15 + 1 for every 10k gps in value of the item. The check takes a minimum of 1 day plus an additional day for every 10k gps in value of the item.
Come to think of it, what make the most sense is to have the +1 be based on the gp limit of the city somehow. So, it's +1 for every 1k gps in small town and maybe +1 for every 50k gps in a big city. Potions, scrolls, and wands can be aggregated for this check.
This system preserves a lot of player choice but gives them a sense of having to work to find the magic items in the city; you can explain the amount of time required as part of shipping, locating, etc to add versimilitude to the magic item market (avoiding the so-called Wal-Mart effect). If your players want to pick up something on the spot, you could always have a short list of interesting items to offer them rather the creating individualized inventories for each shop.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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A few other points:
1. Remember that magic items should sell for 1/2 their list price.
2. The above system can also be used for locating a buyer in order to sell items.
3. To encourage crafting, I frequently limit magic items found in shops to those found in the DMG. Any custom items, including items that use a different slot from the slot listed in the DMG (e.g., glasses of ogre strength), must be manufactured by the players or commissioned.
4. This downtime mechanism gives the rogue/bard something to do while the wizard/sorc/cleric/druid are scribing/crafting/brewing. It works well in that regard as well.
I like your GI check to find stuff idea. Means the wizzy stays dependant on the social characters too :)
I have always had a problem with magic shops and the whole idea of them as have most of my players; none of us have magic shops in our games. Magic should be more rare and wonderful not to mass market. i have never even heard of someone who had a series of magic shop emporiums in there game.
it would be a different game if there was an Magic Mart on the corner to get your discount magic items; or Magic by Fabrej to get your unique items. hmm.
I like Sebastian's system so far. The gather information is a nice quick game way to have them search the city for what they want. Smiths, temple, other adventuring groups and shopkeepers are all place you have to look at. Might make my group actually have a character with a positive charisma modifier.
On a side note DmRrostarr there is a Thayen Enclave in Waterdeep now. The Red Wizards have become quite diplomatic and most major city in the realms has an enclave. They limit themselves to selling no magic item over 2k gp.
And to Valefrim what does your group do with any unwanted magic items?? If you trade them to a merchant won't the merchant turn around and sell it to someone else?
I don't have shops that stock shelves full of magic items. Yet people can buy virtually any item they want.
If someone wants a Keen Rapier +2 (for example), and the community is large enough to be able to supply an item worth 36,000gp, then the PC can go to the local wizard's guild (if there is one, or make Gather Information or Knowledge-Local checks to find out about local enchanters if there's no guild). They specify the item they want, pay the gold, and the enchanter crafts the item to order.
If you wanted, you could also consider that the Gather Info check helps them find an enchanter who is immediately available - maybe the only three spellcasters in the area who are capable of making the desired item are all working on other projects, for example. A Gather Info check at a moderate DC lets them know the name of the best-known of these three fellows (who won't be available for at least a month), and a higher DC gets them the names of the other two (and a really good success lets the PC know that one in particular can be bribed with a particular item in order to bump this ahead on his schedule).
With this, you allow the player's to choose the items they want, but you give yourself room to demand side quests of them (to reach a specific enchanter, or to get the item needed for a bribe), plus role-playing opportunities (maybe they need to stay on the good side of the local wizards' guild in order to have these services available).
I am going to start a Waterdeep adventure once the Undermountain book comes out. I was going over things and magic shops came up. This has always been a hard choice for me. I want the players go and earn the items. From the players side I know they will want to be able to buy themselves items. I don't like the "If you got the money for it then you can buy it approach". I also don't want to sit there and random rolls up items for the shops (which I did in second ed). Anyone have suggestions on a middle ground?
I make them buy them custom-made (wait for the construction time to elapse) and pay the XP cost as well as the gold. This has the advantage of slowing level advancement somewhat (it's too fast for our taste in 3e) and also means that the local wizard can profit by making magic items without using up all of his life force in the process.
I guess they just carry them with them, use them to bribe mobs as needed, offer them up as sacrifices to dieties; magic item are not rare but are certainly not common in my game and a player is not likely to find just a +1 weapon that does not have other special qualities; very few of the magic items I have given have been not wanted; I once gave about 10 scarves of protection from vorpal weapons; so if a vorpal effect happened and you would loose a limb or your head; it would cut off the scarf instead; nobody ever wore one though and a few lost some limbs; go figure; sometimes a gm just doesnt understand pc logic. I also play by the rule left over from 1e that magic items have associated experience gains associated with them; so a person has the option of using magic to identify and object and gaining no bonus exps or trying various things until the item does something and gaining the bonus.
I have never had a group of pc's ever try to sell a magic item to a vendor; is kind of a hmm now that I think back on it. A game with a plethora of magic items is a monty haul adventure to me; if you pcs have 6 swords to Sunday to defeat every mob then where is the challenge to defeat all the mobs; if all it takes is some gold then a third level mage with a staff of power; robe of the archmagi, bracers of power; ring of whatever and wands galore could take on just about anything; where is the game in that. getting a +1 sword is a whole lot less special if i can just buy one at the store; same goes for the +3 sword of whatever; it becomes just cash rather than a good story.
Of course, my world generally has subsistance living also; so there are no great thriving trade commmunities or metropolis centers; if you have a magic item in a city your quite likely to get mugged if you dont look tuff enough to keep it.
A hefty amount of experience with the 3ed rules has taught me this:
If a character has the money, the character should be able to spend it.
Some will say the character should earn the item. Didn't the character earn the gold pieces? Some will say if a character wants it, I'll put it in the adventure. Isn't that the same as the character handing the DM a shopping list (except you pay with combat)? Still others will say that giving the characters just buy what they want, it will create a "monty haul" enviornment. I say, not if you are following the guidelines in the DMG.
The rules are built around certain wealth expectations. Characters are expected to have certain gear at certain levels. Do you know why the lowest CR creature in the Monster Manual with the incoropreal subtype is a CR 3? Because at third level there should be more than one magic weapon in the party so that they can deal with it. It goes all the way through the system. CR 10's will use up 20% of a 10th level party's resources. If you didn't let that party equip itself then that 20% will be in the form of raise dead spells. I advise letting the party spend its gold it Waterdeep. If you are wary about their wealth, then do periodic character audits and make sure they're in line with the expectations in the DMG. Trust me, your players will enjoy it, and your game won't collapse.
Note: This is not to say that a lower magic or reduced wealth campaign would not be enjoyed by the players. That type of campaign can be big fun, but the DM has to keep a closer eye on the power levels of creatures vs. the characters. And, of course, its your game. Run it to suit your tastes.
I agree with Ghettowedge. The party has earned the money, there are wealth-by-level guidelines to keep things balanced, so let the party do what they want.
I also will go ahead and throw out my take on the price increase because of XP burn. I don't like it. The price already assumes that. If an item costs 50,000gp, then the RAW seem to be saying that the caster is willing to trade 50,000gp for his time, efforts, personal expenditures, and lost energy. Further hiking the price for something already accounted for (XP) doesn't make any sense to me.
There is something that I try to do, however, to avoid the Wal-Mart feel (which is a bad thing, I think). The rules assume that, if you have the gold and are in a population center large enough to have an item crafter, one exists. So, go meet him! Just as you would describe the king, the strange beggar on the street, the elven diplomat, the scary warrior, the evil wizard... describe the guy they're doing business with! He may be one of only three magic item crafters and dealers in the city, or he may be the only one! He's special, not just some faceless entity.
As a person of such an disposition, he'd be interested in acquiring new magic items from the party, which he could use, study, or sell to advance his research. Takes care of the party's selling the stuff.
Now, as far as crafting the items, I'm not going to charge more than the DMG lists, except in highly, highly unusual circumstances. However, before this guy makes something for these people, he wants to know them a bit better. He sends them to retrieve the heart of the earth elemental bound in the destroyed wizard's school. He has them hunt dopplegangers for their skin (prized in making hats of disguise and other such options). Or maybe he just makes it, but calls in favors later.
He is an NPC like any other, alive and dynamic, not just an entity that supplies the party with junk. If you play this element up, it reminds the players that magic is rare and wonderous without affecting the game mechanics at all (which I consider a good thing). Plus, how cool is it to be able to proclaim, "This is my blade, the Sword of Razath, forged by the elven artificers of Cormanthor to defeat you, (insert BBEG's name here)!" Seems epic and heroic enough to me.
But, that's just my 2c. Happy gaming!
hehe nothing is a better money drain on pcs than building and maintaining a castle hehe same as any home; that was always the big deal about getting to name level in 1e; you could mark out a territory for yourself and build a castle
I do allow purchasing Magic items in my homebrew. And I've never adjusted the price unless the merchant was greedy or downright mean. My main city is a trading hub for the continent where anything is available if you know where to look, who to ask, and have enough gold.
Currently, one of the larger guilds that sell them is run by a not so nice NPC and his family and/or students. Since they are the largest in the trade city, they keep an eye on who buys what from them. They also don't deal with people who become "bothersome".
So, in essence I'm close to Saern's idea of making players interact with the merchant. Players act up or try throwing their weight around, they get bounced and banned. And this store has pull in the city's power structure. There are smaller shops, but they don't have the size or volume.
I don't use magic shops either... But magic items are for sale nonetheless.
I also use a Gather Information roll...
DC Rolled / Item Found
0 to 14 / no item found
15 to 20 / 1 minor magic item
21 to 25 / 1d4 minor magic items
26 to 30 / 1d6 minor and 1 medium magic items
31 to 35 / 1d8 minor and 1d4 medium magic items
36 and up / 1d10 minor, 1d6 medium and 1 major magic items
These DCs are for a major city or capital, add +5 to the DCs for smaller cities, +10 to the DCs for towns, +15 to the DCs for villages. All the items are rolled randomly (excluding potions and scrolls), which those can be found in abundance at the temples and/or local wizard's house.
I argue that even in a small town, there's bound to be an old widow who would like to depart with her late husband's Shield +3. So each item has a different vendor, but I don't roleplay each purchase.
Ultradan
Bear in mind that Waterdeep is the home of several large, famous wizard academies, some of which, including the Blackstaff Academy, are known for making magic items for sale...
I also will go ahead and throw out my take on the price increase because of XP burn. I don't like it. The price already assumes that. If an item costs 50,000gp, then the RAW seem to be saying that the caster is willing to trade 50,000gp for his time, efforts, personal expenditures, and lost energy. Further hiking the price for something already accounted for (XP) doesn't make any sense to me.
I don't advise hiking the prices, either. In my campaign, we all agreed that advancement was too fast. I also noticed that not one player was willing to actually make items, due to the XP loss. Our houserule (purchaser pays the xp cost) makes item creation feats worthwhile ("I'll lose the xp anyway, but this way it's half price!") and slows advancement to a rate we're happy with. Your milage of course may vary.