RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Taking a page from the World of Warcraft d20 RPG, I noticed that they had a pretty clever idea to simplify a few skills by grouping them together.
Specifically, they grouped Hide and Move Silently into 'Stealth' and grouped Spot and Listen into 'Sense.' This seems like a really good idea to me. Very seldom do you ever have characters making Move Silently checks WITHOUT making Hide checks and the same is mostly true for Spot and Listen as well (though Spot and Listen are probably used separately more than Hide and Move Silently are). Plus, Hide and Move Silently both use the same ability modifier (Dex) and so do Spot and Listen (Wis). It opens up a few more skill points for classes that focus on these skills and seems like it would eliminate the need for additional dice rolls.
Has anyone else ever worked with this mechanic, either by actually playing the WoW RPG or by making similar modifications to existing d20 games? I think I might start doing this for my games in the future. I'm curious to see if anyone has anything negative to say about this method.
Mutants&Masterminds also uses this option. It also adds one other, really good, option. Namely the 'other' senses.
In D&D, if you hide from something with Scent, what would you roll? There's no skill for that. With the grouping, all these simply fall under the Stealth option. Of course you could add some circumstance bonusses (ie: a penalty if you do not have the sense yourself, or a penalty when you are not aware someone has a particular sense) and really make your life a lot easier.
Also, Tumble and Balance are combined into Athletics (Jump should be added too in D&D, it doesn't exist as a skill in M&M) and I believe some others are as well. I'll check up tomorrow, it's a bit late for that now :)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Also, Tumble and Balance are combined into Athletics (Jump should be added too in D&D, it doesn't exist as a skill in M&M) and I believe some others are as well. I'll check up tomorrow, it's a bit late for that now :)
I probably wouldn't make this grouping (and especially not Jump) because the skills are, in my opinion, fundamentally different enough to warrant different checks (i.e. used in different situations). My evidence of this lies in the fact that there are numerous scenarios in which one would make a Tumble check WIHTOUT needing a Balance check and vice versa. Meanwhile, the other groups are used together almost all the time. Plus, Jump is Strength-based while the others are Dexterity-based. If you included Jump in the grouping, then by association, barbarians and fighters would now have 'Tumble' as an in-class skill since they would all use 'Athletics.'
I like this idea, but I think rogues would have a hay day with all the extra skill points they would end up with.
Fizz
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I like this idea, but I think rogues would have a hay day with all the extra skill points they would end up with.
Well, considering that most rogues tend to max out Hide and Move Silently, it would really only open up the ability to max out one other skill (or provide a moderate boost to a few others). Spot and Listen (if I remember correctly) are not class skills for rogues.
I personally really dig the Iron Heroes skill groups, rather than just combining skills into one.
I like this idea, but I think rogues would have a hay day with all the extra skill points they would end up with.Well, considering that most rogues tend to max out Hide and Move Silently, it would really only open up the ability to max out one other skill (or provide a moderate boost to a few others). Spot and Listen (if I remember correctly) are not class skills for rogues.
Spot and Listen are in fact Rogue class skills. A human Rogue with high intelligence would seriously be in a heap load of skill points. If you were to do this you'd need to reduce skill points by a few (2 for rogues, and 1 for classes with 6 points per level) at least in my opinion. Quick and dirty.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Spot and Listen are in fact Rogue class skills. A human Rogue with high intelligence would seriously be in a heap load of skill points. If you were to do this you'd need to reduce skill points by a few (2 for rogues, and 1 for classes with 6 points per level) at least in my opinion. Quick and dirty.
Eh, rogues already get more skill points than they know what to do with. Maybe the extra skill points would go into 'flavor' skills like Profession or Craft. I can't really think of anything game-breaking that a rogue could do with an extra 2 skill points per level (and an extra 8 at first level).
"No way, dude! This house rule is broken! Joe's rogue has max ranks in all his useful rogue stuff and now he's got max ranks in Perform (comedy) and Appraise too! That's not fair!"
"Umm... okay. To even it out, you can have max ranks in Craft (pottery) for free on your paladin."
"Awesome! That's cool."
"Yeah..."
I've always been in favor of awarding MORE skill points, not less. I've come very close to decreeing that all classes that only get 2 + Int mod skill points should get 4 + Int mod instead. The fighter has got to be good at something other than jumping and riding. I mean, c'mon!
Spot and Listen are in fact Rogue class skills. A human Rogue with high intelligence would seriously be in a heap load of skill points. If you were to do this you'd need to reduce skill points by a few (2 for rogues, and 1 for classes with 6 points per level) at least in my opinion. Quick and dirty.Eh, rogues already get more skill points than they know what to do with. Maybe the extra skill points would go into 'flavor' skills like Profession or Craft. I can't really think of anything game-breaking that a rogue could do with an extra 2 skill points per level (and an extra 8 at first level).
"No way, dude! This house rule is broken! Joe's rogue has max ranks in all his useful rogue stuff and now he's got max ranks in Perform (comedy) and Appraise too! That's not fair!"
"Umm... okay. To even it out, you can have max ranks in Craft (pottery) for free on your paladin."
"Awesome! That's cool."
"Yeah..."I've always been in favor of awarding MORE skill points, not less. I've come very close to decreeing that all classes that only get 2 + Int mod skill points should get 4 + Int mod instead. The fighter has got to be good at something other than jumping and riding. I mean, c'mon!
Yeah maybe you're right. There are a lot of skills, and outside of the main sense/stealth etc. there's not a lot of real use out of them. I guess cross class skills are a pretty decent limiter, being only half as high as class skills.
I had an idea in my head something like that too for the 2 + INT classes as well.
Ai, I wasn't saying it'd be balanced for D&D. M&M relies on skill checks far less and it's more or less based on 'simple = better' so it combined a few things.
Since anyone can buy as many skills as they need, it's not really gamebreaking either; the points aren't fixed per level or anything.
For D&D, I'd probably not recommend a lot of combining since indeed the number of skills per class is based upon the assumption that Move Silently, Hide, Spot and Listen are 4 skills, not two.
Of course, you could always combine the two and make them cost 2 skill points per rank. Ease of game, without worrying about breaking anything.
I have used the iron heros skill groups and did not like how they played out. I have used the Sneak for two or three years and it has worked out great. So what if the rogue has more skill points so does the ranger. There are so many different things to do with a rogue that extra skill points are great to have. From a DM's perspectave that means your NPC can have maxed out Sneak AND maxed out Use Magic Device...
Hmm- the rogues in my parties never seemed to worry with Spot and Listen. They seemed to get along just fine. Then again, one of our players was a ranger fanatic, and he always had maxed Spot, Listen, and Survival as a matter of course, so maybe my experience is a little skewed.
Anyway, while I can think of some situations that aren't too far outside the normal useages of Hide and Move Silently that would call for one check and not both, none of them negate the idea of using the Stealth grouping instead. However, Spot and Listen are two different things entirely, and I wouldn't group them.
If you hear something clomping loudly through the trees towards you, it could be a couple of orcs or dwarves or a bear or an owlbear or an umberhulk or a troll or a centaur, or even a green dragon coming to pay you a visit. You'd have no idea, other than something is coming this way, and it's loud. Now, obviously you wouldn't need a Listen check to notice this, but I'm just pointing out the way humans percieve the sense.
If you see something, you know much more about it. Though humans rely on a balance of senses, we lean towards sight as our predominant one. It's the most useful, in truth. It reveals a very different kind of information.
Now, one could simply roll a Sense check and then let the DM decide if you saw or heard something, but that's getting fuzzy and could feel arbitrary in certain situations. The two are different enough that I wouldn't combine them.
Also, there is the matter of skill points to consider. Rogues get a lot, but they often feel like it's just... not... quite... enough! That's good, in my opinion. It really makes them have to decide what type of rogue they're going to be. Acrobat/burglar? Spy/diplomat? A hodgepodge combination? The fact that a rogue doesn't have the ability to pick up every skill on his list allows them to specialize and make a distinction about themselves. I consider this a good thing.
Then, look at barbarians. They specifically get Listen, but not Spot, on their list of class skills. The point? Hell if I know, but I think it's supposed to reflect their uncanny senses even more.
Do what you want- in the end, it's only one virtual skill point to classes like barbarians, and two to rogues, rangers, and such. While I'm sure they'll appreciate it and it may not strictly be "balanced," I'm also confident your game isn't going to suddenly collapse over it. It's not for me, though.