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How difficult do you think it would be for a Cleric to create a makeshift divine focus? Would there have to be a ceremony, or could a quick, silent prayer do the trick?
In our current game, we've been imprisoned with nothing but loincloths. There are 3 other prisoners in separate cells. I was considering taking a piece of loincloth, and drawing the holy symbol in blood with a piece of straw from the bedding, possibly while the other two PCs create a distraction.
Also, does a cleric have to pray out loud in order to regain his spells?
I would love to hear others' interpretations of how to make this work. I ran into this very issue just recently in our AoW game, but managed to neatly avoid the problem luckily.
In retrospect, it seems to me that a divine focus must require a certain amount of time, energy, and rituals to make it work. Not just any hairball, or pee-stained loincloth would work without some extensive praying and candles and chanting etc. I'm imagining that this might take 1-2 days to complete, as the cleric transmutes said loin cloth into an actual relic of the faith, imbuing it with divine energy.
That may be a bit stiff, but that's what my imagination comes up with off the cuff.
As for praying out loud for spells, I'd say no. This is a personal communication with one's god, and need not require verbal input. Casting the spells is loud enough. A wizard doesn't have to make noise while they study, why would a cleric have to pray out loud?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Duh. Read the rules. From the SRD:
Holy Symbol, Silver or Wooden
A holy symbol focuses positive energy. A cleric or paladin uses it as the focus for his spells and as a tool for turning undead. Each religion has its own holy symbol.
Wait...that's what it says? Okay, never mind the read the rules comment.
Honestly, that's a good question. On the one hand, there should be some ability to impair the ability of divine casters by taking away their holy symbol. On the other hand, this sounds like a cool escape plan. Here's how I'd handle it:
1. Require a craft check to make an adequate holy symbol. Such a holy symbol would be the same as the one you purchase at a store and would have the same effect. I'm guessing your character doesn't have access to the appropriate materials/skills, but this would be the optimal situation.
2. Let someone jury-rig a holy symbol. That's what you're trying to do. I'd probably give the holy symbol a spell failure chance, somewhere in the 20-30% range, but let the jury-rigged holy symbol work. Maybe on a roll of 00 it breaks or attracts divine wrath.
There are probably better answers to the question, but those are my off the cuff ideas. Hope they help.
Edit: As for the praying out loud to regain spells, I would think it would be required. The way the 3e preparation system works is that a caster pre-casts 99% of the spell. That way, in the heat of combat, all they need to do is finish the casting and the spell takes effect. So, whatever the components are to cast the spell would also be required to prepare the spell. I'd probably go so far as to say this includes attuning the appropriate material components so that they are ready to use at that time as well.
Holy Symbol, Silver or Wooden1. Require a craft check to make an adequate holy symbol. Such a holy symbol would be the same as the one you purchase at a store and would have the same effect. I'm guessing your character doesn't have access to the appropriate materials/skills, but this would be the optimal situation.
2. Let someone jury-rig a holy symbol. That's what you're trying to do. I'd probably give the holy symbol a spell failure chance, somewhere in the 20-30% range, but let the jury-rigged holy symbol work. Maybe on a roll of 00 it breaks or attracts divine wrath.
Edit: As for the praying out loud to regain spells, I would think it would be required. The way the 3e preparation system works is that a caster pre-casts 99% of the spell. That way, in the heat of combat, all they need to do is finish the casting and the spell takes effect. So, whatever the components are to cast the spell would also be required to prepare the spell. I'd probably go so far as to say this includes attuning the appropriate material components so that they are ready to use at that time as well.
I agree. The craft check seems especially appropriate - and adds value to those little used craft skills.
If you fail the DC to craft the holy symbol then perhaps there is the 30% spell failure with 00 being a catastophic failure.Also the act of preparing does seem to imply pre-casting, so it would involve the use of the holy symbol plus any verbal, somantic, focuses or material components necessary to complete the spell. But ... you could argue that it is just mentally reminding yourself what you intend to do during the day - kinda like writing out a to do list ...
Duh. Read the rules.
Dammit! I hate it when I giggle like that at work. Thanks a lot Sebastian. Sheesh.
I like Sebastian's idea of spell failure chance, because it's more interesting than my more flat idea of "it takes days to complete". I think my time requirements make a lot of sense (duh, it's my idea), but would be less fun to play.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Yeah, I'd have to say that I like the idea of makeshift holy symbols having spell failure associated with them. Here's what my call would be:
DC 15 Craft check to create the holy symbol. Can be done untrained. If you succeed at the craft check, the holy symbol only has 10% spell failure and will suffer 'catastrophic failure' on 00. If you fail by less than 5, it has 30% spell failure and will suffer 'catastrophic failure' at 00-05. If you fail by 5 or more, it cannot be employed as a focus at all. The Craft check should take 10 minutes (if simply a drawing) to an hour (if making a crude sculpture). I would also say that each time the spell failure of the symbol prevents a spell from functioning, the symbol gets a 'mark' against it. After 5 marks, the symbol becomes useless. The gods do not like having their symbol mocked in such a way and, while they're willing to grant their servant the ability to use such symbols in a bind, continually funneling their divine power through such an impure medium is probably somewhat insulting. Deities with a greater tolerance for such things might allow more marks (say 8-10) while less tolerant deities might allow less (2 or 3). I can see Ilmater (the LG god of suffering in FR) tolerating a great deal while Bane (LE god of tyranny in FR) would probably shun such abuse.
On praying out loud: Not necessarily. It would really depend on the god's preferences in question, or what the god's arenas of influence are. I could easily see Hextor requiring his priests do a series of calisthenics as part of their morning prayers.
On Divine Focii: I would allow a "jury-rigged" divine focus, depending on the relevant Craft skill and ranks in Knowledge (religion). I do like the idea of the "Divine Wrath" that Sebastian suggested - no god likes their symbols messed up that badly! :D
Prison tats for the win! :D
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I don't think this can help you in your current situation, but what about having your holy symbol/divine focus tattooed to your body for such emergency situations. It could be placed on the back of your hand or forearm to be presented towards your enemies.
That's exactly one of the things that I was thinking.
Seriously, thanks for all the help. I think I'll suggest the craft check/chance of spell failure thing for a makeshift holy symbol. I may even try to use some of the straw from my bedding. All I have to do is get my fellow prisoners to distract the guards.
As for the recovering spells thing, I reread the PH and it states that the cleric can spend an hour in "quiet contemplation or supplication" so I should at least be able to get my spells back. I'll just pretend to be sleeping. Then I just need to nail one of them with an Inflict spell maybe.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I don't buy the tattoo as holy symbol argument. You might as well just give clerics the feat that lets them cast without somantic components if you are going to allow that. The divine focus functions under the rules as a way to prevent clerics from casting spells. Making it so that it can't be removed takes away a limit on the cleric's power. At my table, I call that meta-gaming.
Or, if you are a good DM and you do allow such a sneaky tactic, it means that you'll just cut off the part of the body that is tattooed, the cleric's tongue, and/or hands. Player creativity can be its own worse enemy. I'd rather have the option of taking away the cleric's divine focus instead of maiming them, but your mileage may vary.
I don't buy the tattoo as holy symbol argument. You might as well just give clerics the feat that lets them cast without somantic components if you are going to allow that. The divine focus functions under the rules as a way to prevent clerics from casting spells. Making it so that it can't be removed takes away a limit on the cleric's power. At my table, I call that meta-gaming.
You think as I do. Personally I think that DMs don't steal spell books and destroy divine focii often enough when dealing with overpowered caster (but that is a whole other can of worms). The critics may argue that is wizards can use their bodies as spell books (tattoo variant) then a cleric should be able to blazen their shield or hand with a holy symbol.
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Of course, there are other ways to prevent a cleric from casting spells. Many of the cleric spells also have verbal and somatic components. Verbal can be taken care of with a gag. For somatic components, you need at least one hand free according to the PHB, so having the cleric tied or shackled would work also.
Tattoo's can be destroyed or taken away just like a holy symbol. My players are free to try it, but no complaining when the thing gets cut from their skin.
If the tattoo idea would work, it would be known and used (probably widespread). Every priest would want to have a "holy tattoo" just in case he loses the standard symbol. And everybody (especially jailers) might know of this, and take countermeasures (like cutting off the tattoed body part - your forehead? aww, it will leave an ugly scar - here goes your charisma...)
I would rather go for the makeshift holy symbol, with the craft check as proposed above. You might make the failure chance proportional to the missed craft roll - the worse the roll, the greater the failure chance (with a certain minimum failure chance for using an inadequate symbol).
You could also use knowledge (religion) for the failure roll, with each point the craft roll was below par raising the DC by one, and the base DC being, say 5+ Spell level - every priest worth the name should have maximum ranks in this knowledge IMHO, so it would not be too hard, but still allow for failure.
A first-level spell with DC 6 would be easy for a 1st level priest with at least +4 on the roll, and only fail on a 1 - he is fulfilling his basic duties, after all. If the craft roll was 5 below par, it would get much more difficult, however.
Stefan
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If the tattoo idea would work, it would be known and used (probably widespread). Every priest would want to have a "holy tattoo" just in case he loses the standard symbol. And everybody (especially jailers) might know of this, and take countermeasures (like cutting off the tattoed body part - your forehead? aww, it will leave an ugly scar - here goes your charisma...)
I would rather go for the makeshift holy symbol, with the craft check as proposed above. You might make the failure chance proportional to the missed craft roll - the worse the roll, the greater the failure chance (with a certain minimum failure chance for using an inadequate symbol).
You could also use knowledge (religion) for the failure roll, with each point the craft roll was below par raising the DC by one, and the base DC being, say 5+ Spell level - every priest worth the name should have maximum ranks in this knowledge IMHO, so it would not be too hard, but still allow for failure.
A first-level spell with DC 6 would be easy for a 1st level priest with at least +4 on the roll, and only fail on a 1 - he is fulfilling his basic duties, after all. If the craft roll was 5 below par, it would get much more difficult, however.Stefan
Yeah, all in all, the tattoo idea is probably a bad idea for the reasons you describe. I think the idea pooped into my head when I was looking through one of the core books and saw the picture of a dwarf with (I think) a hammer symbol on his forhead.
After thinking more about the situation my party is in, I think we can maybe get out without the holy symbol. There are a few spells that I can cast without a DF, including Comman and Searing Light. All I'd have to do is get free of my manacles, in order to perform the somatic component. With a strength of 20 and the Strength Domain ability that shouldn't be a problem. Also, if one guy in the party can distract the guards, then myself and the other spellcaster can maybe have a chance to buff ourselves with some healing spells.
Now here is another question, and I apologize in advance if its been asked before - Are Inflict spells evil? In the PHB they are not labeled as such, even though they channel negative energy. Is there some errata that corrects this?
Just as cure spells are not inherently good, inflict spells are not evil. You just channel positive and negative energy, what you do with that energy is up to you.
Inflict spells are not evil per se. I did not look up any errata, but St Cuthbert grants access to the destruction domain. This domain includes several inflict spells, contagion and harm, among others. St. Cuthbert is lawful neutral, and expressly forbids evil clerics, but allows for good ones. So, I´d say that if neutral and even good clerics can get this domain with these spells, the spells per se cannot be evil.
Their usage could be questionable when viewed from the "good" point of view, and would probably cause raised eyebrows at least, but they are not evil, even though these spells use negative energy, which is normally associated with evil and undeath.
Stefan
I don't think this can help you in your current situation, but what about having your holy symbol/divine focus tattooed to your body for such emergency situations. It could be placed on the back of your hand or forearm to be presented towards your enemies.
That reminds me of Sir Gawain, who had the Holy Mother painted on the inside of his shield, so as to be bolstered by the sight of her before each battle.