What are the rules for vocal and somatic components to spells cast underwater? Does Water Breathing (vocal) and/or Free Action (somatic) allow you to cast fine underwater?
Without then is it even possible, do you need a concentration check? What?
Are there any official rules anywhere?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Casting is inexplicably unhindered under the core rules. You need neither Silent nor Still Spell and there is not concentration check or spell failure chance. It's a bit wonky, but that's the way the rules are layed out.
If you do make changes to the underwater rules, do so with a significant dose of caution. Weapons are already hindered underwater and if you put restrictions on spellcasting as well, the EL of an underwater encounter should be increased by 2-3.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Casting is inexplicably unhindered under the core rules. You need neither Silent nor Still Spell and there is not concentration check or spell failure chance. It's a bit wonky, but that's the way the rules are layed out.
I agree that it's a little bit strange that casting underwater imposes no penalties whatsoever. In fact, my gut instinct is to create some house rules to overcome this little "glitch" in my virtual reality except...
If you do make changes to the underwater rules, do so with a significant dose of caution. Weapons are already hindered underwater and if you put restrictions on spellcasting as well, the EL of an underwater encounter should be increased by 2-3.
...he's right.
I just avoid underwater encounters entirely. Obviously not much of an option if you're running STAP, but yeah... it's ugly.
My problem is, from the SRD
"A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice."
I don't know anyone that can do that underwater.
I think giving a concentration check is being kind. And while Water Breathing doesn't mention anything about it, I would allow verbal components without a problem.
An alternate to a concentration check might be for every spell you cast with a verbal component you cast you reduce the number of rounds you can hold your breath for by one (or increase the Save DC by one if you have already run out of breath).
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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My problem is, from the SRD
"A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice."
I don't know anyone that can do that underwater.
I think giving a concentration check is being kind. And while Water Breathing doesn't mention anything about it, I would allow verbal components without a problem.
You can make loud noises underwater.
If a concentration check, a feat, or any other mechanic were required for casting underwater, it would be in the underwater combat section.
I feel your pain, I honestly do, but by the rules being underwater does not impede spellcasting. James Jacobs has posted on this issue in the past and said as much.
"A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice."
To be completely technical, nothing in there says you have to be intelligible. We always play it that you just have to speak the words and make the sound - underwater, abovewater, wherever.
Our group's basic philosophy agrees with earlier posters - being underwater hinders the group enough - unless you want to up the EL, it's probably best to let magic function more or less normally.
But I agree - there not being any penalties for underwater casting is not "logical." I think this is a case in the game where logic is set aside for the sake of balance and fun.
I usually impose a 20% misscast chance for verbal components if spoken underwater without the benefit of adaptive magic like water breathing, in addition to reducing your "rounds remaining" of breath by 4 for the purposes of holding your breath.
Basically, its enough to make "I hop in the water and duck beneath it to shoot the squid with melf's acid arrow" a little bit more in depth than just a player getting around the "spell effects don't cross water" paradigm.
For that matter, lets remember that it's not casting underwater thats the problem; its casting through the water/surface border. Seriously, anyone have any thoughts on the wierdness of the rules regarding this?
There is one type of spell that is affected when you're underwater: spells with the fire descriptor. They are impeded, when means you must make a DC 20+ spell level Spellcraft check to cast them. There is a feat in Stormwrack called Steam Magic that helps with this.
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I am pretty sure it's written in stormwrack somewhere that you have to be able to breathe underwater something to be able to cast spells with verbal components. In other words you have to be an aquatic creature, or be able to breathe water either through natural or magical means.
And as another poster mentioned, Fire-based spells are tough to pull off underwater as well, whether you can speak or not.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I am pretty sure it's written in stormwrack somewhere that you have to be able to breathe underwater something to be able to cast spells with verbal components. In other words you have to be an aquatic creature, or be able to breathe water either through natural or magical means.
And as another poster mentioned, Fire-based spells are tough to pull off underwater as well, whether you can speak or not.
If you can provide a cite, it would be much appreciated. Like I said, this issue has come up before and no one was able to point to any mechanic from the rules to adjudicate underwater spellcasting. I've looked through Stormwrack, and I haven't found such a section.
Edit: Also, if all spells are restricted, why have a section of rules specifically dealing with fire spells only? Shouldn't there be a general rule for all spells and then additional specific limitations for fire spells?
IDHTBIFOM, so I can't cite a page number and I can't quote anything from Stormwrack but I know for a fact there are more details about underwater combat in there, building on what is in the DMG. In the DMG it will be where it describes all the terrain types.
Here it is from the SRD:
Underwater Combat
Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when fighting in water. Water affects a creature’s Armor Class, attack rolls, damage, and movement. In some cases a creature’s opponents may get a bonus on attacks. The effects are summarized in the accompanying table. They apply whenever a character is swimming, walking in chestdeep water, or walking along the bottom.
Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.
Attacks from Land: Characters swimming, floating, or treading water on the surface, or wading in water at least chest deep, have improved cover (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves) from opponents on land. Landbound opponents who have freedom of movement effects ignore this cover when making melee attacks against targets in the water. A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
Fire: Nonmagical fire (including alchemist’s fire) does not burn underwater. Spells or spell-like effects with the fire descriptor are ineffective underwater unless the caster makes a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the spell creates a bubble of steam instead of its usual fiery effect, but otherwise the spell works as described. A supernatural fire effect is ineffective underwater unless its description states otherwise.
The surface of a body of water blocks line of effect for any fire spell. If the caster has made a Spellcraft check to make the fire spell usable underwater, the surface still blocks the spell’s line of effect.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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IDHTBIFOM, so I can't cite a page number and I can't quote anything from Stormwrack but I know for a fact there are more details about underwater combat in there, building on what is in the DMG. In the DMG it will be where it describes all the terrain types.
Yes, I am aware of what is in the DMG/SRD, but as pointed out, there is nothing about impeding spellcasting other than fire spells. I flipped through Stormwrack while writing my last post, and didn't see anything there. So, unless you can cite a page, I'm going to stand by my statement that there is no feat, concentration check, spellcraft check, or other mechanic required for casting underwater. If you can find something stating that such a mechanic _is_ definitively required, my hat is off to you and by all means, please post the rules here.
Sorry, I thought you were talking about the DMG. I don't know that it specifically has more on spellcasting underwater in Stormwrack, I meant that it expands on underwater combat in general.