I'm a a little confused about how all the passengers and crew are supposed to fit on the Sea Wyvern, as things are written in SWW. (I'm basing the following info from Stormwrack and the info we're given in SWW.)
A caravel like the Sea Wyvern can hold 30 people and has a watch complement of 7. Ideally a ship would have four watches with duty shifts of 6 hours each, but three watches of 8 hours each works as well so that's what I'm going with.
In my campaign we have four PC's, so that leaves room for 26 more people. One of the players is a captain, so I don't need Amella. (sp?) On a small ship like the SW, the captain can also act as pilot and there doesn't need to be a dedicated helmsman, rather one of the crew can do that. So I think the only absolutely neccessary officers are a first mate, a chief bos'un and a captain.
The first mate will be the captain PC's cohort, since the PC is going into Legendary Captain (from Stormwrack.) Two of the PC's are proficient sailors so I'm thinking they can be bos'uns for two of the watch shifts.
This leaves the NPC's. Rowyn doesn't really take up a bunk space, since she's a stowaway. I'm assuming Tavey doesn't either, since I'm sure he's happy to sleep on deck or even in the crow's nest. IIRC, that leaves five NPC's who take up a sleeping space.
I'm not quite sure if the listed neccessary watch complement includes officers, but I'm assuming it doesn't. So here is how the numbers break down, as I see it.
4 PC's (one of which is captain and the other two can act as bos'uns.)
1 first mate.
21 crew members.
5 NPC's.
1 NPC boatswain. (for the watch crew that the two NPC bos'uns are not on.)
That is 31 people right there, one more than the SW can hold, and they're also supposed to be taking colonists!
Am I missing something? The adventure seems to be putting too many people on the Sea Wyvern.
I think it breaks down like this:
15 people, of which both the PCs and the crew are part, including Avner's servants.
6 passengers (Urol, Skald, Lirith, Avner, Feres, and Amelia), 2 of whom (Amelia and Urol) can act as part of the crew if need be.
1 cabin boy, who sleeps in the crow's nest (Tavey).
I think it's only 22 people.
Creative Director
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Correct. The actual number of nameless colonists and passangers includes the number of PCs. The Sea Wyvern can actually accomidate 30 people, but some of them would have to sleep on cots or mats on the floor of the galley or elsewhere.
The adventure assumes 22 total:
Six named NPCs (Amella, Father Feres, Avner, Skald, Urol, Lirith, and Tavey)
The PCs
The colonists (total number = 15–the numer of PCs).
Six named NPCs (Amella, Father Feres, Avner, Skald, Urol, Lirith, and Tavey)
That's actually 7 named PCs, but your point is taken.
I'm with Cthuhlu (aren't we all) on the fact the number of crew just seems completely wrong. 7 Crew are the minimum to keep the ship moving without penalties and they can't be all working all the time so you need a minimum of twice that number for two watches, although three or four is more common. Personally I'm having 15 crew (which includes some of the PCs and some of the named NPCs), split into two watches each of seven and a Captain. During the coastal section the ship is going to do the traditional thing of laying anchor at night (to avoid accidents) and both watches will have easier shifts, or work together once in open sea they will split duties to sail 24 hours (probably with some assistance from settlers who will have time to learn the ropes by then). It effectively means the journey will take much longer, but I intend to give them some favourable winds earlier on to help reduce that.
Now I’m really confused.
15 colonists and PC’s. That leaves 15 additional people. With the named NPC’s we do not have near enough crew.
It almost seems like the adventure assumes that the 7 watch crew works around the clock, whereas it would be three watches of 7 people each.
I’m not trying to be difficult about this, but the number of people on the SW has to work out, and I don’t wanna drop any named NPC’s because there are such great opportunities for roleplaying.
I suggest you do what I'm doing Cthuhlu in that case. Two watches would be enough to cover the 12 hours of daylight sailing round the coast, and by the time they get to open sea enough of the settlers could be trained up to supplement the actual sailors to make more watches to cover 24 hour sailing.
I'm not sure how adding an extra month or two to the journey time might effect the later adventures though, assuming they leave Sasserine in Spring, what time of year might it be when they need to sail to Scuttlecove....
I guess that could work. If you're anchored at night you would probably just need one or two people on watch. The colonists could pick up a few ranks of Profession sailor to help supplement the crew.
I am curious what the official way to do it it is, though, since the way it's written it doesn't work.
When the rules say "seven crew members", is that assumed to include three shifts?
I've never been on a ship that wasn't nuclear-powered, so I really don't know how many active hands you need at a time to run the ship. But if you're basing your count on what the rules say (rather than personal knowledge), it could be that seven crewmemebers include three shifts.
I could imagine that it takes maybe 2-3 people to keep a caravel going once it starts with all hands beating to quarters for events that requires more than that.
Minimum complement for a caravel is 7. You start losing speed/manuverability once you get below that. You don't need double the complement to keep your boat going. If you meet the complement number, you get the standard overland movement rate. Nice & simple.
Break it down as such:
5 PCs
10 crew (including Avner's helpers)
1 captain (Amella)
1 cabin boy (Tavey)
5 passengers (Urol, Skald, Feres, Avner, Lirith)
There you go. 22 people.
So 7 crew is the total crew? 2-3 people to run the boat at any given time? That seems like way too few to me. Granted, I don't know a whole lot about boats, but it seems like that is too few crewmen. (Or crewpeople, to be PC about it.)
7 is the minimum for the boat to maintain it's speed (with normal winds) of 15ft/round, 1.5 mile per hour, less than that and it slows to a crawl. In combat (using Stormwrack) you really want 7 crew plus anyone that is fighting as 7 crew have to use standard actions each round to keep the boat moving.
My thoughts exactly, DMaple. You need 7 crew at the same time. And those 7 people have to have time when they're not working so they can sleep and just have rest time. I guess I'll just have the colonists and some of the named NPC's act as crew. Because there's no way to keep the total number of people on the boat at or under 30 as written.
You don't need 7 people at all times. For a caravel, you need 7 people minimum working regular shifts -- on some sort of rotation, perhaps, the specifics of which you don't need to worry about -- to get a certain speed out of the boat.
You don't need to worry about shifts, rotating fresh crew members in and out, lunch breaks, or standard actions. You have 7 guys as your crew? You get overland speed X. It really doesn't need to get any more complicated than that.
You don't need 7 people at all times. For a caravel, you need 7 people minimum working regular shifts -- on some sort of rotation, perhaps, the specifics of which you don't need to worry about -- to get a certain speed out of the boat.
You don't need to worry about shifts, rotating fresh crew members in and out, lunch breaks, or standard actions. You have 7 guys as your crew? You get overland speed X. It really doesn't need to get any more complicated than that.
I'm with office_ninja here. A caravel isn't a particularly large ship (see some pictures); since The Sea Wyvern doesn't need military precision in its maneuvers, I imagine 3-4 at a given time is probably fine -- one on the wheel, two or three working the ropes. (Certainly all hands would be called on deck if things got dangerous.)
You don't need 7 people at all times. For a caravel, you need 7 people minimum working regular shifts -- on some sort of rotation, perhaps, the specifics of which you don't need to worry about -- to get a certain speed out of the boat.
Without at least half the number of people equal to the watch a ship can't change speed and if it changes head it looses 10ft per round movement per heading change. At the start of the journey the ship is hugging the coast so making pretty frequent heading changes.
In combat you need the watch, plus a helmsman and a commander. If each of them don't take a standard action each turn otherwise you loose performance.
No Commander doing a standard action - then no changes in heading, speed or special actions, also you risk loosing the advantage.
No helmsman - no changes in heading.
Not equal to the watch - no changes in speed (other than losses due to changes in head).
Other naval source books have crew compliments anything between 20 and 50 for a three masted ship of that size (IE: 120 tons of cargo space). It's not like the ships have powered winches to lift the sails.
It's not like it's particularly accurate anyway as the Blue Nixie is twice the size as the Sea Wyvern but is the same type of ship according to the adventure, and so has the same crew and same cargo space.
So of course you can hand wave everything it really does depend on how detailed you want to go.
A caravel isn't a particularly large ship (see some pictures)
You know the Sea Wyvern is twice the size of most of those 120 tons, rather than 60 tons and the Blue Nixie is twice the size of the Sea Wyvern.
Although to be fair the Sea Wyvern is more like a TARDIS as it really is the same dimensions as a 60 ton caravels you've illustrated, but has twice the volume of cargo space. Note that cavarel don't have forcastles so maybe the forecastle of the Sea Wyvern is actually an extra dimensional space? Still the crews on a 60ft caravel for long voyages were around 15 to 20 (of course that included things like carpenters for repairs, a servant, cook, surgeon, etc.)
Compared with the Blue Nixie which is clearly a carrack from it's size (over 120ft) and forecastle.
And, if you still feel 7 is too few to man the Sea Wyvern, remember that you've only accounted for 22 of the possible 30 passengers and crew. Those extra 8 could be the difference on the voyage, especially when critters start plucking folks from the deck.
Agreed, I upped the crew to 15 which seems much close to the crew sizes of ships of that size. Still left me 15 slots to fill. Took the ship full of people, also reduce the hold size (no extra dimensional space on my ship thanks very much), mainly by reducing the food stocks, as why fill the hold with food which can spoil, when there are plenty of places to restock along the way.
Cruise Control? Portable holes? Ropetrick? Reduce person? Create food and water? Bags of Holding? Lots of options to save space. Hmmm what happens if I cast rope trick on a moving object such as in the hold of a ship? When I came out nine hours later do I have a lot of swimming in store?
Yes, I think Stormwrack is pretty clear the 7 is the number required to keep the ship going at any one time, not the total crew required for several watches.
It's not that I'm trying to make this too complicated, but that my player who will be the captain will want to know how many crew he needs, and who he has room for.
My original point--that the adventure doesn't leave enough space for the crew--still stands. But I'm sure something can be done about it.
My original point--that the adventure doesn't leave enough space for the crew--still stands.
Um... I don't see how. There's room for 22 people, and that's plenty of space for crew, passengers, and PCs. No one even has to sleep on the floor. 22 beds, 22 people. I don't see where the shortage occurs.
They are probably working 16 hours a day each, with 8 hours to sleep. Anything less gives them too much time to cause trouble in too confined a space. They probably rotate out the hard and easy jobs, and rotate sleeping. In an emergency, all hands are on deck and sleep is minimum.
When my dad was in the Navy (first crew of the Enterprise), he says he spent 8 hours a day on duty in the reactor room, 4 hours standing watch, 4 hours in class, and two usually non-consecutive 4 hour sleeping shifts. Any extra duties (including study time) came out of his sleep. And this was the (relatively) Modern Navy, not Captain Bligh.
While hugging the shore, the SW probably travels by day and anchors by night to avoid reefs and such, giving the sailors extra down-time. When in open-waters, any idle man is a wasted resource. A ship that small can't afford idle resources.
My original point--that the adventure doesn't leave enough space for the crew--still stands.Um... I don't see how. There's room for 22 people, and that's plenty of space for crew, passengers, and PCs. No one even has to sleep on the floor. 22 beds, 22 people. I don't see where the shortage occurs.
Your right office ninja. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. You don't need 7 people at all times to man a caravel. 2-3 to keep watch, when the captain needs to change course or evade pirate then it is "all hands on deck" At which case you need 7 to moneuver the caravel with out penalty. 7 the crew need is 7. 22 people in that small boat is cramp and tight, but such is life on the high seas.
I'm of the camp that thinks 7 for a caravel at all times is lenient on the part of the writers of Stormwrack. We used the wrack rules for the game certainly, but once you start reading naval novels (both the Horatio Hornblower and the Aubrey/Maturin series, for me) then you appreciate the difficulty of keeping a wind-powered ship running smoothly.
There are references to ships in those books (and the Aubrey/Maturin author pulled as muc has he could directly from english naval logs for his writing) to ships that work with less tha na dozen crew, but those were always merchants and renowned for their complete inability to maneuver, go fast, or survive in inclement weather unless they could just run in front of the storm.
Imagine that you are in moderate winds for two days, with gusts up to 30mph (enough to break a topmast or tear a sail). If you used the 7total crew model where you pipe all hands for changing direction, etc., your crew would be working 2days straight. They'd be reefing sails, adjusting masts, taking masts out and putting them in, repairing minor damage... it's staggering the amount of tiny tasks neccessary for one of those ships. And weather like that is not uncommon (though you could rule that the seas between Sasserine and IoD are more calm, certainly).
My party maxed out the Wyvern's crew capacity with a crew made up of Amella's old smuggling contacts. They doubled up bunks, with two crew using the same bunk- when one was working, the other slept in his bunk. They were a little obsessive about figuring out who did what when, and where they slept. Especially when Rowyn began her fun. It was nice.
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I'm of the camp that thinks 7 for a caravel at all times is lenient on the part of the writers of Stormwrack. We used the wrack rules for the game certainly, but once you start reading naval novels (both the Horatio Hornblower and the Aubrey/Maturin series, for me) then you appreciate the difficulty of keeping a wind-powered ship running smoothly.
There are references to ships in those books (and the Aubrey/Maturin author pulled as muc has he could directly from english naval logs for his writing) to ships that work with less tha na dozen crew, but those were always merchants and renowned for their complete inability to maneuver, go fast, or survive in inclement weather unless they could just run in front of the storm.
Also, remember that the ships of Nelson's era were orders of magnitude more complex than the pre- to early-Renaissance vessels used in D&D. Secondly, much of the crew required (about one man per two tons displacement) on those men-o-war were for manning the guns, damage control and making rapid maneuvers in combat, which merchants just didn't have to do.
Up until very recently, ships (especially warships) stood watch and watch, or what we today call Port and Starboard, i.e. two watch sections. Sometimes officers were in more sections, but not always. I've stood Port and Starboard; it's not fun; but you can easily keep it up for a few weeks. Since medieval and Renaissance ships didn't usually pull long stretches underway at a time (SWW is pretty realistic in this respect), these watch rotations wouldn't have been too grueling.
In short, I'll buy 7 as the minimum crew, with 2-3 on watch at any one time and all seven for combat, emergencies and restricted maneuvering details.
Tom
Alright, I think I already posted to this effect elsewhere, but here it is:
Sailing ships are quite complicated, but once the rigging is set, you don't need very many people on watch unless the wind shifts or you want to change course. On a caravel, you can get by with 2 people on watch pretty easily--a helmsman and a lookout, who is in the crowsnest or on the bow, depending on light and weather conditions. If you need to maneuver the ship, you call out the other five crew members and perform the necessary maneuvers. Since a caravel typically only has one square-rigged mast, it's not as difficult to reset the sails as most larger square-riggers. So seven is actually quite reasonable, but leaves you little room for casualties, which are inevitable on a long voyage.
The typical setup on a sailing ship is to divide the crew into two watches. If the watches are large enough, the on deck watch can do all the maneuvers you need except in battle or other extreme conditions. When the ship is not maneuvering, the on deck watch busies itself with tasks set by the mate on watch or the bosun--splicing lines, scrubbing the decks, carpentry, etc. The off watch rests. They typically alternate in 4 hour shifts, but sometimes 2 or 6 hour watches were also used.
Most of the crew members don't need to have that much skill. A basic orientation, and you know how to do basic tasks like reef a sail, tie off a line, haul up the anchor chain, and what not. Basically most of the sailors are slightly skilled laborers. You need at least one, preferably two or three skilled sailors on each watch, though, to show the others what to do, keep them from making mistakes, and keep them in line. In a pinch, if you run out of experienced sailors, your passengers can be pressed into service as crew members, although someone like Avner Meravanchi would certainly object to such dirty, dangerous work.
As far as berthing space on the ship--the beds drawn in on the published maps are kind of unrealistic. On a caravel, the captain has his own bed, and maybe two or three others--the officers and/or distinguished passengers. (Avner will certainly claim a bunk and probably try to run the captain out of her cabin). Everyone else sleeps on hammocks suspended from the overhead or mats laid out on the floor or in whatever comfortable niche the sailors/passengers can find--atop cargo in the hold or whatever. For a short voyage you could carry more than thirty people on a caravel, but it would be tight, you'd run out of food and water quickly, and sanitary conditions would be worse than usual. If a caravel were outfitted as a slave ship, you could carry about two slaves per 5 ft square of hold space, but of course sanitation, food, and water would be horribly inadequate and half the slaves would die during a voyage of a month or so.
So, in fact, the published adventure (and Stormwrack) are fairly realistic. Hope this helps the OP and others who are puzzled by this problem.
I'm of the camp that thinks 7 for a caravel at all times is lenient on the part of the writers of Stormwrack. We used the wrack rules for the game certainly, but once you start reading naval novels (both the Horatio Hornblower and the Aubrey/Maturin series, for me) then you appreciate the difficulty of keeping a wind-powered ship running smoothly.
There are references to ships in those books (and the Aubrey/Maturin author pulled as muc has he could directly from english naval logs for his writing) to ships that work with less tha na dozen crew, but those were always merchants and renowned for their complete inability to maneuver, go fast, or survive in inclement weather unless they could just run in front of the storm.
Imagine that you are in moderate winds for two days, with gusts up to 30mph (enough to break a topmast or tear a sail). If you used the 7total crew model where you pipe all hands for changing direction, etc., your crew would be working 2days straight. They'd be reefing sails, adjusting masts, taking masts out and putting them in, repairing minor damage... it's staggering the amount of tiny tasks neccessary for one of those ships. And weather like that is not uncommon (though you could rule that the seas between Sasserine and IoD are more calm, certainly).
My party maxed out the Wyvern's crew capacity with a crew made up of Amella's old smuggling contacts. They doubled up bunks, with two crew using the same bunk- when one was working, the other slept in his bunk. They were a little obsessive about figuring out who did what when, and where they slept. Especially when Rowyn began her fun. It was nice.
It certainly makes sense to beef up the crew, and put commoner-type colonists to work as well, when needed. However, keep in mind that a lot of the Royal Navy literature is written about large (over 100' long) square-rigger vessels (frigates and ships of the line had 3-4 masts with at least 4 square-rigged sails per mast, plus spritsails, staysails, and such). These ships are tasked with quick maneuvering in order to bring broadsides of cannon to bear at just the right time. The Royal Navy had to resort to press gangs to fill out their crews, whereas merchants usually have to pay their crews (although it's certainly possible to use underhanded means to fill out the complement--crimping and all that).
The purpose of the Sea Wyvern's voyage is to bring supplies and colonists to Farshore, not to engage the enemy in battle. You certainly want to be prepared for contingencies, but you don't need to be overstaffed. A crew of 15 should be more than sufficient to perform the maneuvers the ship needs to do, and as I explained above, a caravel doesn't have nearly the number of sails and yards and spars and such as the larger ships you read about in O'Brien and Forester novels. Probably a mainsail, a main-top, possibly a mainroyal, plus a foresail and a mizzen sail (both of which are lateen rigged and thus easier to work with). In light winds, you might put up a couple of staysails, but that's about it.
If you read about guys like Columbus and Magellan, they were sailing caravels. IIRC, Magellan's lieutenant Del Cano made it back to Spain with a crew of 7 who had survived the voyage.
Keep in mind also that it would be typical to pick up more sailors in every port to replace any casualties. If PCs are unscrupulous, they might even kidnap native Olman tribesmen along the Amedio coast or the nearby islands, or force surrendered crew from the Scarlet Brotherhood ship into service.
For those above, who explained the difference between the crew requirements for a 19th century ship o the line and a 15 century merchant caravel...,
Thank You.
<SNIP>
Also, remember that the ships of Nelson's era were orders of magnitude more complex than the pre- to early-Renaissance vessels used in D&D. Secondly, much of the crew required (about one man per two tons displacement) on those men-o-war were for manning the guns, damage control and making rapid maneuvers in combat, which merchants just didn't have to do.Up until very recently, ships (especially warships) stood watch and watch, or what we today call Port and Starboard, i.e. two watch sections. Sometimes officers were in more sections, but not always. I've stood Port and Starboard; it's not fun; but you can easily keep it up for a few weeks. Since medieval and Renaissance ships didn't usually pull long stretches underway at a time (SWW is pretty realistic in this respect), these watch rotations wouldn't have been too grueling.
In short, I'll buy 7 as the minimum crew, with 2-3 on watch at any one time and all seven for combat, emergencies and restricted maneuvering details.
Tom
As for realistic rules of ships, crews, maritime travel and maneuvering the "Stormwrack" rules actually SXXX in a major way, at leasst from my point of view, based on 30+ years of active sailing, a dtermined interst in naval hostoy and some first-hand experience on larger (cog-sized, app 67' length) sailing-vessels.
But then they are simpliefied on purpose, for ease of play, and the mostly non-nautical folks playing DnD.A (historic, latin-rigged) caravel (which has the size of the "Sea Wyvern", but a different system of sails/beams to propel the ship, would require about half a dozen men to handle at all times (steeringm shifing sails etc. ), hence at least twice that number for any extended travels. Historic crews numbered vene more, considering inevitable losses from scurvy, sicknss, accidents and general circumstances.
The largish crews of Napoleonic Man-o-Wars (as those of the Hornblower and Aubrey/Maturin books ) stem both from the facts that each gun (!) needed a crew of four or more to work in combat, plus any crew for sailing the ship in combat ! Not really a factor in DnD type settings, at least usually.
The square-rigged "Sea Wyvern" caravel (which is about as historically correct as a Disney Theme Park feature, even when comparing to the later age "caravel redonda" ) would need, in my approximiation about a dozen crew to sail/maneuvre, due to the power required to move the large square rigged sails. Of course, for sheer hauling and strength based labour, the passengers could be employed, but not for anything requiring some seamanship or detailed knowledge. That is - in reality.
Perhaps check here for some further information :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravel
If the rules say "7", run with it, in the end it is only a matter if your players care for the realism or not.
In our STAP, we never encountered much of the debate since the group includes some sailing-buffs, and they hired crew by their own estimates with a sensible margin of safety, especially as they intended to take the "Leadership"-feat later on and consider these recruits. Proved worthwhil, as some crew got eaten/killed by the variou encounters, too.
And as for "sleeping space". For one,it is historically accurate to assume crew sleping on deck in tropical conditions - far more comfy than being stuck in the hol or lower deck.
They would also sleep alternately, possibly sharing cots/hammocks. And of course, one can place hammocks over and under each other (or even in three layers if feeling mean), to enhance crew capacity and space.
Hopes this rambling helped some =)
Said much about his experience in sailing
Ahhhh snap!! Me thinks me has been schooled.
maybe?
The largish crews of Napoleonic Man-o-Wars (as those of the Hornblower and Aubrey/Maturin books ) stem both from the facts that each gun (!) needed a crew of four or more to work in combat, plus any crew for sailing the ship in combat ! Not really a factor in DnD type settings, at least usually.
The square-rigged "Sea Wyvern" caravel (which is about as historically correct as a Disney Theme Park feature, even when comparing to the later age "caravel redonda" ) would need, in my approximiation about a dozen crew to sail/maneuvre, due to the power required to move the large square rigged sails. Of course, for sheer hauling and strength based labour, the passengers could be employed, but not for anything requiring some seamanship or detailed knowledge. That is - in reality.
I tried to focus on the non-military vessels from the books for precisely the reason of the guns/crews (though, it's still a little inacurrate to say that it's because of the guns that the extra crew was needed- that makes it sound like there are a bunch idle gunners sitting around waiting for combat and as far as I can tell, the only blokes not pulling double duty were the marines)
ANYway, uzagi makes my points. Saying that just a few are needed until maneuvers need to be done overlooks the fact that the wind is the wind and the sea, the sea, and they are both constantly changing.
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Not wishing to diverge too much, but what about those crewmembers who man the SW from ToD on? With the passengers off, I'd figure a dozen or so crew so that the PCs don't spend all their time pounding oakum of holystoning the decks.
By the time the SW sails Into the Maw, wouldn't these sailors be some pretty salty dogs themselves? Heck, just to survive being pierside in Scuttlecove you'd pick up a few levels. Makes the Argonauts look like tour boat operators.
And think of the sea stories they'll tell. "Sure, this storm's rough, kid, but there was this one time when I sailed with these four crazy adventurers right into the Abyss itself, I tell ya! Why, just the fish there...."
I figure I'm going to require an even dozen crewmembers. They will man the ship in 3 watches, so at all times the ship will have 4 crew on active duty, 4 on reserve and 4 sleeping.
Four active duty crew breaks down as one on the helm, one in the crow's nest and two making minor adjustments.
Four reserve duty crew members will be called on deck to execute any change of direction, raising/lowering sails or other major maneuvers. i.e. during these times there wil be a helmsman, a man in the crow's nest and 6 crew on the rigging. At other times, reserve duty crewmembers will be undertaking minor ship maintenance or left to their own activities.
Four sleeping crewmembers will only be called on deck during storms or battles. i.e. during these times there will be a helmsman, man in the crow's nest and 10 on the rigging.