As my very first 3.5 campaign draws to a close in a few months (characters are now 16th level and the game prep and combat has slowed down to the point of virtual unfun) I'm plotting my next campaign. I won't actually DM my next campaign for at least a year, as I'm handing off the DMing reigns to a friend who's going to run Ptolus and our other game is going to switch to Age of Worms when it has run its course.
Back on topic--I want to run my next campaign story heavy and magic items lite. Very lite....very lite....I anticpate the PCs maybe having one or two magic items between them by 7th level kind of stuff.
Is there a quick and dirty way to adjust CRs for NPCs/Monsters who are stripped of almost all magic? Any advice on converting published adventures to an almost non-existent magic item setting?
Why no magic? I'm tired of the math. I'm tired of having to deck out NPCs like Christmas trees just to challenge the PCs. I'm tired of the PCs walking into town with 43 suits of +2 studded leather they took off the dungeon residents, stuffed into a portable hole. All the frickin' calculations....let's just play!!!!
Last game we lost almost 3 hours of game time to "shopping, selling and converting magic items." I could say that they can't do any converting, but I'm so sick and tired of the magic item logistics, I just don't give a sh*t.
I haven't posted much lately due to work constraints, but I'd sure love some feedback from you guys.
PS: I have Iron Heroes and while I like it, my players aren't ready for it yet and the token system annoys me, so that option is out, although I might stripmine it for some features such as the armor system.
Possibly increase the rate of feat acquisition and ability score increase - give a feat at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. and an ability score increase at 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc.
Use skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel and action points from Unearthed Arcana.
Use character retraining from the PH II so the players can optimize what they've got.
Do away with the 'weak' base classes - Use the warlock and artificer in place of sorcerers and wizards. Encourage party-buff types such as the bard and the marshal, and other characters with lots of staying power.
Include monstrous cohorts - perhaps the characters befriend a powerful dragon or other monster and it grants them a certain number of "call beads", which function as conjuration (calling) spells - sort of a final fantasy-esque system.
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Back on topic--I want to run my next campaign story heavy and magic items lite. Very lite....very lite....I anticpate the PCs maybe having one or two magic items between them by 7th level kind of stuff.
I really like the look of A Game of Thrones for a low-magic setting. You might want to take a look.
(I think you'd be unsatisfied to use all the current classes w/o magic items. Casters would be even more dominant than currently. I doubt that is new information, but thought it should be mentioned for anyone else with less experience who might be reading this.)
Is there a quick and dirty way to adjust CRs for NPCs/Monsters who are stripped of almost all magic?
Not really; there's too much variation on how much a given monster/NPC depends on magic or requires magic to get past its defenses. For instance, DR X/magic is a minor boost to monsters above about CR 3 in a typical campaign, but it would be very important in a low magic campaign. OTOH, an Ogre would be about as difficult an opponent in a low-magic campaign as it would be in a typical campaign. I'm afraid you're in for quite a bit of guessing.
As a note, I've been reading Rich Burlew's campaign design notes (http://www.giantitp.com/Gaming.html, under The World). I haven't finished the series of articles, but did get to where he suggests using d20 Modern rather than D&D as a base system. I suspect this might have some utility in a campaign such as you describe. At any rate, the required house rules might be shorter.
HTH
I agree that it'd be a more straight-forward solution for you to use a different game rather that massively reshaping d&d. You said that your players 'aren't ready' for Iron Heroes; how so?
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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My ongoing campaign is low magic, so I hope you find some of the rules I use to be useful.
First, some background. My game is very horror-based, with undead and lycanthropes being very common, along with demons and devils. As such, I made several changes to allow low magic PCs to deal with these menaces.
-Silver weapons act the same way as magic weapons for purposes of getting past Damage Reduction.
-I replace +1 and +2 weapons with Silver Masterwork Weapons for purposes of monster treasure/armament.
-For non-weapon magic items, each creature has a maximum number of these based on their HD. Basically, they can be equipped with a maximum of one magic item for every 3 HD they have.
-Magic weapons are EXTREMELY rare, and when found, are usually named, legendary weapons with a +3 equivalent or above.
-PCs can not purchase any magic items other than Scrolls and Potions, and they cost double the listed price in the DMG.
-Wizards must find spellbooks to increase their spell access. They don't just get to pick a new spell when they level up. I have my Wizard PCs provide me with a list of spells they want as they level up, and I populate their "found" spellbooks with some of these spells. To accomodate the fact that spells won't be found as often, I also allow them to start out with more spells in their spellbooks than the PH suggests (Starting Spellbook = all 0-level, 6 1-level, 4 2-level, and 2 3-level). I rationalize this by assuming that even if they can't cast all the spells in their book yet, the spells were given to the PC by their "Master" to provide them spells to use as they grow in power.
-Sorcerors can only pick spells they've actually seen cast, whether by a companion, an NPC, or an enemy. Their knowledge of the spell must come first hand.
-Spell Resistance Ratings are reduced by a quarter. Magic is rare, so it's harder to resist.
Generally, this system works well for us. If something outside of these guidelines comes up during the game, I address it on a case by case basis.
Since I don't usually use published adventures, I just create my adventures with these guidelines in mind, and it makes for a pretty good experience. When I do use a published adventure, it usually takes me about an hour to make adjustments to treasure, creatures, and the other encounters.
I know this system isn't perfect, but I hope it helps you a bit!
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You could be in for some interesting and difficult challenges especially at higher levels. A human in full plate with a heavy shield will have at most a 21 AC. There really isn't much of a way to change this without magic. Ultimately, people are going to end up getting hit -- a lot -- unless you have some way of balancing AC with the to hit progression. And with little to no way to heal quickly. (A 6th level fighter with at least a 14 in the primary to hit stat with weapon focus and a masterworked weapon has a +10 to hit -- meaning he will only miss AC 21 50% of the time. 14 is a pretty low stat and that doesn't include flanking or magic spells.) Hit points could become a lot more important.
The rest of magic could be overlooked or ignored to a large degree. But the AC factor could become an issue with "normal" humanoids at higher levels.
Have you thought about how magic spells would affect things. Things like shield of faith and greater magic weapon could end up going a long way towards upsetting a "balance".
If I were to do something like this, I would probably not allow wizard, sorcerer, cleric or druid classes (or things similar) -- basically any 9th spell level progression class. I would probably limit spellcasting to bards (maybe) and probably adepts, paladins and rangers. I also don't know what I would do about the monk -- I probably wouldn't allow it, as I feel that a lot of the monk abilities seem to assume a magic item progression of most of the other characters. I would decrease or eliminate the DR/Magic of most/all creatures and I would probably need to decrease the natural armor of many higher CR creatures.
If you eliminate magic items and allow spell casting, spell casting becomes incredibly important. If you don't allow spell casting or magic items, class progression can quickly make things like AC or save DCs nearly obsolete. (For that matter, without spells, the Reflex save will probably be used far less and Will saves less than Reflex.)
Sorry, I'm rambling. Hope that some of my ramblings help.
Alchemy is your friend.
Andy Collins ran a low magic home campaign, called Umber, which might work well as a low magic template.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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You could be in for some interesting and difficult challenges especially at higher levels. A human in full plate with a heavy shield will have at most a 21 AC. There really isn't much of a way to change this without magic. Ultimately, people are going to end up getting hit -- a lot -- unless you have some way of balancing AC with the to hit progression. And with little to no way to heal quickly. (A 6th level fighter with at least a 14 in the primary to hit stat with weapon focus and a masterworked weapon has a +10 to hit -- meaning he will only miss AC 21 50% of the time. 14 is a pretty low stat and that doesn't include flanking or magic spells.) Hit points could become a lot more important.
The rest of magic could be overlooked or ignored to a large degree. But the AC factor could become an issue with "normal" humanoids at higher levels.
Have you thought about how magic spells would affect things. Things like shield of faith and greater magic weapon could end up going a long way towards upsetting a "balance".
You're not rambling at all. No worries!
Generally, we end each campaign once the characters reach 12th level, so a lot of the high level spells rarely come into play. As for the AC issue, it's very important to place the "right" kind of magical treasure in encounters (such as magical armor). Also, spells that boost AC and Attack Bonuses become extremely important for Clerics/Mages as the campaign progresses, so a lot of spell slots that are occupied by mass damage spells in a regular campaign are taken up by these boost spells instead.
Like I said, it's not a perfect system, but works well for me and my players. It does tend to make the monsters a little more frightening, and makes the PCs hesitate before rushing in to combat. We do a LOT of parleying. ; )
Currently, I'm running the STAP set in Greyhawk with all rules wide open regarding magic, just to see how crazy my players get. So far, it's been pretty interesting...
I'm reading your responses with great interest, everyone. Thank you all so much. Like I said in my original post, I have Iron Heroes, but I don't care much for the token system. I playtested it and it wasn't much fun.
I do have the Game of Thrones RPG, but I haven't read it yet, as I'm having a hard time working my way through the books. I will check it out.
I appreciate all the good advice so far. Lots of stuff to get my brain kickstarted.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm reading your responses with great interest, everyone. Thank you all so much. Like I said in my original post, I have Iron Heroes, but I don't care much for the token system. I playtested it and it wasn't much fun.
Damnit, I missed the P.S. Sorry F2K. If you wouldn't mind though, I'd really like to hear your impressions regarding Iron Heroes at some point. I am constantly recommending it for those looking for low magic systems due to its pedgree, but do not actually own a copy myself. I'd really like to hear how it plays.
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The "Midnight" campaign setting?
Magic isn't barred, but its usability is seriously limited. (the general plot: evil has won, dwarves, elves, and humans are chased by the dark hordes, there is only one god left providing divine spells [the evil one], and arcane magic can be easily identified).
Some people recommend "Iron Kingdoms", too. It adds some steampunk atmosphere - not to everyone's liking.
I don't reommend to change the core rules, too. As you mentioned in your posting, twisting a major component of the rules (magic) severely influences the balance of the whole rule system...
So a different d20 rule approach might be the best solution...
Greetings,
Günther
P.S.
My group is very hesitant about magic, too. My approach was to be less generous with magic items. The group is oversized (usually 6 players), so the lack of magical items is somewhat compensated. Nevertheless I found out that CRs can be quite misleading sometimes...
The Conan RPG looks really cool... if yer into that sorta thing
I'll support the Midnight campaign setting suggestion. I have often wanted to run it, but as my group tends to play evil characters, placing them in a setting where evil has already succeeded somehow doesn't sound wise...
In all, I think that the integral role magic plays in D&D is hard to remove, and you should try to seek a different setting.
As far as offsetting bonuses from magic items, the Wheel of Time roleplaying game book uses a defense stat that increases by level depending on the class; it offers a growing armor class bonus to keep up with what would otherwise be magical assistance. Perhaps there is another supplement out there with these rules, but this is where I first encountered them. The bonuses vary: fighter and rogue classes progress pretty steadily, while spellcaster classes go a bit more slowly. Perhaps you could tie that bonus to Base Attack in some way; maybe half the base attack value per level to reflect increased battlefield competence?
I also want to run a low magic campaign at some point (namely Bas-Lag from China Mieville and Dragon 352) and retooling a magic class is one of my major revisions. Picking up on suggestions from another board (I believe it was James Sutter that said this) but he suggested taking out the really overtly powerful spells from the wizard/sorcerer spell list like fireball, adding in some cleric and druid spells for healing and such and then halving spell progression. Then, giving them skills as an expert. It may be a bit weaker than average, but it's a low magic setting, after all. I'm going to tinker with it on my own when I have time.
Sebastian,
Here's an old thread that discussed Iron Heroes. I hadn't really tried out the token system yet at that point and admittedly I haven't given it a fair shake yet, but first impressions are hard to change. The stunts are cool, but the token system for "building up points" to do certain stunts is just weird and I don't care for it.
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What you also could do is to play with the d20 Modern ruleset. The mechanics are more or less the same as standard D&D, but the spellcasting (if any - you need a supplement to get any magic at all, and the spells are pitiful compared to D&D). Also, as the rules are written with this in mind, you won't need to compensate or change CRs and that sort of thing.
The one thing that will cause you some problems is exotic or powerful monsters - there aren't all that many of 'em in the Modern system, as it is geared for more humanoid vs. humanoid action.
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This is what I've garnered from looking at R.E. Howard's Conan stuff....
A "monster" becomes a rare, once or twice an adventure occurrence. That's not to say there aren't lions and tigers and bears; there just aren't that many demons and ogres and giants and dragons about.
Ergo, most of the foes are human. The worst enemies one meets inevitably are.
Wizards are rare, and powerful, and generally evil. Farting around with magic is a fool's way to a quick death or worse fate. Magic items are even moreso, and what magic items there are...quick death/worse fate. Conan doesn't have a magic sword, except (I think) in a Marvel Comic or two; I'm not sure.
Clerics as "divine combat medics" are virtually unknown.
It essentially looks like everybody is a fighter or a rogue of some sort.
F2K,
First, I would just like to say that I feel your pain. :-) My SCAP campaign is now striding past 10th level and already the familiar drag of high level prep and play is setting in. As I have mentioned before in other posts, I use a variety of preparation tricks to aid me as a GM. However, 3.5 does seem to demand an inordinate amount of time for a GM to maintain a decently prepared game that can be run smoothly when the players all sit down at the table.
So, while I think it would be possible to do a low magic variant of 3.5, I think the amount of work required to set it up and have it run decently would be counter productive to addressing the concern of preparation time. By that I mean I think you would trading out the number crunching you do now for regular high level 3.5 preparation, for time spent converting to the variant you came up with. That is not to say that the other suggestions thus far have been without merit. In fact I saw several ideas that I might try in some of the one shots my group and I occasionally do to try new systems and settings. :-)
That said if you truly desire to stay with 3.5, then Delveg’s suggestion to look at Umber is a solid one. My friends and I took that variant, made some of our own tweaks, and ran with it for a pseudo-dark ages game set on earth. While the experience was fun, by 10th level or so the problem with limited healing and long recovery times had us looking into Reserve Points as found in the Unearthed Arcana supplement just to keep adventure momentum for the game. Overall, the Umber variant was decent for the lower levels, but seemed strained at the higher ones. Of course, your mileage may vary as they say. :-)
As for my suggestion, I recommend looking at some other systems to see if they can deliver what you are after. My recommendations are as follows:
1) Savage Worlds. This is currently my number one system of choice. Tremendously intuitive and very GM friendly. You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Worlds. At the bottom of the page is a link to the free test drive version. Free adventures with pregenerated characters are also available at the home site: http://peginc.com/. The game offers several unique settings, including some very cool upcoming products that cover a wide range of genres. In addition, several PDF tool kits are available that help expand the use of the system for a variety of genres such as fantasy, sci-fi, horror, and pulp. I highly recommend you give it a look and try it out.
2) True20: This is another great product that is very GM friendly. You can read more about it here: http://true20.com/about.php and it has links to download a free test introductory version and an adventure. I have used it for a couple of different games, both fantasy and modern, with solid success. The main rule book along with the Worlds of Adventure supplement have some neat settings that a GM can use to get a unique game up and running in a small amount of time. Finally, to use it for a fantasy game, you have the advantage in that it is OGL based so converting adventures should be fairly straightforward. Especially with True20’s excellent Bestiary supplement which converts all of the OGL monsters into True20 terms.
3) GURPS 4E. This is a slightly more complex game system in that it strives for a fairly high level of “realism” in its mechanics. However, it has a fast learning curve and it is quite customizable. I have run several games of differing genres with great success under it and its predecessor GURPS 3E. You can read more about it here: http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/ and GURPS Lite is free for download at: http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/.
Finally, as an aside, I just wanted to say that I still follow yours and your player’s campaign write ups and I must say that it is apparent you run an excellent game. So while high-level play can be discouraging and frustrating, your efforts are worthwhile for the caliber of game you offer and provide. Keep up the good work and take pride in what you and your players have created. Also, maybe talk with your players about the issues you are having with the magic item trading. Maybe they have some suggestions on how to streamline that process or handle it off screen so as to maximize playing time.
Anyway, I hope that the above game systems may be of some use and good luck with whatever route you do decide on. If you have any questions concerning the suggestions after looking them over, I would be pleased to be of assistance. :-)
Good Gaming,
Mark
Thanks a lot for the compliments on my campaign, Mark....and thanks to everyone and Mark for the feedback and ideas. I have a lot DM downtime coming up, so I'll be researching a lot of stuff using your suggestions as a guide to come up with something workable.