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When this encounter starts we are in KOTR and they had already gone through the carrion crawler pit. They decided they were going to prep and lure out Brazzemal and Vermirox in a fight. (Hopefully not at the same time). So they started with Brazzemal they kept taunting him and throwing minor spells at him until he chased them. Both clerics cast fly and protection from energy (fire) as Brazzemal drew near. Brazzemal flew off for a few seconds and then came back all prepard for battle followed by a roar(To alert other dragons). Brazzemal breathed on them then the others filed through there attacks. Then the cleric spots Vermirox on his way and decides to cast destruction on Brazzemal. Fort save and he rolls a 1. I was visibly saddened. But then it gets worse Vermirox sees this and tries to veer away. The other cleric goes, he decides that he'll go with destruction as well since it seemed to work the last dragon. Vermirox rolls a 1 on his fort save. Now I am visibly shocked. GRRRR.
The whole experience has left me bitter but I'll get them back in the next encounter for sure.
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The adage "DM's can curve dice rolls whenever necessary" comes to mind with this. One lucky destruction spell, score one for the PCs. Two lucky destruction spells, pretty anticlimactic. DMs use a screen for a reason, usually to keep the bad guys from wiping out the PCs, but occasionally, and I stress occasionally, to keep the excitement going you'll have to keep your critters going a little longer. Does this seem unfair? Your LN monk would say so, but your CG bard would be wanting the drama/tension of the battle to go a little longer. In your mind, dock the dragon some AC value (those sickening "natural AC" bonuses) to make up for the "curved dice roll". The players shouldn't be any wiser, they still get a dramatic fight, and you're not left feeling bitter.
Destruction allows Spell Resistance, and while I don't have "Kings of the Rift" in front of me, I'm fairly certain both dragons have it. So the dragons failed both the SR check and the saving throw? I wonder was the statistical odds of that are?
Ouch!
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Yes they did overcome the spell resistance ainly cause of their spell pentration feats. And not to mention they're 18th level at this point with the dragons having a Sr in the latre 20's early thirties. It wasn't too hard to overcome that roll. Next time I think I'll fudge the rolls (Cause I do have a screen).
It reminds me of the occasional "Nat-One" on massive damage saves. I still roll them for each incident where a single blow/spell deals 50+ damage, and make my players do likewise. The only instance we ran into where the nat one caused a swift end was with the Overgod in PoR. Still, if the players are vulnerable to it, why not the appropriate baddies?
On that note, I don't think it was unfair for Brazzemal and Vermirox to get the shortest end of fate's stick. On the other hand, I'm surprised Brazzemal took the bait. I'm learning--with respect to KotR--that the players have a huge array of options to choose from when addressing Kongen-Thulnir at large; and that it's nigh-impossible to pigeon-hole them into following one set route to the end here.
Still, if you want to keep that last encounter in the phylactery vault intact, I recommend introducing a surrogate "commander" in Brazzemal's place. Maybe a unique black dragon, or white even. Better still, browse through the Draconomicon for an appropriate CR dragon, or make one with templates.
IMO, potentially screwing the PCs over in the future for using sound tactics and getting really, really lucky rolls never sounds like a good idea to me. Besides, what goes around, comes around (especially in a system that has a automatic 5% failure rate no matter how powerful that person is).
I definately wouldn't take something that is suppose to be in their arsenal away from them, nor punish them for having the dice fall on their side this time. I'm sure for every time we can think of that the dice favored the players, we can think of a time when they should have been able to do something easily and they just couldn't get the d20 to agree.
When it comes to fudging dice rolls, if you are talking about a character you want to keep around as a villain long term, I can understand loosing an NPC to a bad dice roll, but I wouldn't take their victory away from them. Just think of some way that an NPC could come back after that particular defeat. I know Brazzemal isn't specifically drawn up as a recurring villain, but, for example, if you wanted to use him again, the ghostly dragon template from the Draconomicon would still keep him in play.
And if you keep having dice issues, don't forget the Chi Square test in the Dragon Compendium Volume One, heh heh.
As far as empathizing, I was part of an encounter one time where only my character (a ranger), and a wizard that was nearly dead and almost out of spells were left to fight against a blue dragon, and the dice smiled on us, paralysed the dragon, and allowed us to finish it off, stabilize one party member, and "collect" the other one for ressurection. I didn't take the rolls for granted and still respected the fact that the dragon should have had us for a light lunch.
this very problem is the reason i prefer to use the "bell curve variant" from Unearthed Arcana, which replaces the d20 with 3d6. with this roll, brazzemal only fails his fort save .1% of the time, instead of 5%, but it's still possible.
this system, which places much greater value on the bonuses than the dice roll, allows the PCs to almost always succeed at the stuff they SHOULD almost always succeed at and makes things that are slightly above the standard pretty challenging. we've been using it since we started AoW and just finished KotR, and i think it's worked pretty well. my only complaint with the system is the sheer number of dice rolled by the two-weapon-wielding fighter with haste cast on him.
Creative Director
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Although it might seem anticlimactic to have both dragons get nuked by these spells... I bet this encounter lives on in the memories of your players for a long, long time. Which I would count as a success if I were the DM, to be honest.
There's nothing wrong with the PCs being high level, nor is there anything wrong with a sudden wash of crazy luck making an encounter like this a sudden and unexpected pushover. After all, the PCs are in every fight in the campaign. If something crazy like this is going to happen to anyone, it'll be them.
The next to big-time dragon villains are immune to destruction spells anyway, so you won't have to worry too much about a repeat.
IMO, potentially screwing the PCs over in the future for using sound tactics and getting really, really lucky rolls never sounds like a good idea to me. Besides, what goes around, comes around (especially in a system that has a automatic 5% failure rate no matter how powerful that person is).
I'm with you here. If the monsters get that unlucky - well then they die. Also what is this strange concept of using the screen to keep players alive? Why in the world would I want to do an odd thing like that? I mark my DM screen with little skull sticker every time I manage to get one of the little vermints.
When this encounter starts we are in KOTR and they had already gone through the carrion crawler pit. They decided they were going to prep and lure out Brazzemal and Vermirox in a fight. (Hopefully not at the same time). So they started with Brazzemal they kept taunting him and throwing minor spells at him until he chased them. Both clerics cast fly and protection from energy (fire) as Brazzemal drew near. Brazzemal flew off for a few seconds and then came back all prepard for battle followed by a roar(To alert other dragons). Brazzemal breathed on them then the others filed through there attacks. Then the cleric spots Vermirox on his way and decides to cast destruction on Brazzemal. Fort save and he rolls a 1. I was visibly saddened. But then it gets worse Vermirox sees this and tries to veer away. The other cleric goes, he decides that he'll go with destruction as well since it seemed to work the last dragon. Vermirox rolls a 1 on his fort save. Now I am visibly shocked. GRRRR.
The whole experience has left me bitter but I'll get them back in the next encounter for sure.
The exact same thing happened to me in SCAP. Cleric cast heal, touched the dracolich, beat SR, I roll a one on the save and poof dead! I to could have fuged the roll behind the screen, but why! To this day the party still talks about it.
[ I mark my DM screen with little skull sticker every time I manage to get one of the little vermints.
I actually think I will try this in my next campaign, just to screw with the PC's. Do they let you do that in professional dnd or only collegiate.
Yes, don't spoil the player's fun.
I remember once in the 2e I made a knight, and he rolled 3 successive "1s"!!! It was funny because I will ALWAYS remember that incident! My character dropped his sword, and falled on some mud and eventually started going superman on the mud on the city street (I was also trying to chase the bad guys)...everybody was laughing and i really enjoyed that!
So a couple of unlucky rolls from your dragons will certainly enter your gaming history
Im glad I'm not the only aberrant, sadistic DM who taunts his players by keeping track of PC kills. I'm up to 17 since I last replaced my DM screen two years ago. AoW has contributed most of that, particularly the first few adventures. My players actually kind of enjoy it, and I swear some of them are competing to see how many times they can die. I did feel very sorry for the new guy who joined our game a couple of months ago and died twice in his first two nights with the group.
With regard to cheating on rolls, I confess that I do so on very infrequent occasions, usually to avoid TPKs (although I would allow a TPK if the party were incredibly stupid) when I have miscalculated how tough an encounter is. On even more infrequent occasions I've fudged a saving throw or attack roll in favor of the bad guys when the group is having far too easy a time of it. More frequently, I will jack up the baddies' stats instead, a far better way of restoring balance.
As a DM, my opinion is that the bottom line is to make sure the players are having fun, and occasionally that requires bending reality a bit to keep the game challenging, but not impossible.
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Im glad I'm not the only aberrant, sadistic DM who taunts his players by keeping track of PC kills. I'm up to 17 since I last replaced my DM screen two years ago. AoW has contributed most of that, particularly the first few adventures. My players actually kind of enjoy it, and I swear some of them are competing to see how many times they can die...
Using such "taunting" methods does depend on the good-naturedness of your players. I know I wouldn't get away with such tactics as most of my players are very competitive and hold a grudge far too easily. They'd make my life miserable or drop out of the game entirely.
With regard to cheating on rolls, I confess that I do so on very infrequent occasions, usually to avoid TPKs (although I would allow a TPK if the party were incredibly stupid) when I have miscalculated how tough an encounter is. On even more infrequent occasions I've fudged a saving throw or attack roll in favor of the bad guys when the group is having far too easy a time of it. More frequently, I will jack up the baddies' stats instead, a far better way of restoring balance.
As a DM, my opinion is that the bottom line is to make sure the players are having fun, and occasionally that requires bending reality a bit to keep the game challenging, but not impossible.
Well said, Brian. One cannot forget either, that we the DMs are in it to have "fun" too. If I feel my time investment in a game is getting short-changed, "DMs can curve dice rolls whenever necessary" becomes my mantra. The reverse is true for the players. A player that has built a character from level one, invested time and energy into making the character an integral part of the story, I'm not going to wipe that PC out with some uber-flukey die roll sequence. My other mantra, "third time counts no matter what" then comes to play. I'll disregard the "kill" roll, roll a second time ignoring the result, and roll a third time. If the result is still "kill", oh well. It was meant to be. Players appreciate this attempt to keep their investment a going concern, especially in my games where raise deads are only given to those that are pious and worthy. No Curative Magic Wal-Marts in my games...
I offered my thoughts on a way to avert Jeremy's original bitterness about his encounter. Bitter DMs turn into poor DMs in my experience. Others have presented other valid options to rethink the bitterness by moving forward. The bottom line is simply, are you still bitter Jeremy? Or is it all "good" now?
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I won't be holding it against them (But it has allowed to be grumpy for no apparent reason). However one of them did dare to ask "I don't suppose the dragons skin survived the destruction spell. You know for money purposes". I just sat there and glared at him.
I'll let them have there victory and let them continue without altering things against them. I'll be fair. But the next pc death will be giggling time.